Riots in Missouri - Part 2

[cronosred]

No. White people are supposed to recognize that being white means that you are born with certain privileges that non-whites don't get, they are supposed to not make the fallacy of holding impoverished communities of color to inapplicable standards, and they are supposed to use that knowledge to help communities of color dismantle this oppressive system and use the privileges offered to whites by this system to help the cause in ways that people of color cannot, both on a micro and macro level.

Where the hell our my privileges because someone seriously forgot to give me mine.

 

[Feenix]

No. White people are supposed to recognize that being white means that you are born with certain privileges that non-whites don't get, they are supposed to not make the fallacy of holding impoverished communities of color to inapplicable standards, and they are supposed to use that knowledge to help communities of color dismantle this oppressive system and use the privileges offered to whites by this system to help the cause in ways that people of color cannot, both on a micro and macro level.

Are you serious? What exactly do you do on a daily basis to help "dismantle this oppressive system?"

How's the weather up there on your soapbox?

 

[The Question]

Where the hell our my privileges because someone seriously forgot to give me mine.

White privilege doesn't mean that white people never have problems or ****** lives, but it does mean that they have certain advantages that non-whites do not. You are, statistically, less likely to be shot and killed by a police officer or a gun owner than a black or latino person. You are much more likely to be hired for a job or accepted into college than a black or latino person with the same qualifications. Being born white means you're much more likely to be born in a low crime neighborhood and a quality school district (although of course it doesn't always work out that way). And if you ever get into legal trouble, the you're likely to get a less harsh sentence than a black or latino person with otherwise equal circumstances charged with the same crime.

 

[The Question]

Are you serious? What exactly do you do on a daily basis to help "dismantle this oppressive system?"

For starters? Acknowledge that it exists. Speak out against it openly. Start a dialogue with people who are victims of that system and listen to their stories. On an interpersonal level, if you hear someone say something racist or sexist, call them out on it. If someone is promoting an ideology of reinforcing the system as it is, talk to them about it, express a different viewpoint to them. If you see a woman or a person of color being harassed in public, stand up for them if you feel that it is safe to do so. On election day, try to vote in a manner that will help to alleviate the problems with the system if that's an option. If you have the time and the resources, get involved with an activist group or some kind of charity. If you don't, then stay a part of the conversation when you can. Obviously, not everyone can go knee deep into activism. People have school or work or families that take up their day. But everyone has enough time to spare to at least lend their voice to the conversation, especially these days with the internet.

How's the view from your soapbox?

Soapboxes aren't very big, so the same as yours I would expect.

 

[Howlett]

1: Not by themselves, but you probably had ancestors who were a passive or active part in that system.

2: You shouldn't be "held responsible," but you should recognize that you continue to reap the benefits of the system that was created to cater to your group and you should work to rectify the problem in whatever ways you can. You didn't create this system, but pretending that it doesn't exist and not at least vocally challenging it does help to perpetuate it.

Interesting you say that since you don't even know my heritage and I've said multiple times that racism exists. I guess I need to sing a song about it for you?

 

[cronosred]

White privilege doesn't mean that white people never have problems or ****** lives, but it does mean that they have certain advantages that non-whites do not. You are, statistically, less likely to be shot and killed by a police officer or a gun owner than a black or latino person. You are much more likely to be hired for a job or accepted into college than a black or latino person with the same qualifications. Being born white means you're much more likely to be born in a low crime neighborhood and a quality school district (although of course it doesn't always work out that way). And if you ever get into legal trouble, the you're likely to get a less harsh sentence than a black or latino person with otherwise equal circumstances charged with the same crime.

You and many others don't seem to realize that a great many people don't fit perfectly into your statistics just because their skin is a certain color. Do any of you see that your complaining about the very thing your doing yourselves? Your lumping people into a group because of the color of their skin and trying to find any reason to justify it. And you wonder why people aren't running to your sides, why should we when all you do is condemn us whether we have done anything wrong or not?

 

[The Question]

Interesting you say that since you don't even know my heritage and I've said multiple times that racism exists.

Since you kept saying "my relatives" and "my ancestors" when the conversation was about the actions of white people's ancestors, I assumed that you meant that you are white. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

And yes, you have said multiple times that racism exists. But you seem to be denying that systemic racism exists, or that there is an inherent power imbalance that gives white people being racist about non-whites a very different connotation from non-whites having prejudices about whites. Again, if I misunderstood you, I apologize.

I guess I need to sing a song about it for you?

I don't know what that means.

 

[Feenix]

For starters? Acknowledge that it exists. Speak out against it openly. Start a dialogue with people who are victims of that system and listen to their stories. On an interpersonal level, if you hear someone say something racist or sexist, call them out on it. If someone is promoting an ideology of reinforcing the system as it is, talk to them about it, express a different viewpoint to them. If you see a woman or a person of color being harassed in public, stand up for them if you feel that it is safe to do so. On election day, try to vote in a manner that will help to alleviate the problems with the system if that's an option. If you have the time and the resources, get involved with an activist group or some kind of charity. If you don't, then stay a part of the conversation when you can. Obviously, not everyone can go knee deep into activism. People have school or work or families that take up their day. But everyone has enough time to spare to at least lend their voice to the conversation, especially these days with the internet.



Soapboxes aren't very big, so the same as yours I would expect.

If you see anyone being harassed in public, you should stand up for them. I don't see how that is specific to minorities.

As for the rest, that's fine. But it speaks more to being a good person than trying to dismantle a system.

I think these were all very fluffy, broad examples that won't dismantle any system. People already do these things and nothing changes.

The change has to come from within the communities, but they have to be united. It has to be a revolution. Historically speaking, any big changes have come from the oppressed group, not the majority. Rise up and fight and stop blaming your problems on other people otherwise you'll never get rid of them.

 

[Howlett]

Since you kept saying "my relatives" and "my ancestors" when the conversation was about the actions of white people's ancestors, I assumed that you meant that you are white. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

And yes, you have said multiple times that racism exists. But you seem to be denying that systemic racism exists, or that there is an inherent power imbalance that gives white people being racist about non-whites a very different connotation from non-whites having prejudices about whites. Again, if I misunderstood you, I apologize.



I don't know what that means.

You're confusing me with someone else as I've never said such things and you quoted my words with someone else's name.

 

[The Question]

You and many others don't seem to realize that a great many people don't fit perfectly into your statistics just because their skin is a certain color. Do any of you see that your complaining about the very thing your doing yourselves? Your lumping people into a group because of the color of their skin and trying to find any reason to justify it. And you wonder why people aren't running to your sides, why should we when all you do is condemn us whether we have done anything wrong or not?

I haven't been condemning anyone for anything. Al I've said is that being white offers certain privileges that non-whites don't enjoy. And the statistics back that statement up. Obviously, there are still plenty of white people who deal with tremendous hardships in their lives and get mistreated by the system. If that is the case for you, you have my deepest sympathies.

 

[The Question]

You're confusing me with someone else as I've never said such things and you quoted my words with someone else's name.

That was a typo.

 

[Howlett]

Since you kept saying "my relatives" and "my ancestors" when the conversation was about the actions of white people's ancestors, I assumed that you meant that you are white. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

I've never said anything about my ancestors. I've only mentioned personal responsibility and I shouldn't be held responsible for anyone's actions but my own.

And yes, you have said multiple times that racism exists. But you seem to be denying that systemic racism exists, or that there is an inherent power imbalance that gives white people being racist about non-whites a very different connotation from non-whites having prejudices about whites. Again, if I misunderstood you, I apologize.

Define non-whites. I'm a mutt. I'm Irish, Cherokee, and English for the most parts. I look white mostly I guess, but am I?

I don't know what that means.

Just trying to make a bad joke, sorry. I was going to sing you a song of my people...but I don't really have people.

 

[The Shape]

Are you serious? What exactly do you do on a daily basis to help "dismantle this oppressive system?"

I've heard that blocking traffic on major highways and laying down on the floor in major chain stores helps.

 

[The Question]

If you see anyone being harassed in public, you should stand up for them. I don't see how that is specific to minorities.

As for the rest, that's fine. But it speaks more to being a good person than trying to dismantle a system.

Well dismantling the system is a good thing to do, so I'm not sure how that's a meaningful distinction.

I think these were all very fluffy, broad examples that won't dismantle any system. People already do these things and nothing changes.

1: Nowhere near enough people do these things.

2: Part of what perpetuates the system is the people who believe that there's nothing wrong with it. The more people who speak out against it and engage in a dialogue about it means that more people will, slowly but surely, be swayed in their opinion or will grow up questioning the way that things are.

The change has to come from within the communities, but they have to be united. It has to be a revolution. Historically speaking, any big changes have come from the oppressed group, not the majority. Rise up and fight and stop blaming your problems on other people otherwise you'll never get rid of them.

But they also need outside support and allies. There needs to be enough members of the dominant group who agree with them if the dominant group is going to be forced to change their ways. And members of the dominant group can do a lot with the privileges and resources that they have to help the whole process along.

As for bigger or more concrete ways of helping, I can't say because I don't know your situation or resources.

 

[Howlett]

Well dismantling the system is a good thing to do, so I'm not sure how that's a meaningful distinction.



1: Nowhere near enough people do these things.

People are afraid. It's not a racist thing, people are scared. We're on a superhero message board, but the general public is not ready to be superheroes, and that does make me sad, because they absolutely should. I've been beaten up before for defending a friend, and I've had a friend save me from getting beat up. This is how it should be.

2: Part of what perpetuates the system is the people who believe that there's nothing wrong with it. The more people who speak out against it and engage in a dialogue about it means that more people will, slowly but surely, be swayed in their opinion or will grow up questioning the way that things are.



But they also need outside support and allies. There needs to be enough members of the dominant group who agree with them if the dominant group is going to be forced to change their ways. And members of the dominant group can do a lot with the privileges and resources that they have to help the whole process along.

As for bigger or more concrete ways of helping, I can't say because I don't know your situation or resources.

I can't speak to larger sources because I dont have them. All we can do is have our kids be friends and not ignore racial tensions, but eliminate them when they pop up.

 

[Schlosser85]

No. White people are supposed to recognize that being white means that you are born with certain privileges that non-whites don't get, they are supposed to not make the fallacy of holding impoverished communities of color to inapplicable standards, and they are supposed to use that knowledge to help communities of color dismantle this oppressive system and use the privileges offered to whites by this system to help the cause in ways that people of color cannot, both on a micro and macro level.

How about I'll decide what I'm "supposed" to do.

Also, I don't "owe" anyone anything.

 

[The Question]

How about I'll decide what I'm "supposed" to do.

Well, for starters, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. People decide what other people are supposed to do all the time. That's how laws get written, and everyone has a personal moral code that determines what they and others are and are not supposed to do. It's generally accepted that if a person sees another person who is in trouble and it is within their power to help, they are supposed to do so. So saying what people are supposed to do is not inherently unreasonable.

Second, what do you have against doing any of the things I described?

Also, I don't "owe" anyone anything.

I never used the word "owe." But, since we're bringing it into the conversation: Yes you do. Everyone owes everyone. Human beings are inherently social animals. There is no way anyone could survive in this world completely by themselves without using anything that they got from somebody else. Our survival depends on each other, and we owe it to each other to help one another get by and to help make make our environment as non-****** as possible.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I'm always amused by the way white people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up with certain privileges that have the potential to blind them to the plights that people of other races go through daily, seem to act so often as if they have been personally affronted and that they are being made to 'feel guilty' about it.

No one is asking you to feel guilty about it, just that you recognise that such privileges exist, and therefore other people's lived experiences may be harder than you. As fun as it is to claim that others just need to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' or that you are just as oppressed as they are, you are not.

Speaking as a white, straight guy in Australia, while we don't quite have the same level of race problems in our country, I assure you that they are there. And as a straight white guy, I am accepted as the 'default' human being - I recognise that some of my non-white, and female friends, and particularly my non-straight and non-white female friend, all have lived experiences that see people second guess said experiences, cast doubt upon their daily intentions, and treat their opinions as less legitimate than if I had voiced them, despite said opinions stemming from their actual professions.

You are not being told to feel guilty. Trust me when I say that no one thinks you are so important as to need to feel guilty on behalf of another race. You are not that important.

What you are being asked is to recognise that racism and oppression exist in systematic, engrained cultural ways. They intersect in interesting ways - a homeless white guy might be subject to more suspicion and poor treatment than an upper class black man, but nevertheless distinct patterns emerge that operate upon racial, sexual, and class lines.

To recognise that such unfortunate systemic patterns exists means that you yourself can better yourself as a person by taking such things into consideration instead of thinking of people as existing upon the same flat slate. It means that you won't be part of the categories that second guess people's own lived experiences and gaslight them just because their own life story does not match up with yours. It means that even if you don't do any activism or work against oppression, you at least won't be part of the problem. It means attempting to recognise that you have blind spots, and aiming to correct them.

Not a race but a gendered example that nevertheless works, when I was in college (Aus colleges come before uni), a female friend of mine after a group conversation pulled me aside and told me that she was uncomfortable with how I never took a fact that she said seriously until another guy corroborated it, despite never doing the same in reverse. Not only that but she was the only one studying the actual subject being discussed. Since then I was made aware of how many women even in their professional fields are second guessed, and so from that conversation on I have made a conscious effort to avoid that, to the point where now I don't.

I was not being made to feel guilty, I was simply made aware of a cultural bias that pre-existed me, but that I was nevertheless a participant in perpetuating it. Recognising that not only made me a better person, but has made my conversations more interesting.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I've heard that blocking traffic on major highways and laying down on the floor in major chain stores helps.

Well...there are less peaceful ways, I suppose...

Simple fact of the matter though is chokeholds aren't "illegal" for the police like some think. They are simply against the NYPD protocol or policy. I posted about it in the Abuse of Power thread here:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=30240841&postcount=629

So until they put something on the books that actually does make it illegal technically the officer didn't break the law even though most of us know it was wrong and he should be charged with a crime

True. It's not legally banned, just banned by the NYPD on a protocol level. There's no law, and probably never will be. There are also other police departments in other states that it's part of their protocol, as well.

But, I'd point out as an aside that one would think it'd lead to something on a administrative level and not a legal one. Like unpaid suspension or firing or something.

It's worth noting that the officer had used the chokehold maneuver prior to Garner's death, and the NYPD was aware. And there was also an illegal strip search he'd conducted, that the state of New York had to pay out to the victim, as well.

For me, pointing out he used a chokehold, aside from the manner he'd killed Garner, also calls into question how the NYPD even holds officers responsible on an administrative level. That, and there's also a couple of strange and really out there assertions that it wasn't even a chokehold.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't know. No one does or we'd have fixed it by now.

Cops are a different animal altogether. Could you imagine going to work everyday wondering if you might be attacked and killed that day?

I don't think most police officers go to work everyday and wonder if they will be attacked and killed. And, I believe that's the wrong approach for police officers to have even consider going into that job. It's policing, not soldiering. Soldiers go out, and everyday wonder if they will be attacked and killed that day. Soldiers do, and rightfully so.

Police officers, the one's we're talking about, are working in American communities. Modern civilized communities. And we're not talking about Gotham City or Robocop's Detroit, either. Not even 1980's New York, which was basically Year One Gotham City.

A police officer that is wondering, everyday, if they will be attacked and killed...is probably going to cause more bad than good. You'll probably get cases of PTSD, and maybe needing to be taken off duty and such.

I just want to keep things in perspective here.

 

[Howlett]

I don't think most police officers go to work everyday and wonder if they will be attacked and killed. And, I believe that's the wrong approach for police officers to have even consider going into that job. It's policing, not soldiering. Soldiers go out, and everyday wonder if they will be attacked and killed that day. Soldiers do, and rightfully so.

Police officers, the one's we're talking about, are working in American communities. Modern civilized communities. And we're not talking about Gotham City or Robocop's Detroit, either. Not even 1980's New York, which was basically Year One Gotham City.

A police officer that is wondering, everyday, if they will be attacked and killed...is probably going to cause more bad than good. You'll probably get cases of PTSD, and maybe needing to be taken off duty and such.

I just want to keep things in perspective here.

You need better perspective because it's absolutely true. You don't need to be a cop in a crime city to worry about being killed. Every single day you can come across someone or a situation that kills you or puts your life in danger. This isn't even a question. Police officers' jobs are dangerous. "Is this random person I'm pulling over going to shoot me?' it could and has happened to officers before.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

You need better perspective because it's absolutely true. You don't need to be a cop in a crime city to worry about being killed. Every single day you can come across someone or a situation that kills you or puts your life in danger. This isn't even a question. Police officers' jobs are dangerous. "Is this random person I'm pulling over going to shoot me?' it could and has happened to officers before.

Police officers jobs are dangerous. But, they're not soldiers. They need to protect themselves, but it's not war.

There are ways to exercise precaution, and protect themselves through sensible means. Protocols and training. For it to be in the back of their mind whenever they're entering a suspicious situation, makes sense. For them to stop a guy in a car and be ready makes sense. But, in the end we need to keep in mind that policing isn't warfare. If we can do more to remember that, I think it'd be better for everyone in the end.

Maybe that's the major problem going on here. It's supposed to be a community endeavor...but both sides see killers.

 

[SuperT]

I'm always amused by the way white people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up with certain privileges that have the potential to blind them to the plights that people of other races go through daily, seem to act so often as if they have been personally affronted and that they are being made to 'feel guilty' about it.

No one is asking you to feel guilty about it, just that you recognise that such privileges exist, and therefore other people's lived experiences may be harder than you. As fun as it is to claim that others just need to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' or that you are just as oppressed as they are, you are not.

Speaking as a white, straight guy in Australia, while we don't quite have the same level of race problems in our country, I assure you that they are there. And as a straight white guy, I am accepted as the 'default' human being - I recognise that some of my non-white, and female friends, and particularly my non-straight and non-white female friend, all have lived experiences that see people second guess said experiences, cast doubt upon their daily intentions, and treat their opinions as less legitimate than if I had voiced them, despite said opinions stemming from their actual professions.

You are not being told to feel guilty. Trust me when I say that no one thinks you are so important as to need to feel guilty on behalf of another race. You are not that important.

What you are being asked is to recognise that racism and oppression exist in systematic, engrained cultural ways. They intersect in interesting ways - a homeless white guy might be subject to more suspicion and poor treatment than an upper class black man, but nevertheless distinct patterns emerge that operate upon racial, sexual, and class lines.

To recognise that such unfortunate systemic patterns exists means that you yourself can better yourself as a person by taking such things into consideration instead of thinking of people as existing upon the same flat slate. It means that you won't be part of the categories that second guess people's own lived experiences and gaslight them just because their own life story does not match up with yours. It means that even if you don't do any activism or work against oppression, you at least won't be part of the problem. It means attempting to recognise that you have blind spots, and aiming to correct them.

Not a race but a gendered example that nevertheless works, when I was in college (Aus colleges come before uni), a female friend of mine after a group conversation pulled me aside and told me that she was uncomfortable with how I never took a fact that she said seriously until another guy corroborated it, despite never doing the same in reverse. Not only that but she was the only one studying the actual subject being discussed. Since then I was made aware of how many women even in their professional fields are second guessed, and so from that conversation on I have made a conscious effort to avoid that, to the point where now I don't.

I was not being made to feel guilty, I was simply made aware of a cultural bias that pre-existed me, but that I was nevertheless a participant in perpetuating it. Recognising that not only made me a better person, but has made my conversations more interesting.

Wow, bravo friend. This needs to be stickied to the top of every page of this thread.

 

[Howlett]

I'm always amused by the way white people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up with certain privileges that have the potential to blind them to the plights that people of other races go through daily, seem to act so often as if they have been personally affronted and that they are being made to 'feel guilty' about it.

That's interesting. I'm always amused by the way black people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up thinking white people are their oppressors and the reason they are held back in life.

No one is asking you to feel guilty about it, just that you recognise that such privileges exist, and therefore other people's lived experiences may be harder than you. As fun as it is to claim that others just need to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' or that you are just as oppressed as they are, you are not.

You don't know what a singular person's life experience is. There are plently of poor white people who had to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps', or who couldn't. Your ignorance speaks volumes. You have a serious race issue when the real problem is poverty.

Speaking as a white, straight guy in Australia, while we don't quite have the same level of race problems in our country, I assure you that they are there. And as a straight white guy, I am accepted as the 'default' human being - I recognise that some of my non-white, and female friends, and particularly my non-straight and non-white female friend, all have lived experiences that see people second guess said experiences, cast doubt upon their daily intentions, and treat their opinions as less legitimate than if I had voiced them, despite said opinions stemming from their actual professions.

You are not being told to feel guilty. Trust me when I say that no one thinks you are so important as to need to feel guilty on behalf of another race. You are not that important.

What you are being asked is to recognise that racism and oppression exist in systematic, engrained cultural ways. They intersect in interesting ways - a homeless white guy might be subject to more suspicion and poor treatment than an upper class black man, but nevertheless distinct patterns emerge that operate upon racial, sexual, and class lines.

To recognise that such unfortunate systemic patterns exists means that you yourself can better yourself as a person by taking such things into consideration instead of thinking of people as existing upon the same flat slate. It means that you won't be part of the categories that second guess people's own lived experiences and gaslight them just because their own life story does not match up with yours. It means that even if you don't do any activism or work against oppression, you at least won't be part of the problem. It means attempting to recognise that you have blind spots, and aiming to correct them.

Not a race but a gendered example that nevertheless works, when I was in college (Aus colleges come before uni), a female friend of mine after a group conversation pulled me aside and told me that she was uncomfortable with how I never took a fact that she said seriously until another guy corroborated it, despite never doing the same in reverse. Not only that but she was the only one studying the actual subject being discussed. Since then I was made aware of how many women even in their professional fields are second guessed, and so from that conversation on I have made a conscious effort to avoid that, to the point where now I don't.

I was not being made to feel guilty, I was simply made aware of a cultural bias that pre-existed me, but that I was nevertheless a participant in perpetuating it. Recognising that not only made me a better person, but has made my conversations more interesting.

That's not at all what's being said. White privilege is exactly = to white guilt. it's BS, and I think it's nonsense.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

That's interesting. I'm always amused by the way black people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up thinking white people are their oppressors and the reason they are held back in life.


You don't know what a singular person's life experience is. There are plently of poor white people who had to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps', or who couldn't. Your ignorance speaks volumes. You have a serious race issue when the real problem is poverty.


That's not at all what's being said. White privilege is exactly = to white guilt. it's BS, and I think it's nonsense.

I think they're different. But, I guess I can see how someone could think they're the same. But, I do think they're different.

That's interesting. I'm always amused by the way black people, upon being told that they, by and large, have been brought up thinking white people are their oppressors and the reason they are held back in life.

White people?

Or the social system they live in? Because for most minorities, it's that. That's what gets pointed to. Not 'evil white people'.