Sandman Most Pointless Villian in SM3?

[Dragon]

He could have killed gwen

I repeat: Only if Harry killed MAY or MJ would Peter have been that enraged.

 

[The Master]

I repeat: Only if Harry killed MAY or MJ would Peter have been that enraged.

Exactly.

If Gwen had been introduced in one of the first two films, where there was time for a deeper development of a relationship between them, then maybe he would be that enraged, and even then that would be a long shot because the movie has MJ established as one of the few people that Peter would be driven to that type of rage over, not Gwen.

At this point, she's just a "fling" and no one cares enough about flings that they would want to kill over or die for.

 

[November Rain]

Sandman and venom are potentially equally pointless considering that the only real things needed to tell the same story were

harry
a symbiote
a relatively useful villain like the shocker (that could tell pete about suit's weakness to noise) only cameo though
a random thug shooting someone/captain stacey (show pete's hatred)

with this list, either venom of sandman could have been used and got the same story across.

they were both in my opinion wasted in this edit of the film.

 

[Dragon]

Sandman and venom are potentially equally pointless considering that the only real things needed to tell the same story were

harry
a symbiote
a relatively useful villain like the shocker (that could tell pete about suit's weakness to noise) only cameo though
a random thug shooting someone/captain stacey (show pete's hatred)

with this list, either venom of sandman could have been used and got the same story across.

they were both in my opinion wasted in this edit of the film.

He didn't even know who Captain Stacy was. Why would he be that enraged over his being shot? The fact that some of you figure any damn killing will be enough to push Peter to the edge, says you don't the point of what was going on. Peter isn't that easily enraged. we've seen in the first two films both May and MJ endangered and he never went through the roof.

As for the sound thing, if Peter knew before the final battle that the symbiote was suscpetible to sound, the fight would've been over quite quickly (as they should in thre comics).

 

[November Rain]

But that's the thing, it's not peter being himself it's the symbiote altering pete's perception and making him get aggravated at things he normally wouldn't. Therefore an unarmed man being killed protecting him property would be enough to see similarities with his uncle's death and hence get him to loose it.

you second point is flawed. Just because you are aware of someone's weakness doesn't mean it is applicable in winning a bout. Spidey took out sandman originally with water yet there was no water in the finale. Venom's weakness could have easily been known prior but the ability to produce the required noise would be hard to accomplish...

I don't even mind if it isn't 'loud' sound but if it was solely a unique frequency given off by the chiming of bells (or metal chiming) at a given amplitude. How often are spiderman's weaknesses exploited yet they have no bearing on either the outcome or the length of a bout.

knowing about something doesn't mean you can always prepare for it, movie spidey isn't exactly a prep-time god.

 

[OtepApe]

I don't think Sandman was pointless, just not developed enough. The reason is because they packed in way too much for the movie and wasn't really given any time. Same with Venom. Venom actually being on screen, not the symbiote itself. But even that wasn't much time. They should have cut one of the villains out of the movie and saved them for another movie. My pick would be Venom. Venom can hold a movie on his own, he needed more time for development, but they rushed him in there.

So no, Sandy wasn't pointless at all. His being there felt right, compared to Venom's.

 

[Comicfan]

I don't think Sandman was pointless, just not developed enough. The reason is because they packed in way too much for the movie and wasn't really given any time. Same with Venom. Venom actually being on screen, not the symbiote itself. But even that wasn't much time. They should have cut one of the villains out of the movie and saved them for another movie. My pick would be Venom. Venom can hold a movie on his own, he needed more time for development, but they rushed him in there.

So no, Sandy wasn't pointless at all. His being there felt right, compared to Venom's.

I feel the oposite way... this movie should have been about the simbiote, Peter relationship with (an unseccesfull) MJ, a vengefull Harry, his competition with eddy, the black costume, petter "decent" into darkness, and finally venom (In 2 1/2 hours they could have handled that in a perfect way) But i feel that sandman didn´t have a place in this movie (and yeah, i know about the whole he killed Ben, and peter needed to forgive him-I felt that was unnecesary too-)

They should have make SM3 about the symbiote and save Sandman (with a better story) for SM4 then Venom, or carnage back in SM5

 

[OtepApe]

I feel the oposite way... this movie should have been about the simbiote, Peter relationship with (an unseccesfull) MJ, a vengefull Harry, his competition with eddy, the black costume, petter "decent" into darkness, and finally venom (In 2 1/2 hours they could have handled that in a perfect way) But i feel that sandman didn´t have a place in this movie (and yeah, i know about the whole he killed Ben, and peter needed to forgive him-I felt that was unnecesary too-)

They should have make SM3 about the symbiote and save Sandman (with a better story) for SM4 then Venom, or carnage back in SM5

I didn't like how they made Flint into Ben's killer, I didn't like that one bit. I can agree with you on that.

However, I think the main focus of the movie should have been Harry. His vengence playing out, then his redemption. It should have followed a similar path to Spectacular Spider-man #200. That would have been just right. Have Sandman as the minor villain to the big boy.

They should have saved Venom for 4, that way they could have had more focus on the symbiote, more character time for Brock and Venom. Possibly another minor villain in there aswell.

 

[Crowforge]

Lamest Eddie Brock Ever.

 

[BAMFaly]

While ignoring how awful Venom was for the sake of the topic I have to say that Sandman was a let down also...

I really liked the fx when he was first starting to form and the fight in the security van (apart from the stupid surfing-on-the-door bit) but other than that he was fairly dull and pointless. It's been said before but I really think the main reason that Sandman and Venom were so poor was because of the lack of character development.

Also, even though I was dreading seeing Harry and his Nightsurfer/GG2/whatever he was called I thought that he was the best thing in the movie. Why? Because there was a story there!

 

[Dragon]

But that's the thing, it's not peter being himself it's the symbiote altering pete's perception and making him get aggravated at things he normally wouldn't. Therefore an unarmed man being killed protecting him property would be enough to see similarities with his uncle's death and hence get him to loose it.

BUT- and the movie makes this CLEAR- Peter had to already be o enraged and obsessed BEFORE the symbiote could take him over. His rage called to the symbiote. Do you think the night of the symbiote's attack was the first time Peter slept since the creature attached itself to his bike? No. It was only after Peter was at the breaking point that it attacked. And- it NEVER distorted his perception. It only effected Peter's inhibitions.

you second point is flawed. Just because you are aware of someone's weakness doesn't mean it is applicable in winning a bout. Spidey took out sandman originally with water yet there was no water in the finale. Venom's weakness could have easily been known prior but the ability to produce the required noise would be hard to accomplish...

But if Peter went there knowing how to defeat Venom his strategy would've been different. As soon as he realized what the symbiote's weakness was he found a way to exploit it. It would've happened even sooner if Peter knew beforehand.

I don't even mind if it isn't 'loud' sound but if it was solely a unique frequency given off by the chiming of bells (or metal chiming) at a given amplitude. How often are spiderman's weaknesses exploited yet they have no bearing on either the outcome or the length of a bout.

knowing about something doesn't mean you can always prepare for it, movie spidey isn't exactly a prep-time god.

Peter didn't need to prep before the battle. I'm saying that knowing what the symbiote's weakness was, he'd have, rather than trying to slug it out with Venom, started ringing his bell, literally. Sandman he could've dodged while continuing to soften Venom up.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Sandman's arc worked for the forgiveness theme of the movie, but I do think he needed more screen time (as did Brock before becoming Venom). He wasn't pointless at all. Sandman provided a reason for Peter to begin wearing the suit a lot, and he needed to fit the forgiveness theme (Peter compares himself to Marko in that scene...remember he says "I have done terrible things too", so his forgiveness in that scene is not just him forgiving Marko, it is him forgiving himself also.)

I think he needed more character scenes, but he wasn't pointless in the least.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Pointless villian? Howcome? Because he wasn't trying to destroy New York? That doesn't make himpointless to me, he had a point in the overall theme and message of the film in his relation to Peter.

 

[greg@XSchool]

Once I heard his last name was Marko,I didn't realize that this is his adoptive alias. I was like WTF, because Juggernaut is Cain Marko. I guess marvel thinks Marko is more common of a last name or something else. I wasn't going to see SM3 until I knew venom was going to be in it.

 

[Grievous]

I just thought he was not in the movie much

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I repeat: Only if Harry killed MAY or MJ would Peter have been that enraged.

na.. harry could have hurt one of them, and he'd be equally as raged

 

[D-scythe]

Really? Okay. Considering it took the murder of a loved opne to push Peter to the required level of rage, tell me what Harry would have done to generate the same level of anger in Peter.

You're just making excuses. The writers could've easily found a billion other reasons to make Peter susceptible to the symbiote. And EACH of the billion reasons would be better than "Oh, let's make SANDMAN the REAL killer of Uncle Ben, to PISS Peter off."

But he was mentioned in THIS story. And "every previous" (I thought there was only one) story involved years of story development. So I don't think they'd work for this particular adaptation.

Years? Yeah right. Spider-man TAS didn't spend more than 1 or 2 episodes on the genesis of Venom - Ultimate SM didn't take longer than a single arc, and same with 616 - the actual birth of Venom doesn't take THAT long. Most of it was just Spidey dancing around in an alien suit that made him stronger. Wow, like THAT would be hard to set up

 

[Dragon]

na.. harry could have hurt one of them, and he'd be equally as raged

Sigh. The Goblin hospitalized May in Spidey 1. So..................Nope. But you keep pulling those rabbits out of the hat.

 

[Dragon]

You're just making excuses. The writers could've easily found a billion other reasons to make Peter susceptible to the symbiote. And EACH of the billion reasons would be better than "Oh, let's make SANDMAN the REAL killer of Uncle Ben, to PISS Peter off."

And yet... You can't seem to come up with a single ONE.

Years? Yeah right. Spider-man TAS didn't spend more than 1 or 2 episodes on the genesis of Venom -

There were 2 eps in dealing with Peter having the symbiote IIRC and then there was the actual Venom story arc. And that was a cartoon, with kiddie sensibilities.

Ultimate SM didn't take longer than a single arc, and same with 616 - the actual birth of Venom doesn't take THAT long. Most of it was just Spidey dancing around in an alien suit that made him stronger. Wow, like THAT would be hard to set up

I don't give a crap about the very inferior Ultimate line. In 616 it took over a year between ASM #252 and Web of Spider-Man #1. Then there was the whole Sin-Eater storyline to set up Eddie's "reason" for wanting revenge. Then the actual intro of Venom. So we're talking about a good 2 years of story telling. Which wasn't going to happen in a 2.5 hour movie. Especially when the end result was the incredibly simplistic villainy of Venom. He's not worth the time and effort.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Sigh. The Goblin hospitalized May in Spidey 1. So..................Nope. But you keep pulling those rabbits out of the hat.

o wait.. i forgot your the god of everything thats right.. your never wrong about something.. my bad

well guess what? peter was also just starting out as spider-man during that time. and was fighting his first villain ever! To say he'd act the same way with May or MJ injured (MJ who has never been injured in the movies and im talking hospitalized, not a bump on the head) when harry stoops to the level of actually hurting his loved ones that's going to inflict rage... ESPESCIALLY under the effects of the black suit. The symbiote doesn't need great rage for it to first latch on, just rage or anger at all. If Harry caused conflict before hand, as well as Peter losing his job to eddie brock (which should of happened anyway, because Jameson seemed oblivious of the fact that peter is dating the woman who ran out on his son's wedding) Those would have been things to put just enough anger into pete for the symbiote to latch on, and make his anger much worse and intense.

you have a very narrow mind to think the way things happened in the movie were the only way they could have ever worked.

 

[Raniburger]

I was also disappointed with Sandman in this film... Am I the only one who thinks that the whole 'giant monster' thing was a little overused? I would have preferred the spidey/sandy battles to be smaller & more intimate if you get what I mean. I didn't really care for that stupid giant blob at all. There should have been more shapeshifting from Sandy during fights, throwing Spidey's balance off etc. Think of a more frenetic fight sequence, like say, the one with Doc Ock on the side of the clock tower. Now swap in Sandman (in a different setting of course) and play out that style of fight - not just have Spidey shooting web balls (also overused, anyone?) all the time... I really liked when Spidey punched through Sandman, and when he changed his fists into weapons etc. Would have been more visually stunning than what we did get in my opinion.

Oh, and I also REALLY dislike the fact that they tried to tie his storyline to the death of Uncle Ben!!!

Oh yeah... One last rant... Why did he just give himself up at the end? He cops a pumpkin bomb and then all of a sudden decides that he just can't be bothered anymore? WTF???

Agree there was too much going on. Raimi should have picked one villain or the other and gone with it. Venom wasn't given enough time to develop properly, so even though I'm a big Venom fan, I wouldn't have been disappointed if they had left him out until SM4. I sort of liked the idea tossed around ages ago that we would only catch one glimpse of him right at the end... That would have been cool.

Back on topic - I would have liked to have seen Sandman given more attention in this film. You do get the feeling that he was the one that got short-changed as a result of having too much going on in the film...

 

[Crowforge]

There probably won't be a SM4.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

There probably won't be a SM4.

ya... there just going to stop the biggest theater record breaking franchise in history... one thats already (in 3 days) made more money then it cost to make... when 4 is already greenlit and there at least going to be filming 3 more.... and hoping to turn into the new bond-esque franchise, ya... spidey 4 isn't going to happen

 

[Spade]

There will be an SM4. The real questions are whether Raimi will be back in the saddle, and if Sony can make a good sequel following up on the poor reception of this film as well as the dead ends SM3 created.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

There will be an SM4. The real questions are whether Raimi will be back in the saddle, and if Sony can make a good sequel following up on the poor reception of this film as well as the dead ends SM3 created.

Sam will come back, personally i think they've wrapped nothing up besides the goblin saga... Peter and MJ are yet to be engaged... and yet to be married. I think raimi and the cast will be back to do just that. But after that.. i'd count and bet on a recast.. tobey will be too old by spidey 6