ok, so I think I have already spoken about my Mormonism ******ation.
I know very little about it and I didn't know about that.
I merely assumed that was the difference and pointed that out as it pertained to the Lizard's observation on tax exemption.
Well again, please note that the 10% tithing expected to maintain good status in the LDS church is a set, unchanging, egalitarian amount that is made clear up front to all potential converts. I'm not saying that I approve of any church's policies that rigorously enforce full tithing, but it isn't a bait-and-switch shell game either.
also, any all religions promising to heal illness through their tv broadcast must have a disclaimer underneath about their statements not veing evaluated by a regulatory commission.
Ah, but the Scientology e-meter is yet another example of the CoS trying to have its religious cake while pushing its secular cake too. The e-meter is described to recruits in supposedly scientific terms that lay out how it measures "reactive energy" and "blown mass", while also having a disclaimer that it's a "religious artifact" and thus exempt from such inconveniences as regulatory testing and approval.
Also, so the **** what?
No one has a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to advance in Scientology.
If you want to join the Country Club, and the rules are that you have to pay your yearly dues...if you don't pay your dues, you can't go to the club anymore.
Why aren't you people respecting the beliefs of these persecuted people?
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Any children born to the CoS do not have a choice. There's no religious ceremony to choose their faith, they simply are, and when your parents and everyone you've ever met in your entire life say one thing you pretty much believe it gun or not. In fact you cannot even ask about another religion without being "reeducated" which is a marvelous coupling of starvation and sensory depravation.
So, at least for them, its not the same as the Mormons or other religions.
Now I'm sure you'll find some examples of other religions doing this, which is great, but it's not standard practice or part of dogma.
I'm curious if you've ever met anyone in the CoS. I don't mean met as in passed on the street, I mean met as in you spoke to them. Cause I just can't see you saying all this if you had. Though maybe you can if you honestly see every religion as the same.
ok, so I think I have already spoken about my Mormonism ******ation.
I know very little about it and I didn't know about that.
I merely assumed that was the difference and pointed that out as it pertained to the Lizard's observation on tax exemption.
that was pretty much it.
so then, rebuke the tax exempt status of all religions that have similar practices.
problem solved?
also, any all religions promising to heal illness through their tv broadcast must have a disclaimer underneath about their statements not veing evaluated by a regulatory commission.
Lizard will tell you that there's a difference because they won't kick you out of Mormonism for non-payment.
I don't believe that.
One thing that can't be denied is that you can not progress to the highest levels of the church without paying, and, non-payment will adversely effect your after-life and your social standing in this life.
Next, yes, Lizard is way underplaying the CON aspect of the Christian con-men.
I have nothing but pity and disgust for Scientologists and Scientology, but it is a GNAT compared to the evil that's perpetrated by the HIPPO that is "the major world religions"...and it's blowing my mind that it's acceptable to attack Scientology for it's unspoken, SUPPOSED motivations, and suspect practices...when Christianity, Judaism and Islam are just as transparent and preposterous and have destroyed more lives than Scientology EVER will.
<<EDIT: I just realized what it reminds me of. It reminds me of how marijuana is illegal but cigarettes and alcohol aren't. It's that kind of ******ation.>>
People are just more apt to look the other way because they've been around longer, so the shock of their insanity has worn off...for most.
This is why people proudly call themselves "Christians", but don't agree with 80% of the Bible.
Itr's A-Okay to make fun of Xenu here...but not to make fun of the long-haired horse scorpions and the unicorns of the Bible.
It's wrong.
Double Standard.
It's A-Okay to make fun of Xenu here...but not to make fun of the long-haired horse scorpions and the unicorns of the Bible.
It's wrong.
Double Standard.
Well again, please note that the 10% tithing expected to maintain good status in the LDS church is a set, unchanging, egalitarian amount that is made clear up front to all potential converts. I'm not saying that I approve of any church's policies that rigorously enforce full tithing, but it isn't a bait-and-switch shell game either.
Well again, please note that the 10% tithing expected to maintain good status in the LDS church is a set, unchanging, egalitarian amount that is made clear up front to all potential converts. I'm not saying that I approve of any church's policies that rigorously enforce full tithing, but it isn't a bait-and-switch shell game either.
What we have here is a personal bias, where Mormons can do no wrong and Scientologists are insidious if they cross the street.
Because you're talking about this "not being up front"....
Uh, what about the temple ceremonies.
2 nice boys come to your door, tell you that they have the one true path to happiness, you're so lonely, weak-minded or desperate that you believe their preposterous stories....but they don't tell you that you have to wear magical underwear, or that a dude is going to anoint your breasts to make sure they produce a lot of milk for your many offspring...or that if you're a woman, "Heaven" will be: pumping out billions of babies in a perpetual state of pregnancy.....and they don't tell you about Blacks are Black because they were sinful...or that Adolf Hitler can be baptized into the Mormon church, against his will, after his death, etc.
They also don't tell you that if you ever leave their church, you will be hounded and harassed for decades...DECADES.
They sent people to my house, and mailed letters, and called my Dad, pestering him to come back, trying to "witness" to him, over 20 YEARS after he left.
Lizard will tell you that there's a difference because they won't kick you out of Mormonism for non-payment.
I don't believe that.
One thing that can't be denied is that you can not progress to the highest levels of the church without paying, and, non-payment will adversely effect your after-life and your social standing in this life.
Next, yes, Lizard is way underplaying the CON aspect of the Christian con-men.
I have nothing but pity and disgust for Scientologists and Scientology, but it is a GNAT compared to the evil that's perpetrated by the HIPPO that is "the major world religions"...and it's blowing my mind that it's acceptable to attack Scientology for it's unspoken, SUPPOSED motivations, and suspect practices...when Christianity, Judaism and Islam are just as transparent and preposterous and have destroyed more lives than Scientology EVER will.
People are just more apt to look the other way because they've been around longer, so the shock of their insanity has worn off...for most.
This is why people proudly call themselves "Christians", but don't agree with 80% of the Bible.
Itr's A-Okay to make fun of Xenu here...but not to make fun of the long-haired horse scorpions and the unicorns of the Bible.
It's wrong.
Double Standard.
Christians make fun of their religion all the time. Now some might get alarmed by some of the stuff but no one says something is off limits. And the church doesn't mindlessly sue for anything that might hurt it's PR image or threaten to bomb anyone say drawing a picture of christ or whatever. A person might sue or threaten violence but that's different from an entire religion.
I mean I watch south park all the time and their funniest episodes are the ones dealing with religion. I can laugh at the christian ones just as much as the other episodes. I think it's the reverse of what you're saying that's true. It's consider completely fair game to nail any christian religion with whatever you want, but people seem to really cry foul when the same treatment is given to other religions.
You seem to assume the only christians the "count" as christians are those that believe in the bible 100%, and the only leaders that count those that lie and abuse their power. This would be like saying because Bush won the election twice all US citizens feel exactely like him on all views. Sometimes (actually more often than not) religions like politics get sidetracked by people who are self-serving in the best of times and completely hateful for the rest.
Now you might argue what's the difference then? It's the rules that make up the religion or country that show what type of organization it is (or aspires to be). For the US, as @hitty as it can be at times, you look at documents like the constitution and bill of rights and you can say for the most part people had a good idea when they made the country. For christians I believe the golden rule is the law of the land, and really you can't argue with that as a pretty good principal to govern your life by whether you believe it or not. Scientologists however have a very specific set of rules and practices which form it's basis with physical reprucussions and ways to deal with adverse PR and people outside the church clearly outlined. While monsters can take any law or rule and contort their meaning into something hateful (like the inquesition or the current suicide bombers) the basis was still good. Like the US, we can do some horrible things in the name of "freedom" because people pervert the purpose of law to their cause, but that doesn't make the system evil just misguided. However, if those evils are completely in line with the system and the standard and consistant practice then you have to call the system itself to question.
Lizard will tell you that there's a difference because they won't kick you out of Mormonism for non-payment.
I don't believe that.
One thing that can't be denied is that you can not progress to the highest levels of the church without paying, and, non-payment will adversely effect your after-life and your social standing in this life.
Next, yes, Lizard is way underplaying the CON aspect of the Christian con-men.
Again, you seen incapable of grasping the difference between what is promised to people in unquantifiable faith-based terms (whether it be a premeditated con or not), and actions that are based on real world business policies, manipulation of statistics and pseudoscientific medical quackery packaged as having real world (not faith-based) validation. Not to mention human rights and child labor violations.
I have nothing but pity and disgust for Scientologists and Scientology, but it is a GNAT compared to the evil that's perpetrated by the HIPPO that is "the major world religions"...and it's blowing my mind that it's acceptable to attack Scientology for it's unspoken, SUPPOSED motivations, and suspect practices...when Christianity, Judaism and Islam are just as transparent and preposterous and have destroyed more lives than Scientology EVER will.
Do you have any statistics on all the people whose lives were actually improved and saved from destruction by the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam? Just curious about how all those well-documented numbers will stack up next to each other.
Again -- Scientology beliefs can exist in whatever form people see fit to have them, and if their personal lives are enriched and improved by it, fine.
BUT -- the abuses and public deceptions that result from current Church of Scientology policies should not be tolerated or ignored any more than the outrageous actions by the Catholic parishes that hid the crimes of the pedophile priests. Those were relatively isolated incidents that happened in small percentages...should they have been ignored so that "larger problems" could be focused on instead?
EDIT: I just realized what it reminds me of. It reminds me of how marijuana is illegal but cigarettes and alcohol aren't.
How about if cigs didn't have any warnings and instead had labels claiming it was healthy for you? That's more what this situation is like.
People are just more apt to look the other way because they've been around longer, so the shock of their insanity has worn off...for most.
This is why people proudly call themselves "Christians", but don't agree with 80% of the Bible.
Itr's A-Okay to make fun of Xenu here...but not to make fun of the long-haired horse scorpions and the unicorns of the Bible.
It's wrong.
Double Standard.
Since when has making fun of wacky Bible crap ceased? I'm aware of no such moratorium. Although I'll admit I was expecting this thread to be locked when the other Scientology thread was locked, so I'm still not really understanding that, but whatever.
Ha - no personal biases ever evident in your anti-Mormon rantings, are there?
I've repeatedly pointed out things that I find wacky or disturbing in the LDS church, I just don't do it in that inimitable "Wilhelm style" that gets threads closed and people pissed off.
Because you're talking about this "not being up front"....
Uh, what about the temple ceremonies.
2 nice boys come to your door, tell you that they have the one true path to happiness, you're so lonely, weak-minded or desperate that you believe their preposterous stories....but they don't tell you that you have to wear magical underwear, or that a dude is going to anoint your breasts to make sure they produce a lot of milk for your many offspring...or that if you're a woman, "Heaven" will be: pumping out billions of babies in a perpetual state of pregnancy.....and they don't tell you about Blacks are Black because they were sinful...or that Adolf Hitler can be baptized into the Mormon church, against his will, after his death, etc.
They also don't tell you that if you ever leave their church, you will be hounded and harassed for decades...DECADES.
They sent people to my house, and mailed letters, and called my Dad, pestering him to come back, trying to "witness" to him, over 20 YEARS after he left.
Again, we were talking about hidden FINANCIAL costs. That was the original subject which related to TAX EXEPMTION -- remember that subject?
Of course Mormon missionaries don't volunteer info about the weird temple ceremonies or Joseph Smith's teenage brides or the priesthood ban. It's bad PR - duh. Is that deceitful? Sure! If you find out about it, can you ask a Mormon directly and get an answer? Yes - albeit a "faith based" answer, but they won't deny it. It's all spiritual faith-based crap -- unlike the policies put forth by the CoS.
And trust me... any "hounding" or annoyance your dad experienced from the LDS church pales in comparison with what the CoS does when it's members go "rogue". Why didn't your dad just request his name officially taken off Mormon church records?
Wow, this is difficult because there is so much misguided bull**** here for only one Me to deal with, and unlike Christianity threads, I don't care enough to put so much work into responses...but, we all know that if the attacked doesn't respond, the attacker assumes it's because the attacker "hit too close to home", or the attacked "has nothing"...which I assure you is not the case.
Hmm.....well, for one, Lizard...you are wrong about the "irrelevance" of the Mormon oddities that aren't shared until you're invested in it all...because that's exactly the issue you brought up...not of finances, or science, but of beliefs.
You complained that when you join, you're told that you can live by Scientology and still continue to practice your other religion.
The particulars of Scientology faith are held back and only discussed in overblown pie-in-the-sky metaphors until the money has changed hands and the courses are taken. Scientologists tell new recruits that they can still practice their own religious faiths and be Scientologists at the same time, because by the time the recruits find out that's not true, they've already sunk huge amounts of money into CoS courses and will hopefully be indoctrinated enough by that point that they won't cry foul. Even if they do cry foul and blow (leave the CoS), the money has already been collected, so onto the next sucker...
You're suggesting that they misrepresent themselves, and then, once they have your money, it's a bait-and-switch, where they let all their shameful freak flag beliefs fly.
...just like in Mormonism. Such as, how they play up that they are "Christians" on TV, and on home visits...and later you find out that their Jesus is actually Lucifer's brother, not his creator....and that we can all become Gods.
And, again, lol, I just watched a ****ing apostle laughing about how recruitment is down and it's a really tough sell because it's required that you pay 10% of your income...so, if your perception of it's non-necessity/necessity doesn't line up with an Apostle's, I'm....gonna have to go with the Apostle, sorry.
And,
The Lizard said:
Why didn't your dad just request his name officially taken off Mormon church records?
HE DID! That's what I said...for over 20 years. They ignored all of his letters and phone calls and some family member was encouraging it probably, but that's what everyone says when it's mentioned, "Why didn't he just have his name taken off."
HAHAHAHahaha, THAT WAS THE PROBLEM! They'd say, "Okay, and then a few months later, people would be there, wanting to talk about getting him to come back to the fold.
That's WHY I brought it up.
The Church of Scientology has 500,000 members worldwide, perhaps a little more. Of those 500,000 members, how many of them are going around "forcing" people to commit suicide? How many of them are "lying" about their faith? How many of them are "coercing" others to give up all their finances to join the church?
While you're raising a decent point of view, and I respect you for having a well thought out opinion, there are things to take into account with your appraisal that I believe are being overlooked:
The very few in this case are in fact the leaders who set the policy, and the people who enforce it. Keep in mind that Scientology is a totally centralized organization, devoid of particular sects or splinter groups (aside from Freezone). This is an important distinction when set against things like Islam or Christianity which have many sect and splinter groups,
Yet the Church of Scientology deserves to be criticized, mocked and brought to shambles because of their actions? Church members should have to pay taxes due to the actions of a few, and not the majority?
You act as if the leaders are pulling a few dirty tricks when no one is looking at, and that Scientologists are practically all simply upstanding people who might as well be attending church on Sunday. While there's no doubt that the majority in fact ignorant of the more sinister crimes of Scientology (Being unable to talk about your experiences within the church even with other members really helps the leaders control and shape the message to their followers), the rate of negative members versus positive is no doubt much higher than you'd think.
Considering the organization uses Mind control and behavioral conditioning, relentlessly at that. The process is called a TR (though it is greater than just a simple exercise, or a singular TR, Language is another method that is used), and increases with time. Not to mention the wealth of derogatory policies for non Scientologists and the justifications for everything from breaking the law to murder can be found within Scientology texts. Now sure you can pull out quotes here and there from Religions about treating certain peoples, however the differences between what the more extreme aspects of a religion do, and the focused approach of Scientology across the board are what makes the difference.
By that contrast, there are more terrorist-insurgents in the Middle East who have declared allegiance to the Q'uran, and yet you don't want to them to be denied tax exempt status. And those guys actually go around bombing innocent people on buses and crowded marketplaces. Those terrorists, by the way, count for less than 1% of Muslims, too
The 1 percent you speak of are radicals and extremists following wahabism (let's not get into a conversation on if wahabism is real), who draw many recruits from poor areas, generally. The 1 percent you speak of in Scientology are those in control of the boat, setting and enforcing the policies that are in place for the entire organization, that are than carried out, not fringe radicals.
Its total vertical integration from the top down. Not to mention:
What belief or Faith? You don't even get to 'believe' in anything until you've achieved OT III and paid them over 100 thousand dollars. This doesn't even cover the majority of Scientologists who are under STAFF, stuck in RPF, or serving in Seaorg under controlled and monitored conditions like this. The majority of 'public' Scientologists may not actively engage in predicate crimes, but they are instructed that such actions are in fact ok, and if you are an agent of Scientology (OSa or otherwise) you are expected to carry out such crimes for the leadership.
This is not a matter of moral justification on the means of saving or preserving a faith, though that's what they are wrapped up as, these are orders straight from their own leadership. That is not to say that the average Scientologist does this... or indeed, not all Scientologists are thriving success stories in the eyes of the church, but the point is clear. They are conditioned and encouraged to believe that such actions are ok.
Now, for the people under OTIII, they very likely have little idea as to the trespasses of the church, (which does an amazing job of controlling the message to its members) and their own level of behavioral conditioning is in all likelihood relatively low (although if you were, say, a drug addict, who Narcanon took in, you're going to be pretty supporting of your new 'family'). For people in Staff? They are fed nothing but the message Scientology wants to shape. For people above OTIII? Most of them used one way or another, and the behavioral conditioning is made more intense the further up the bridge you progress.
If you think this is crazy talk, the entire basis of how Scientology is run has parallels to any totalitarian governmental system you might want to look at. "The best way to control people is to lie to them, because if you tell them the truth, you allow them free thought, and thy become harder to control".
Though actually, if you'll entertain a tangent for a moment:
Through agencies like Narconon (Scientology anti drug/rehab front group), Scientology does actively try to recruit and subsequently take advantage of and indoctrinate the vulnerable of society. Not only are their 'rehab' practices extremely dangerous (as in cold Turkey for everything from a simple drug addiction, to Seizure medication and anti depressants) but Narcanon doesn't actually publicly tie itself to Scientology up front. Though it does perform TRs and constantly pressure 'patients' to join Scientology once they are in the program, as a part of their 'Rehabilitation'.
Now the difference between radical Muslims or the Lords Resistance Army, is that the people you see in Scientology who commit such things as to be seen as a sort of American culture equivalent? Their objectionable practices, deception, and brainwashing (based off of Soviet Russian techniques) are institutionalized by their leaders from the highest level to each individual org, not simply a radical offshoot. There lies the heart of the distinction.
So... if you want to deny COS tax exempt status, shouldn't you try to deny the Muslims tax exempt status, considering they're actually participating in direct physical and psychological warfare with the Western world?
Mormons would be about the only ones that might bare some consideration with the Tithing practice, but Scientology is a business through and through. In every manner of its structure it is designed to get money from you to a degree that dwarfs any religions, even the Mormons. The purpose of the Tax Exempt status is to give non profit organizations a better ability to operate, with Church members being allowed to directly profit off of CoS activities, and to the extent that they are indeed a business, it's not proper that they are given tax breaks simply because they wrap themselves in the guise of a faith.
Even if you disagree with that, why is Scientology deserving of rights and benefits under their private Tax Exemption status that in greater than that of a true Religion?
In a lot of cases they will 'recommend' (see: Force) you to take courses that you have to pay for, and failure to do so would mean expulsion or being sent off to RPF. If you question them (them being your superior) in any way, if you fail to comply to 'policy', if the head of the group feels like it, he/she can send you to ETHICS, something you have to pay as well for I might add.
The tax exemption status was revoked by the IRS for entirely valid reasons (which were not just the trespasses themselves, but the extend of those trespasses) Scientology was only granted Tax Exempt status again due to them suing the IRS into submission (something to the tune of 7000 lawsuits over a few days), in fact you can pretty much also thank Scientology for the tightening of laws against using lawsuits as an attack tactic rather than the settlement of issues. Even if a person doesn't support the revoking of their tax exempt status, Opposing the fact that Scientology gets perks above and beyond any Religion in their TE agreement with the IRS, should be raising eyebrows.
That's a pretty big double standard there, I'd say.
This right here does a good job of underscoring the difference between the way you and I level criticism at our respective targets. Go back and look throughout this thread, or any of the other threads where I've posted about Scientology. Have I ever referred to the general Scientologists themselves as stupid, crazy, uneducated, misguided or full of BS? No, because I'm criticizing practices, not people.
If might take a brief aside -- I assure you, Wilhelm, that despite all the eye-rolling and mutual accusations of bias here, it's nothing personal of course. That much should be obvious from my language. Your style is MUCH more aggressive and yes, often ad hominem, as I've already pointed out, but I would hope your attitude towards me is the same. I know you relish religious headbutting, but I really don't do it very often, so again -- nothing personal. Since we are potentially getting into personal family stuff here, I just wanted to put that out there.
Now, back to the antler-crashing...
Hmm.....well, for one, Lizard...you are wrong about the "irrelevance" of the Mormon oddities that aren't shared until you're invested in it all...because that's exactly the issue you brought up...not of finances, or science, but of beliefs.
You complained that when you join, you're told that you can live by Scientology and still continue to practice your other religion.
You're suggesting that they misrepresent themselves, and then, once they have your money, it's a bait-and-switch, where they let all their shameful freak flag beliefs fly.
...just like in Mormonism. Such as, how they play up that they are "Christians" on TV, and on home visits...and later you find out that their Jesus is actually Lucifer's brother, not his creator....and that we can all become Gods.
That's true, I did mention the Scientology claim about practicing other faiths simultaneously as an example of their deceitfulness. But I still maintain that there's a difference between that and what you're describing in "whitewashed" Mormon missionary practices. If a Mormon missionary told a gay man that it was OK to become Mormon and still be gay, or said something similar to a Jewish person, just to get payment or credit of some kind for a Baptism, then that would be a more exact comparison.
Here's another thing -- how hard is it to find out about weird LDS stuff once you get handed a BOM/D&C/PGP by a Mormon? There isn't a set "level" or time limit that you reach in the Mormon church before you find out about the "War in Heaven" (where it's made obvious that Lucifer is Jesus' premortal brother). It's quite possible to find out about the Priesthood ban or Temple marriage requirements before joining the LDS church, and you don't have to scour the internet to do it. Anyone can visit Mormon church services and sing "If You Could Hie to Kolob", listen to Sunday school classes that discuss polygamy, the pre-existance, and all kinds of weird Mormon beliefs. Even though the missionaries admittedly downplay all that's oddball, most LDS chapels have libraries with books like Mormon Doctrine that freely mention all that stuff because the Mormons just take it for granted. The LDS temple endowment is an exception of course, because it's considered sacred/secret. But if you push a Mormon for details, the worst he'll say is "Sorry, I can't talk about it." Despite the colorful history of early Mormon church leaders telling whopping lies, the vast majority of today's Mormons really do believe that lying is always wrong, just *GASP* like most Christians, Jews, etc, do.
BUT - Most Scientologists will flatly state that due to the "gradients", you can't understand or study any of the higher course concepts until you've paid for and taken the courses. If you ask about Incident II or Body Thetans or any other weird stuff, they will look you straight in the eye and say "That's not true", or "I have no idea what you're talking about", because the concepts of truth and ethics have been re-defined for those circumstances.
And, again, lol, I just watched a ****ing apostle laughing about how recruitment is down and it's a really tough sell because it's required that you pay 10% of your income...so, if your perception of it's non-necessity/necessity doesn't line up with an Apostle's, I'm....gonna have to go with the Apostle, sorry.
What do you expect a Mormon Apostle to say when presenting LDS church policy in a documentary? "Well, we expect 10% tithing, but you can still come to church and we won't kick you out if you tithe less...so there's wiggle room there...." t: Like I said, I know Mormons who haven't been full tithe-payers for years, and they've never been disfellowshipped or even threatened with it, despite the fact that paying a full tithe is something that's carped about constantly in Priesthood meetings.
HE DID! That's what I said...for over 20 years. They ignored all of his letters and phone calls and some family member was encouraging it probably, but that's what everyone says when it's mentioned, "Why didn't he just have his name taken off."
HAHAHAHahaha, THAT WAS THE PROBLEM! They'd say, "Okay, and then a few months later, people would be there, wanting to talk about getting him to come back to the fold.
That's WHY I brought it up.
Did he send the official letter to Salt Lake and all that stuff? Once you've gone through all the proper channels it's supposed to be a done deal. An ex-gf of mine and her brother had the official visit from the Bishop and signed the papers to get taken off the records over 5 years ago, and they haven't heard a peep from any Churchies since. Same with another friend of mine who quit in '97. I can see where a few over-zealous members from your dad's old ward might have continued with personal naive reactivation attempts for a while, but there's not supposed to be continued personal contact after the letter is processed. If this is still a problem, I'd say your dad should contact the Stake or Mission presidents to complain about the violations and get someone in trouble.
Anyway---- I'm not suggesting that the LDS church is beyond criticism at all, believe me. They deserve a lot of the scrutiny and stinkeye aimed at their history, no doubt. However, despite your apparent philosophy that ALL organized religions are ALL evil, and ALL guilty of EXACTLY the same crimes ALWAYS, I'm afraid I see evidence to the contrary.
I realize that I've gone off on the Mormonism vs Scientology tangent for too long, and I apologize for that. I'm sure Wilhelm's gonna have some rebuttals when he gets back, but I really mean to drop the Mormon stuff after this as I realize that I'm probably just wasting space on something that no one outside of Wilhelm and myself care about.
That being said, here's a quote from the late Steve Allen, original host of The Tonight Show, writer, skeptic and critical thinker:
An Open Letter from Steve Allen to
Heber Jentzsch, President of Scientology,
Skeptic, June 1997.
When I ran into you at an airport a few weeks ago there was no opportunity to have a talk, but since I have about 49 seconds free between appointments at the office this morning it occurs to me that you might be interested in an idea that I have suggested to you and other Scientologists before. When I spoke at a convention in the East quite a few months ago, a convention at which a dozen or so Scientologists were in attendance, I said something to them along the following lines:
"If I may make a suggestion to you folks, whatever your purely
religious views are, you're entitled to them and they are
more or less in the category of not anyone else's
business.
But I also suggest that it is not because of
those views that your group doesn't have a very good
reputation. There are other churches that, in the opinion
of non-members, have some truly bizarre beliefs but no
one dislikes the individual members as a result of those
beliefs.
The Mormons are a perfect example. No
non-Mormon on Earth accepts a word of Mormon
assertions about the experiences of Joseph Smith, visits
with angels, golden plates, etc. But despite that fact the
Mormons have a very good social reputation. A number
of my personal friends are Mormons and they are for the
most part lovely and socially decent people. But - again -
the same cannot be said of Scientologists. And if I were
you it would occur to me to wonder why.
So, to save
you a little wondering time, I'll tell you why right now.
You have the reputation as just about the worst bullies
this side of the National Rifle Association. I've talked this
over with some of you and you've said that the terrible
harassments and crimes are a thing of the past, that
you've learned from your earlier mistakes, etc. That may
be true, and I certainly hope it is, not only for your sake
but for the sake of everyone concerned. But to be
honest, many people doubt that Scientology has
reformed itself in this particular regard."
As I say, Heber, those couldn't possibly have been my actual words but they do represent the point I was making at the convention. Really shameful harassments, telephone threats, and similar offenses are continuing to be perpetrated by individual Scientologists. Now it is theoretically possible that you personally don't know about the above incidents.
It may even be that you have advised your fellow-believers to cease that sort of harassment, either because you are a marvelous fellow and recognize the evil for what it is, or because you've realized -- purly out of the church's self-interest -- that that kind of conduct is precisely the sort of "public relations" which has gotten the Church of Scientology into such a bad odor in the first place.
If you are simply being devious and dishonest yourself and are perfectly aware of the kind of harassment which has been for a good many years typical of Scientology's response to perfectly fair criticism, then I don't really know what I have to say to you except to implore you to consider the possibility of reforming yourself individually and then trying to spread the good word to your fellow believers. Hey, maybe you should just walk away from Scientology and go back to the Mormon fold.
People don't have to respect what someone believes. But to scapegoat one's faith for the actions of a few crosses a line, I think. There are good Scientologists out there. Just like there are good evangelical Christians, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, etc.
The actions of COS's hierarchy do not speak for everyone involved in the church. And those actions don't serve as the reason to derail an entire faith. Neither does their oh-so-"insane" belief that an alien warlord created life on Earth. If you want to spread awareness about the actions of the evil-doers in Scientology, fine. But to pair that awareness with goals such as denying the church a tax exempt status, to what I perceive to be the ultimate goal of shutting down the religion in its entirety, goes way beyond respectfully disagreeing with the church's doctrine or deplorable behavior. This whole protest serves as 'masked intolerance,' if you ask me. Most of those people protesting COS are using this message of "awareness" as a way to cover up what they hope will be the end of Scientology. And that truly annoys me.
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...just like in Mormonism. Such as, how they play up that they are "Christians" on TV, and on home visits...and later you find out that their Jesus is actually Lucifer's brother, not his creator....and that we can all become Gods.
t: Like I said, I know Mormons who haven't been full tithe-payers for years, and they've never been disfellowshipped or even threatened with it, despite the fact that paying a full tithe is something that's carped about constantly in Priesthood meetings. 
