Riots in Missouri

[summerteeth]

Nope, I really think these protestors are in the wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. They've really rushed to judgement before all the facts are in. They have every right to protest, but I do not support them. I also don't understand why they continue to protest at night, it's really making things unsafe. If they just protested in the day, it would allow the police to really handle these agitators and outsiders.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If the officer was being charged at, then he's justified pulling out whatever weapon he has on hand to bring that guy down, sorry. 30-feet is nothing for any young man in good health to cover at running speed, and this isn't Final Fantasy, where the game pauses temporarily while you choose a weapon from your pull-down inventory.

It wasn't 30 feet. That is when Brown was stopped. So if he shot him six times and Brown was charging, he was further away then 30 feet when he started. And I don't know if I'd call Brown in good shape, but that doesn't really matter.

The audio recorded version telling the story are saying that the officer already had his gun out when Brown was running away and that he even may have shot at Brown before Brown turned. If that is true, that is a problem.

Also, I don't know how tall Brown was, but he seems pretty tall. Perhaps the officer is as well, but I am having trouble imagining he shot him him inthe top of his head simply because Brown had his head down running towards him.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Nope, I really think these protestors are in the wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. They've really rushed to judgement before all the facts are in. They have every right to protest, but I do not support them.

The Michael Brown situation made a simmering problem boil over. I don't want to minimize the seriousness of someone losing their life--not at all--but this goes beyond the events of that night. Ferguson has a lot of dialogue and work ahead of it even after the hot emotions subside.

 

[summerteeth]

It wasn't 30 feet. That is when Brown was stopped. So if he shot him six times and Brown was charging, he was further away then 30 feet when he started. And I don't know if I'd call Brown in good shape, but that doesn't really matter.

The audio recorded version telling the story are saying that the officer already had his gun out when Brown was running away and that he even may have shot at Brown before Brown turned. If that is true, that is a problem.

Also, I don't know how tall Brown was, but he seems pretty tall. Perhaps the officer is as well, but I am having trouble imagining he shot him him inthe top of his head simply because Brown had his head down running towards him.

He was shot in the eye first that would have caused his head to drop hence the final shot being on the top of the head.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Michael Brown situation made a simmering problem boil over. I don't want to minimize their seriousness of someone losing their life--not at all--but this goes beyond the events of that night. Ferguson has a lot of dialogue and work ahead of it even after the hot emotions subside.

Yep. The stats in Ferguson don't exactly paint a pretty picture.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He was shot in the eye first that would have caused his head to drop hence the final shot being on the top of the head.

I am not exactly sure of the angle of the bullet, but he would need to be dropping at a drastic rate to get nailed right on the crown of his head.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

https://***********/ChristineDByers/statuses/501556693382094848

"over a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version..."


Again eye witnesses have to be taken with a grain of salt, but still...

Do we even know what the cop's version is, though?

I don't think there's even been an official detailed version of the cop's side released yet.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Do we even know what the cop's version is, though?

I don't think there's even been an official detailed version of the cop's side released yet.

We have his "friend" who was either on tv or the radio explaining. That is as "official" as it has got.

 

[summerteeth]

Yep. The stats in Ferguson don't exactly paint a pretty picture.

And what are those?

 

[Howlett]

It wasn't 30 feet. That is when Brown was stopped. So if he shot him six times and Brown was charging, he was further away then 30 feet when he started. And I don't know if I'd call Brown in good shape, but that doesn't really matter.

The audio recorded version telling the story are saying that the officer already had his gun out when Brown was running away and that he even may have shot at Brown before Brown turned. If that is true, that is a problem.

Not if he was assaulted and had his orbital bone broken, which has just been released.

Also, I don't know how tall Brown was, but he seems pretty tall. Perhaps the officer is as well, but I am having trouble imagining he shot him him inthe top of his head simply because Brown had his head down running towards him.

Falling forward, it makes perfect sense.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And what are those?

http://www.ibtimes.com/ferguson-mis...4-blacks-arrested-4-times-much-whites-1658846

In Ferguson, Missouri, blacks outnumber whites by more than 2-to-1. But African-Americans are arrested at a rate roughly four times higher than their white neighbors, according to Census data and Ferguson crime statistics released by the Missouri Department of Public Safety. Ferguson's arrest rate of blacks outpaces national and state numbers. The St. Louis suburb has been the site of unrest and protests in the wake of the police-involved shooting of Mike Brown, an unarmed black teenager, over the weekend.

About 14,000 blacks live in Ferguson, compared with more than 6,500 whites, according to U.S. Census data for the Missouri city. From January to April of this year, there were 27 whites arrested in the city compared with 217 blacks, or about 8.1 times as many black arrests as white arrests.

The Missouri Uniform Crime Reporting Program lists 36 offenses in its data, including murder and runaways under 18 years old. Most black people were arrested under a category called "all other offenses." In all, that represented 79 of the 217 arrests involving black people. At least 65 black suspects were arrested for larceny, the second largest category. In contrast, 13 whites were arrested for the same crime, meaning five times as many blacks were arrested for larceny as whites. Seventeen blacks were arrested on marijuana possession charges, the third-highest arrest total among African-Americans; only two whites were arrested on that offense.

Ferguson’s black-to-white arrest ratio is much higher than that of St. Louis County, which includes Ferguson. At the county level, black suspects were arrested at a rate about five times higher than whites, according to Department of Public Safety data, or 21,734 blacks compared with 12,948 whites. For Missouri as a whole, which is about 80 percent white, blacks were arrested at a rate more than three times higher than whites.

Nationwide, blacks are nearly three times as likely to get arrested as white people, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

http://www.ibtimes.com/mike-brown-s...nt-had-history-misconduct-allegations-1661674

In the months before Michael Brown was shot, what was crime like in Ferguson, Missouri? We don’t know because the Ferguson Police Department was one of the 23 law enforcement agencies in the state to have its crime statistics rejected for “major errors in data” by the Missouri Department of Public Safety, the agency that runs Missouri’s Uniform Crime Reporting system.

The bungling of the crime statistics was the latest black eye on the Ferguson Police Department, which has been sued twice in federal court for alleged civil rights violations since 2008, court records show. One case was dismissed and a ruling on the other is pending. A civil suit was also filed against the department stemming from a 2009 incident in which a resident was charged with destruction of property because he bled on the uniforms of officers who allegedly beat him, the Daily Beast reported. Arguments in that case are scheduled for December.

About 3.5 percent of Missouri law enforcement agencies who send in crime stats to public safety have seen their most recent submissions rejected, an International Business Times analysis of the data indicated. To put it another way, there are 651 local and county police departments that report crime to UCR. Only 23 had “major errors in data,” meaning they were sent back to the departments and cannot be viewed by the public until they are corrected, Kyle Comer, manager of the UCR unit, told IBT.

“There’s some sort of discrepancy in the math” for the crime stats to be rejected, he said, such as arrest totals not adding up. Comer wasn’t speaking specifically about Ferguson’s rejected crime stats.

The police department faced scrutiny over its tactics in dispersing protesters demonstrating in the wake of the Brown shooting, with officers in riot gear throwing tear gas and shooting rubber bullets during protests that had been described as peaceful. It’s not the first time the department has been accused of infringing on the rights of those it’s supposed to serve and protect.

In March 2008, Andre Porter sued the Ferguson Police Department alleging detectives submitted “erroneous” and “fraudulent” probable cause statements alleging he committed two bank robberies in October 2007. Porter claimed a detective never read him his Miranda rights while he was being interrogated and witnesses to the robbery never picked him out of a live lineup. Porter said the same detective “presented an erroneous probable cause statement to secure an indictment along with prejudice and bias judgment to enhance bail.” Porter said another suspect was chosen in a lineup twice by the second bank robbery victim, and a detective “falsified and introduced fraudulent evidence” in the case.

The lawsuit was dismissed by a judge in April 2008 because it didn’t “contain any allegations that a policy or custom of the city of Ferguson was responsible for the alleged violations of plaintiff’s constitutional rights,” court records show. The records indicated Porter wanted to appeal but didn't have the funds to do so.

In December 2013, Eugene McAllister filed a civil rights lawsuit against Ferguson police Officer Eddie Boyd and three members of the St. Louis County Police Department, stemming from a car chase in January 2011 in which officers allegedly used excessive force. McAllister said the officers stopped the car in which he was riding and the Ferguson officer smashed the window near the seat he was occupying even though he had put his hands up, saying, “I give up.” Despite his pleas, McAllister alleged the officer “started to grabing [sic] me and pulling and punching me in the head and face and body.” He also claimed a dog from a K-9 unit bit him in the arms, head and legs, and he suffered a broken finger from the officer’s actions.

The case is pending.

Not hard to understand why the citizens wouldn't believe the cops or their investigation.

 

[Asgard]

And the Cop gave chase gun drawn, Brown turned to attack account- Which media ignored but we ourselves have heard one clear as day example of, from an eye witness, independently corroborating the cops story. \

This is a straight up lie on your part. That audio is not clear as day. You can barely understand the guy amidst other people talking and the way he's speaking, his version of the story includes Michael Brown being inside of the police car before escaping and running away, AND you forget to mention that in that same video, about 4 minutes before that guy speaks, you hear another witness say that Michael Brown had his hands in the air and the officer still shoots him.

 

[Breogan]

This is a straight up lie on your part. That audio is not clear as day.

The links been provided, it's clear . http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

Witness :
"Then the next thing I know he[Brown] doubled back toward him[cop] cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –... The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him..."

"HE KEPT COMING TOWARD HIM". THAT is clearly stated.

I believe the police department said the body was 30 feet from the cop car, which is where the officer was apparently standing. If that is true, that means even if Brown was charging, he was a long ways away when he started, as he was far away when he stopped.

Link/Who said it's where the officer was standing, or did you make that up ?
It's been repeatedly stated the officer gave chase.
Even key witness his friend said "once he got out of the car he perused my friend" he was approaching towards him, not standing at the car as you say.
1:55 [YT]XATTgfiY9Io[/YT]
"HE PURSUED MY FRIEND" That is clear as day.

Do you have a link to where the police said he was still standing at the car?

Until then, the forensics, where the bullet casings are, etc. will determine where they were in relation to each-other.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not if he was assaulted and had his orbital bone broken, which has just been released.
Falling forward, it makes perfect sense.

Who had their orbital bone broken?

Also if he was shot six times, and that shot came while he was falling over. That seems overzealous in the least.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

If the officer was being charged at, then he's justified pulling out whatever weapon he has on hand to bring that guy down, sorry. 30-feet is nothing for any young man in good health to cover at running speed, and this isn't Final Fantasy, where the game pauses temporarily while you choose a weapon from your pull-down inventory.

I disagree. If he KNOWS he's unarmed, and more than 30 feet away...why fire six times? Is the suspect a zombie? Will the officer be infected if he's bitten? Why not go for a leg shot or a warning shot?

I feel like because it is a police officer, someone whose had training and has to be prepared for such a scenario...the "he feared for his life and panicked" defense doesn't work because he's a trained officer and the suspect was unarmed.

Don't know, I just hope the evidence presented is clear either way.
If the cop is found guilty, I hope he's arrested and convicted quickly, so everyone can start rebuilding, beginning with their police force.
Who everyone needs to feel actually represents them, their interests and are people they can trust.
GJ may just call for his immediate arrest, I actually hope that's the case, so the building starts.
But if that's not where the evidence points too, "blame" is going to be a lot harder to assign.
Some will look outward, some will look in.

I'm not expecting a conviction, and I think most people shouldn't either. The people who probably are expecting/hoping for it most have to be Brown's parents. But...I'm fully expecting the officer to walk. Seen this happen enough times to expect it here.

It wasn't 30 feet. That is when Brown was stopped. So if he shot him six times and Brown was charging, he was further away then 30 feet when he started. And I don't know if I'd call Brown in good shape, but that doesn't really matter.

The audio recorded version telling the story are saying that the officer already had his gun out when Brown was running away and that he even may have shot at Brown before Brown turned. If that is true, that is a problem.

Also, I don't know how tall Brown was, but he seems pretty tall. Perhaps the officer is as well, but I am having trouble imagining he shot him him inthe top of his head simply because Brown had his head down running towards him.

Yeah, the number I'd heard (not even sure where from, so it may have not been accurate) was that Brown was about 35 feet away or so when he supposedly charged.

Brown was 6'4, which I believe is why the shot to the crown of the skull is why people are talking about how the trajectory on that one might have worked.

I don't see how the officer was justified in firing six shots, two of which were headshots, at that distance when he knows the suspect is unarmed. If that story is really what the officer is saying, then he's clearly done something wrong.

 

[Howlett]

Who had their orbital bone broken?

The officer, during their initial struggle.

Also if he was shot six times, and that shot came while he was falling over. That seems overzealous in the least.

Not if he's shot the guy four other times and he's still coming at him.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

We have his "friend" who was either on tv or the radio explaining. That is as "official" as it has got.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I've heard that version then.

It still sounds like the officer is in trouble, because that version still seemed to have him screwing up.

 

[Feenix]

In March 2008, Andre Porter sued the Ferguson Police Department alleging detectives submitted “erroneous” and “fraudulent” probable cause statements alleging he committed two bank robberies in October 2007. Porter claimed a detective never read him his Miranda rights while he was being interrogated and witnesses to the robbery never picked him out of a live lineup. Porter said the same detective “presented an erroneous probable cause statement to secure an indictment along with prejudice and bias judgment to enhance bail.” Porter said another suspect was chosen in a lineup twice by the second bank robbery victim, and a detective “falsified and introduced fraudulent evidence” in the case.

The lawsuit was dismissed by a judge in April 2008 because it didn’t “contain any allegations that a policy or custom of the city of Ferguson was responsible for the alleged violations of plaintiff’s constitutional rights,” court records show. The records indicated Porter wanted to appeal but didn't have the funds to do so.

In December 2013, Eugene McAllister filed a civil rights lawsuit against Ferguson police Officer Eddie Boyd and three members of the St. Louis County Police Department, stemming from a car chase in January 2011 in which officers allegedly used excessive force. McAllister said the officers stopped the car in which he was riding and the Ferguson officer smashed the window near the seat he was occupying even though he had put his hands up, saying, “I give up.” Despite his pleas, McAllister alleged the officer “started to grabing [sic] me and pulling and punching me in the head and face and body.” He also claimed a dog from a K-9 unit bit him in the arms, head and legs, and he suffered a broken finger from the officer’s actions.

One was dismissed and the other is pending. This is bad how? Just because these guys say this happened to them, doesn't make it true, especially considering how many erroneous lawsuits are filed every year. If the case was dismissed, that's the end of it. To claim racism or anything of the sort would be ridiculous because people's lawsuits (of every race) get dismissed all the time.

 

[summerteeth]

http://www.ibtimes.com/ferguson-mis...4-blacks-arrested-4-times-much-whites-1658846



http://www.ibtimes.com/mike-brown-s...nt-had-history-misconduct-allegations-1661674



Not hard to understand why the citizens wouldn't believe the cops or their investigation.

Sure it is. That's only if you look at everything through a racial lens and eliminate all other factors. The white population is significantly older than the black population. Obviously, older people are less likely to commit crimes than younger people.

 

[Breogan]

Brown was about 35 feet away or so when he supposedly charged.

Link? Citation?

 

[Pink Ranger]

I disagree. If he KNOWS he's unarmed, and more than 30 feet away...why fire six times? Is the suspect a zombie? Will the officer be infected if he's bitten? Why not go for a leg shot or a warning shot?

I feel like because it is a police officer, someone whose had training and has to be prepared for such a scenario...the "he feared for his life and panicked" defense doesn't work because he's a trained officer and the suspect was unarmed.

There are people on this thread better qualified to speak on this than me, but that statement is, I am sorry, very telling of how deeply flawed your argument is. Shooting someone in the leg/in the air/the weapon out of someone's hand/the tires out from under a car is what cops do in movies. It does not work in real life, there's really no excuse anymore for anybody not knowing that. If a cop fires, it's at your chest. That's a cop's firearm training 101.

I'm not saying the cop is guilty or innocent. But he is empowered to use lethal force in response to a threat of serious bodily harm. A charging man, even armed with nothing more than his bare fists, poses a genuine serious threat of bodily harm. If I am surrounded by a circle with a 30 foot radius on either side of me, and a young man in fairly average health enters that circle already at a running speed I do not have that much time to react.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Link/Who said it's where he was standing.
It's been repeatedly stated the officer gave chase.
Even your key witness said he was approaching towards him not standing at the car as you say.
2:15 [YT]XATTgfiY9Io[/YT]

I was watching the TYT last night and they said the police chief in his first presser said so. I spent a few minutes looking, but can't find the chief's first presser.

The officer "giving chase" doesn't mean he wasn't near his car. He could have started giving chase, stopped, and fired. That makes sense if he started shooting at Brown, Brown turned, charged, and the cop kept firing.

And "my" key witness?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The officer, during their initial struggle.

Not if he's shot the guy four other times and he's still coming at him.

If what's been said about the officer's side is true (but we don't know, since it's all being stonewalled) then Brown was at about 35 feet away when he started charging him.

Brown collapsed and died at 30 feet away.

Could those 5 feet really be described as "he was still coming at him"? The implication would be that he was a tank, absorbing these rounds and still covering ground. But, is 5 feet really that much ground? And at over 30 feet away, the reaction of firing six rounds still seems like too much.

If that's the officer's side, then at the very least he should be fired. That scenario makes the officer seem unable to make the kind of split second decisions an officer should be able to make about assessing a threat, and then responding accordingly.

I mean...that's how it should be. It won't be treated that way, but by the book it ought to.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I'm having a harder time sympathizing with the "protestors" since many are now from outside areas and there just to cause chaos. I support any group's right to protest peacefully, but when they start destroying other people's property, stealing/looting, or attacking others/police, they lose all support from me and I'll side with the law. There are so many better ways to go about things yet many seem intent on keeping the level of agitation up for as long as they want. Until a final accounting of the events happens, protesting this way just seems like a waste.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...be1262-26f3-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

 

[DarthSkywalker]

One was dismissed and the other is pending. This is bad how? Just because these guys say this happened to them, doesn't make it true, especially considering how many erroneous lawsuits are filed every year. If the case was dismissed, that's the end of it. To claim racism or anything of the sort would be ridiculous because people's lawsuits (of every race) get dismissed all the time.

Have you heard the story of the man who was charged with bleeding on the cops uniforms? The cops literally commit perjury on the stand.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...erguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

The remarkable turned inexplicable when Beaird was deposed in a civil case that Davis subsequently brought seeking redress and recompense.

“After Mr. Davis was detained, did you have any blood on you?” asked Davis’ lawyer, James Schottel.

“No, sir,” Beaird replied.

Schottel showed Beaird a copy of the “property damage” complaint.

“Is that your signature as complainant?” the lawyer asked.

“It is, sir,” the cop said.

“And what do you allege that Mr. Davis did unlawfully in this one?” the lawyer asked.

“Transferred blood to my uniform while Davis was resisting,” the cop said.

“And didn’t I ask you earlier in this deposition if Mr. Davis got blood on your uniform?”

“You did, sir.”

“And didn’t you respond no?”

“Correct. I did.”

Beaird seemed to be either admitting perjury or committing it. The depositions of other officers suggested that the “property damage” charges were not just bizarre, but trumped up.

“There was no blood on my uniform,” said Police Officer Christopher Pillarick.

And then there was Officer Michael White, the one accused of kicking Davis in the head, an allegation he denies, as his fellow officers deny striking Davis. White had reported suffering a bloody nose in the mayhem.

“Did you see Mr. Davis bleeding at all?” the lawyer, Schottel, asked.

“I did not,” White replied.

“Did Mr. Davis get any blood on you while you were in the cell?” Schottel asked.

“No,” White said.

The contradictions between the complaint and the depositions apparently are what prompted the prosecutor to drop the “property damage” allegation. The prosecutor also dropped a felony charge of assault on an officer that had been lodged more than a year after the incident and shortly after Davis filed his civil suit.

Also there is problem that Ferguson's department apparently made it very hard to find complaints against them, as they assigned them not to the officer but the case. Also apparently the officers were allowed to right their own reports and hand them over to the chief for signing off. I'll look for the article on this later if you need it.