Scientology Kills

[The Lizard]

I don't understand this gripe.
All of the religions profit from their believers.

The Vatican, like, rules the world.
In Jesus's day, the influential "church" leaders lived like homeless guys, depending upon charity.

Now they all wear Armani suits and have huge houses and several expensive cars.

They're all businesses and they all make profit.

I'm not saying that's right either, but the "profit-sharing" plan directly tied to CoS recruitment is a blatant business practice. That's part of the problem that the CoS creates for itself. It tries to sell its beliefs as having secular applications so that local governments and public schools will invest in Scientology-sponsored programs, but then it also plays the religion card to avoid taxation and pesky things like medical or therapeutic licensing to practice its pseudoscience.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not publish financial data regarding its privately owned businesses. However, Church officials have indicated that profits from business operations are used to provide living allowances for the General Authorities of the Church."
That's, uh..."business type profit".
When...the businesses they own, and maintain, through tithing funds, make a profit, and it's given, to the church leaders, to spend...

That's not tithing. The LDS-owned business operations like KSL-TV and such are all taxable. If there is any money paid to Church general authorities for a living stipend, it comes from those taxable funds, not the tithing of church members. Plus, the living stipend is optional, and from what I've been told by higher-up LDS muckity-mucks, hardly any Mormon general authorities bother to take the stipend. Like I said before, they're already a bunch of wealthy old white businessmen with fat retirement plans.

 

[Jerry!]

does it not cause anyone even a little discomfort that a 40 year old religion has gained this much influence so fast?
all the other religions took hundreds of years to accumulate the clout held by Scientology today nevermind the money.

What influence? I've been asking this for the last few pages. I've seen the videos of what happens to people who get involved with Scientology. That isn't going to scare most people, because most people are smart enough not to join a cult. What threat does this pose to me, Joe American? What is it about them that could scare me without me having to get directly involved with them? What harm can they do to me without my ever being involved with them?

I don't see it. I've never heard of Scientology before Tom Cruise going bat ****. I don't see the threat they impose on this country. I see and understand the threat they are to the people they dupe into believing their bull****, and that's terrible. But really it's not enough to cause a panic about them. They are too "out there" to really cause any big panic or problems.

 

[moraldeficiency]

The Vatican, like, rules the world.

Exactely, look how many catholic leaders are in power now, it's staggering. If only we could for once get a protestant in office just for a change and not have him or her shot.

Gotta say this statement is up there with "jews control all media and money" as far as a senseless statement with no facts to back it up other than lingering prejudice.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'm not saying that's right either, but the "profit-sharing" plan directly tied to CoS recruitment is a blatant business practice. That's part of the problem that the CoS creates for itself. It tries to sell its beliefs as having secular applications so that local governments and public schools will invest in Scientology-sponsored programs, but then it also plays the religion card to avoid taxation and pesky things like medical or therapeutic licensing to practice its pseudoscience.



That's not tithing. The LDS-owned business operations like KSL-TV and such are all taxable. If there is any money paid to Church general authorities for a living stipend, it comes from those taxable funds, not the tithing of church members. Plus, the living stipend is optional, and from what I've been told by higher-up LDS muckity-mucks, hardly any Mormon general authorities bother to take the stipend. Like I said before, they're already a bunch of wealthy old white businessmen with fat retirement plans.

What I'm saying, is that the LDS church, owns a ton of land, and businesses and stock...and how did they buy all of that?
Did God make a mountain of gold appear in their back yard?
No, it was with money.
Where did the money come from?

It's insane to act like the fact that Scientology wants to recruit new members because new members mean more money, sets them apart for extra scrutiny.

I do not think the people who are so pissed about Scientology would be putting forth this much effort and expending so much passion against the Christian televangelists of the 80's.

 

[cerealkiller182]

What influence? I've been asking this for the last few pages. I've seen the videos of what happens to people who get involved with Scientology. That isn't going to scare most people, because most people are smart enough not to join a cult. What threat does this pose to me, Joe American? What is it about them that could scare me without me having to get directly involved with them? What harm can they do to me without my ever being involved with them?

Did you think the same way toward the Branch Davidians and Heaen's Gate. The big deal is that even though your not involved, some people have been involved, people are members right now, and probably will be later. What about those people? You dont care about criminals unless your a victim?

I don't see it. I've never heard of Scientology before Tom Cruise going bat ****. I don't see the threat they impose on this country. I see and understand the threat they are to the people they dupe into believing their bull****, and that's terrible. But really it's not enough to cause a panic about them. They are too "out there" to really cause any big panic or problems.

The Tom Cruise thing again? Who cares how people find out about it, they are still doing bad things? They may not pose a threat to this country as a whole, but they have victimized citizens of this country which should be enough to get involved.

Does it only matter when its genocide?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Exactely, look how many catholic leaders are in power now, it's staggering. If only we could for once get a protestant in office just for a change and not have him or her shot.

Gotta say this statement is up there with "jews control all media and money" as far as a senseless statement with no facts to back it up other than lingering prejudice.

That is so ******ed to take an obvious bit of hyperbole and act like I'm trying to present it as empirical fact.
Please dude.


Here, I guess you'll enjoy this more for it's literalism.

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians. Unlike ordinary stockholders, the Vatican pays no taxes on this income, which led the leftist Rome weekly L'Espresso last week to call it "the biggest tax evader in Italy."

Ah, thank God, that's so much better than colorful speech.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

What influence? I've been asking this for the last few pages. I've seen the videos of what happens to people who get involved with Scientology. That isn't going to scare most people, because most people are smart enough not to join a cult. What threat does this pose to me, Joe American? What is it about them that could scare me without me having to get directly involved with them? What harm can they do to me without my ever being involved with them?

I don't see it. I've never heard of Scientology before Tom Cruise going bat ****. I don't see the threat they impose on this country. I see and understand the threat they are to the people they dupe into believing their bull****, and that's terrible. But really it's not enough to cause a panic about them. They are too "out there" to really cause any big panic or problems.

well I had heard of Scientology before tom cruise.
I had heard of dianetics wayyyyyyyy before that.
these are people notoriously litigious, downright censoring opposing views in some instances.
I have met both sicentologists both in and out of the cult and what they tell me is rather upsetting.
however, the fact that educated people, prosperous people join this cult gains them influence does it not?
I mean, if a bunch of movie stars and rich people converted to Islam there would be far greater concerns I guess.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Did you think the same way toward the Branch Davidians and Heaen's Gate.

You have to respect the beliefs of the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate.
We have to respect the beliefs of others, even if we may personally disagree with them.

 

[cerealkiller182]

You have to respect the beliefs of the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate.
We have to respect the beliefs of others, even if we may personally disagree with them.

Not when they are so willing to do harm to themselves and others

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Not when they are so willing to do harm to themselves and others

All religions are willing to do harm to themselves or others.

 

[cerealkiller182]

All religions are willing to do harm to themselves and others.

Thats why I'd get rid of every single one of them

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Sounds pretty fascist.
Brain Police to the rescue.

EDIT: Please note that I changed "harm themselves and others" to the more accurate "harm themselves OR others"....since we're all walking on egg shells here.

 

[Obi-Ron]

I've never heard of Scientology before Tom Cruise going bat ****.

Whether your opinions are right or wrong about Scientology, if you really never heard about it before that you really need to keep yourself better informed about the world around you. You never know when it will come in handy.

 

[The Lizard]

What I'm saying, is that the LDS church, owns a ton of land, and businesses and stock...and how did they buy all of that?
Did God make a mountain of gold appear in their back yard?
No, it was with money.
Where did the money come from?

Well, part of that reason is why I previously threw in this disclaimer:

They have their fingers in a lot of business and corporate interests, but tithing and charitable donations (which is what we're discussing here), don't make any modern Mormon church leaders rich.

Now, I could go into how Joseph Smith's "United Order" was closer to communism than capitalism and point out that Smith himself wasn't a rich man at his death, but the fact remains that the early LDS church did get wealthy and come out of debt in the early 1900's due to the tithes and land donations from its members. However, modern LDS business ownership and property purchases have nothing to do with tithing and are purchased with taxable profits from other non-religious business ventures. That's the way it's done these days, and that's how the CoS should be judged.

It's insane to act like the fact that Scientology wants to recruit new members because new members mean more money, sets them apart for extra scrutiny.

Not for the sentiment, no. But for the ways and means that recruitment is practiced? Yes.

I do not think the people who are so pissed about Scientology would be putting forth this much effort and expending so much passion against the Christian televangelists of the 80's.

I hated those bastards! They did a pretty good job of killing themselves off however. I look forward to a world without televangelists of any sort.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Sounds pretty fascist.
Brain Police to the rescue.

Religions outlived its purpose. Turns people against each other more than anything else.

I exaggerated a bit, but the point is is that being a religion does not give you permission to do what you want

 

[cerealkiller182]

EDIT: Please note that I changed "harm themselves and others" to the more accurate "harm themselves OR others"....since we're all walking on egg shells here.

Thats what I meant as well. No reason for egg shells

 

[moraldeficiency]

That is so ******ed to take an obvious bit of hyperbole and act like I'm trying to present it as empirical fact.
Please dude.

Here, I guess you'll enjoy this more for it's literalism.

Ah, thank God, that's so much better than colorful speech.

I'm not sure it was, you like to generalize religious points quite a bit. But benefit of the doubt, I apologize.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove other than the fact that bill gates has approxiamately 4 times the highest possible holdings of the entire catholic church. (approx. 60 billion) Which doesn't make them seem that vast at all.

Though I believe the point that was attempted at was that the CoS has an active pyramid scheme for profits in recruitment which is a first for any religion ever (unless you consider some cults religions). Which does seem pretty messed up. Especially when you consider (another first for CoS unless you're counting cults) that it costs money to advance in the church, not study or time put in, that only comes after the money. That's quite a bit different from tithing unless you're just gonna generalize again with "they all make a profit so there's no difference".

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Not for the sentiment, no. But for the ways and means that recruitment is practiced? Yes.

I have seen mainstream, Born Again Christian preachers telling literally millions of people at a time, that they should give as much tithing as they can because God promises them that any tithing will be multiplied 10 fold, so tithing is the safest investment of all, because it's guaranteed by God himself.

Then of course, the way they recruit is by telling you that you are going to be tortured forever if you don't join up.

Do you prefer these methods?

I hated those bastards! They did a pretty good job of killing themselves off however.

No, they really didn't. They're still going strong, they're just less overt about showing off their wealth.
Just because there aren't any big name take-downs like with Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert, it doesn't detract from the millions and millions of dollars that Christians are getting through deception.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Thats what I meant as well. No reason for egg shells

The Hype = Egg Shells

 

[cerealkiller182]

The Hype = Egg Shells

Only way to get rid of the egg shells is too stomp all over them until theres no shells left

 

[The Lizard]

I have seen mainstream, Born Again Christian preachers telling literally millions of people at a time, that they should give as much tithing as they can because God promises them that any tithing will be multiplied 10 fold, so tithing is the safest investment of all, because it's guaranteed by God himself.

Then of course, the way they recruit is by telling you that you are going to be tortured forever if you don't join up.

Do you prefer these methods?

What I "prefer" is not the issue...that's merely ad hominem silliness.

The circumstances you describe above are all "faith based" reward systems put upon God, not a concrete business policy. A slippery way to dangle carrots in front of believer's faces definitely, but again, nothing based on actual profit-sharing business policies. You must be able to see the difference.

No, they really didn't. They're still going strong, they're just less overt about showing off their wealth.

Oh yeah, they're still there, but a diminished presence will hopefully continue as the skeptical baby-boomers enter old age (since elderly shut-ins traditionally account for the lion's share of televangelist funds). We'll see.

...it doesn't detract from the millions and millions of dollars that Christians are getting through deception.

Here's where I think we finally get into what's causing our divergent points of view (the dishonest financial dealings of televangelists aside). What I'm interpreting from you is the statement that all religions are "deceptions" because they ask for donations from people and put forth belief systems that are so blatantly false that only idiots would believe it, right? Therefore, how is Scientology any different from any of those other crazy deceitful religions?

However, I am viewing the "deceptions" of Scientology in a way that is based on their practices, not their beliefs. The particulars of Scientology faith are held back and only discussed in overblown pie-in-the-sky metaphors until the money has changed hands and the courses are taken. Scientologists tell new recruits that they can still practice their own religious faiths and be Scientologists at the same time, because by the time the recruits find out that's not true, they've already sunk huge amounts of money into CoS courses and will hopefully be indoctrinated enough by that point that they won't cry foul. Even if they do cry foul and blow (leave the CoS), the money has already been collected, so onto the next sucker...

Despite the checkered history of other mainstream religions, these CoS policies just don't jibe with how religious organizations are supposed to operate and maintain their tax-exempt justification for being something other than a for-profit new age self help business.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

wouldn't the " difference" small as it is, is that the church of Scientology only let's it's members advance according to the amount of money they spend in courses and auditing?
while the other churches coerce donations a man can be just and righteous according to his or her religion without spending a dime ( I know, I know, charity and stuff I'm generalizing) yet in Scientology it is required for him/her to SPEND money in order to become " clear"

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

wouldn't the " difference" small as it is, is that the church of Scientology only let's it's members advance according to the amount of money they spend in courses and auditing?

No. A Mormon can not become a priest or get married in the temple or go to the Celestial Kingdom unless he pays 10% of his earnings to the church (because God figured out how to make monkeys, horse shoe crabs, dragon flys and the planet Jupiter appear out of nothing, but the knack for making money appear has evaded him)

There is no way you can advance in Mormonism without paying.

Also, so the **** what?
No one has a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to advance in Scientology.
If you want to join the Country Club, and the rules are that you have to pay your yearly dues...if you don't pay your dues, you can't go to the club anymore.

Why aren't you people respecting the beliefs of these persecuted people?

 

[jaguarr]

EDIT: Please note that I changed "harm themselves and others" to the more accurate "harm themselves OR others"....since we're all walking on egg shells here.

*takes finger off the "Report Post" button* Oh, you're walking a fine line, Wilhelm-Scream. I am watching you.

jag

 

[Mr Sparkle]

No. A Mormon can not become a priest or get married in the temple or go to the Celestial Kingdom unless he pays 10% of his earnings to the church (because God figured out how to make monkeys, horse shoe crabs, dragon flys and the planet Jupiter appear out of nothing, but the knack for making money appear has evaded him)

There is no way you can advance in Mormonism without paying.

Also, so the **** what?
No one has a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to advance in Scientology.
If you want to join the Country Club, and the rules are that you have to pay your yearly dues...if you don't pay your dues, you can't go to the club anymore.

Why aren't you people respecting the beliefs of these persecuted people?

ok, so I think I have already spoken about my Mormonism ******ation.
I know very little about it and I didn't know about that.
I merely assumed that was the difference and pointed that out as it pertained to the Lizard's observation on tax exemption.
that was pretty much it.
so then, rebuke the tax exempt status of all religions that have similar practices.
problem solved?
also, any all religions promising to heal illness through their tv broadcast must have a disclaimer underneath about their statements not veing evaluated by a regulatory commission.