Jessica Jones Season 1, Episode 9 "AKA Sin Bin" (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Pwoper Nereguar]

A Reminder That This Thread Is Only To Discuss Episode 9: AKA Sin Bin

ANY SPOILERS FOR EPISODES BEYOND THIS ONE MUST BE TAGGED.

Just when Jessica has Kilgrave right where she want's him. Hogarth's involvement complicates the situation. Details of Kilgrave's past emerge.

 

[flickchick85]

"I wish I had a Mother of the Year Award, so I could bludgeon you with it."

I wonder what the key is to Jessica's Kilgrave immunity.

 

[Snow Queen]

I know this is likely not the last time I'll say this for this show, but that was my favourite so far.

 

[Pokkle]

So awesome.
It was tense, Killgrave is an amazing villain.
The end was very good!

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

"I wish I had a Mother of the Year Award, so I could bludgeon you with it."

I wonder what the key is to Jessica's Kilgrave immunity.

If it's a virus she very likely grew resistant.

 

[flickchick85]

If it's a virus she very likely grew resistant.

Seems the likely explanation.

 

[eplo]

This was probably my favorite episode of the series......tough choice though as most were excellent

 

[Mike Murdock]

I like the little things that I susepct are leading to something. The aborted fetus earlier seems to be one. It was sent to a special lab. The other big one is Simpson. For that one, they recreated exactly who Nuke is by the end of the episode. I wonder if that's going to pay off this season or saved for something else. There are some other little moments I like. The conversation about pleading guilty. There are many times a defense attorney says that it's the best chance they have and they don't want to do it because it's a lie. I hope she made the right call.

I also like that our understanding of what happened with the parents isn't really what it seemed (at the same time, you can see why Killgrave would feel that way). But it led to a great payoff with the confrontation. Now that they have this evidence, I'm curious to see where going to go from here. I like that Jessica realized that his powers don't work on her (which may be something Killgrave already realized). Let's see.

Five Stars.

 

[sabetoonth]

Im am not done yet, but I'm up to the

Spoiler

Hermetic chamber

And I'm almost screaming at Jess, because I have a bad feeling about Hoggarth and Kilgrave.

 

[Overman27pj]

This episode was so intense it was hard to watch.

I get so frustrated with superheroes who abide by the law, or hope that courts will do justice.

 

[sabetoonth]

Just finished this one and I feel like I need a drink.

 

[samsnee]

"I wish I had a Mother of the Year Award, so I could bludgeon you with it."

I wonder what the key is to Jessica's Kilgrave immunity.

Didn't she say his powers don't work over a microphone? It explains why he doesn't just call her up and control her.

 

[flickchick85]

Yes, that's accurate, but as we saw at the end of this episode, his powers don't work on her in person either.

 

[Heretic]

I feel like the show hit a bit of a drop with the whole

Spoiler

"live with Kilgrave"

thing...

But at this point it dropped off the cliff.

Spoiler

COME ON! They said that they needed a cop to testify that Kilgrave has powers...and there is a cop OBSESSED with stopping Kilgrave because Kilgrave manipulated him into trying to kill yet another person who really wants to get back at him. And this private investigator can't put the pieces together and instead goes on a bunch of silly and illegal adventures. Kilgrave's own parents want to stop him, yet it never occurs to anyone to say "hey, maybe we can testify!" The idea that a man could be held captive and tortured and then ANY confession he made be held against him is ABSURD. There's an entire support group who are openly talking about him...yet none of them want to testify?

Plus...now Simpson...who I really, really didn't like anyway...is Nuke? No thanks.

 

[Darkraid]

This episode is great! Loved the ending.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I feel like the show hit a bit of a drop with the whole

Spoiler

"live with Kilgrave"

thing...

But at this point it dropped off the cliff.

Spoiler

COME ON! They said that they needed a cop to testify that Kilgrave has powers...and there is a cop OBSESSED with stopping Kilgrave because Kilgrave manipulated him into trying to kill yet another person who really wants to get back at him. And this private investigator can't put the pieces together and instead goes on a bunch of silly and illegal adventures. Kilgrave's own parents want to stop him, yet it never occurs to anyone to say "hey, maybe we can testify!" The idea that a man could be held captive and tortured and then ANY confession he made be held against him is ABSURD. There's an entire support group who are openly talking about him...yet none of them want to testify?

Plus...now Simpson...who I really, really didn't like anyway...is Nuke? No thanks.

I think for something like this, you do need more than just a bunch of random people testifying. It's not something all that easy to believe and it's pretty easy to fake (just pay a bunch of people to say whatever you want).

Simpson would make a poor witness for a number of reasons that became abundantly clear the moment he went AWOL from the job for a couple of weeks. A seasoned homicide detective (who was the lead detective on the case this testimony is about) is a much more credible witness.

 

[Heretic]

I think for something like this, you do need more than just a bunch of random people testifying. It's not something all that easy to believe and it's pretty easy to fake (just pay a bunch of people to say whatever you want).

Simpson would make a poor witness for a number of reasons that became abundantly clear the moment he went AWOL from the job for a couple of weeks. A seasoned homicide detective (who was the lead detective on the case this testimony is about) is a much more credible witness.

And it would have been cool if Jessica had said "Hey...you're a cop...how about testifying..." and he responded "No...I'm going to kill him." They wanted to put him together with Trish for some reason...and having her date the guy who tried to kill her weakened her character considerably. They should have just made it clear that he was nuts from the start, rather than try to give him this stupid arc. It's characters not doing and saying what people would do and say, just to keep the plot going.

 

[Ghostcrow13]

And it would have been cool if Jessica had said "Hey...you're a cop...how about testifying..." and he responded "No...I'm going to kill him." They wanted to put him together with Trish for some reason...and having her date the guy who tried to kill her weakened her character considerably. They should have just made it clear that he was nuts from the start, rather than try to give him this stupid arc. It's characters not doing and saying what people would do and say, just to keep the plot going.

He said he wanted to kill him loads of times, and she was saying she wanted him alive. There was no need for Jessica to ask him to testify.

 

[Heretic]

He said he wanted to kill him loads of times, and she was saying she wanted him alive. There was no need for Jessica to ask him to testify.

There's a need because it is rightful to assume that he wasn't a psycho who would later turn into a supervillain. You know that happened...but Jessica and Hope's lawyer had no reason to suspect that would happen.

Heck...the only reason why the support group even exists is because they wanted witnesses...and then as soon as the group formed the idea of testifying was dropped.

Heck...an entire police department was manipulated by Kilgrave...and NONE of them will admit that it happened? They ALL know that Hope is telling the truth...yet they believe that the city will fire them all in one fell swoop??

This is a world where an alien armada attacked the city and a Norse god saved the world with the help of a guy who turns into a green monster. Juries are ready to believe LOTS of crazy stuff. It's even a subplot that there is hysteria and fear spreading in the populace.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe a bit more time could have been spent on Hope's case actually being worked on by Jeri...and less time on Nuke...or at least develop him in relation to the court case. Maybe even have them meet at some point and have him be unreasonable. I just can't accept that a cop met Kilgrave and neither the cop or the lawyer cared to meet.

Instead...we got an episode where Kilgrave was kidnapped, thrown in a room and tortured...because they thought that he might confess, which every court room in the world would toss right out. If the support group cast was not good for a jury, the kidnap and torture CERTAINLY wouldn't be good for the case. Heck...Kilgrave would have been called to testify...and his power is that his words control people...so exactly what use would that court case have been anyway, since they ABSOLUTELY would have found him not guilty, regardless of the evidence.

 

[Keyser Soze]

EPISODE 9: AKA SIN BIN
Another clever, deliciously dark episode. I loved what they did with Kilgrave here, it was almost reminiscent of Trinity in DEXTER how they set up this shrivelled little nugget of humanity under all the wickedness only to pull the rug out from under your feet and say, "Nope under the awful is just more awful." Also, with the various characters in Jessica's life largely kept in their own separate spheres, it was nice seeing the ensemble all come together and start playing off one another here. Though this in turn made me feel Luke Cage's absence even more sorely... 3 episodes he's been gone for now! Overall, a great little claustrophobic, locked-room thriller that played with the idea of power dynamics, and put the power back in Jessica's hands in a really satisfying way.

 

[Keyser Soze]

In reply to Heretic's comments, I'm still really enjoying the show, but he makes some valid points. I think the whole approach to Hope's case and the quest to find proof of Kilgrave's existence has been quite shoddily handled, with a lot of holes in terms of, "Why don't they just do this?" Yes, there could be plot reasons why the various people Kilgrave has controlled can't testify, but I feel the writers should have at least acknowledged this by having someone say, "Hey, why don't we do this?" and have someone else say, "No, because..." I appreciate the writers wanting the story to be resolved a certain way, but threads like that at least need to be addressed if you're not going to follow them.

For me there was a plateau around episodes 4-5 where this aspect was really bugging me and taking me out of my enjoyment of the show, but I think I hit a turning point where I accepted it as a flaw I could live with and that I wouldn't let it colour my enjoyment of all the other elements on the show.

 

[The Question]

I feel like the show hit a bit of a drop with the whole

Spoiler

"live with Kilgrave"

thing...

But at this point it dropped off the cliff.

Spoiler

COME ON! They said that they needed a cop to testify that Kilgrave has powers...and there is a cop OBSESSED with stopping Kilgrave because Kilgrave manipulated him into trying to kill yet another person who really wants to get back at him. And this private investigator can't put the pieces together and instead goes on a bunch of silly and illegal adventures. Kilgrave's own parents want to stop him, yet it never occurs to anyone to say "hey, maybe we can testify!" The idea that a man could be held captive and tortured and then ANY confession he made be held against him is ABSURD. There's an entire support group who are openly talking about him...yet none of them want to testify?

Plus...now Simpson...who I really, really didn't like anyway...is Nuke? No thanks.

Spoiler

1. Jessica knows that Simpson wants to kill Killgrave more than he wants to prosecute him.

2. Jessica doesn't like him at all.

3. The parents testimony wouldn't prove anything. Neither would the support group. They are trying to prove that mind control is possible and that Killgrave is capable of it. The parents and the support group wouldn't accomplish that.

4. They're not trying to get Killgrave to confess. They're trying to get him to use his powers on camera so they can prove that he is capable of mind control.

 

[The Question]

Heck…the only reason why the support group even exists is because they wanted witnesses…and then as soon as the group formed the idea of testifying was dropped.

The idea wasn't dropped. It was stated that their testimony would be useless unless they had evidence that would allow the court to accept the existence of mind control as an accepted fact.

This is a world where an alien armada attacked the city and a Norse god saved the world with the help of a guy who turns into a green monster. Juries are ready to believe LOTS of crazy stuff. It's even a subplot that there is hysteria and fear spreading in the populace.

That's not how the courts work. The Judge has discretion as to wether or not alleged facts will be assumed to be true by the court and will be allowed to be presented to a jury in an argument, based on various standards, including standards of scientific consensus and evidence. In our world, a defense attorney can't attempt to create reasonable doubt by arguing that their client was abducted by aliens, because there is no scientific consensus that alien abduction is a real phenomena. A judge would never allow the attorney to make that argument, nor would a judge in the MCU allow an attorney to argue that their client is innocent for reasons of mind control, because mind control is not something that has been established to actually exist in the MCU from a legal or scientific perspective.

Instead...we got an episode where Kilgrave was kidnapped, thrown in a room and tortured...because they thought that he might confess, which every court room in the world would toss right out.

Again, no, they didn't. It was explicitly stated that their goal was to force Killgrave to use his powers and to film it, thus providing video evidence of the existence of mind control. The idea of a forced confession was even brought up and dismissed on the grounds that you mentioned, because that's not what they were trying to do.

Also, remember that their primary goal in getting this evidence isn't to prosecute Killgrave, it's to create reasonable doubt for Hope's case. They want to establish mind control as a thing that exists and can be brought up as an argument in court so that Hope can get acquitted. While using illegal means to establish credibility for an alleged scientific fact is an unprecedented legal grey area and would stand a chance of tainting, or at least seriously overcomplicating, any attempt to prosecute Killgrave, that's also not their primary concern at the moment.

 

[sabetoonth]

Spoiler

Even Jess was only holding out because she needed to prove Kilgrave could control people for Hope's case. Because she wante him dead too, but needed him alive a long as she was.

 

[Heretic]

The idea wasn't dropped. It was stated that their testimony would be useless unless they had evidence that would allow the court to accept the existence of mind control as an accepted fact.



That's not how the courts work. The Judge has discretion as to wether or not alleged facts will be assumed to be true by the court and will be allowed to be presented to a jury in an argument, based on various standards, including standards of scientific consensus and evidence. In our world, a defense attorney can't attempt to create reasonable doubt by arguing that their client was abducted by aliens, because there is no scientific consensus that alien abduction is a real phenomena. A judge would never allow the attorney to make that argument, nor would a judge in the MCU allow an attorney to argue that their client is innocent for reasons of mind control, because mind control is not something that has been established to actually exist in the MCU from a legal or scientific perspective.



Again, no, they didn't. It was explicitly stated that their goal was to force Killgrave to use his powers and to film it, thus providing video evidence of the existence of mind control. The idea of a forced confession was even brought up and dismissed on the grounds that you mentioned, because that's not what they were trying to do.

Also, remember that their primary goal in getting this evidence isn't to prosecute Killgrave, it's to create reasonable doubt for Hope's case. They want to establish mind control as a thing that exists and can be brought up as an argument in court so that Hope can get acquitted. While using illegal means to establish credibility for an alleged scientific fact is an unprecedented legal grey area and would stand a chance of tainting, or at least seriously overcomplicating, any attempt to prosecute Killgrave, that's also not their primary concern at the moment.

I meant "confess" by using his powers on tape. Kilgrave uses his powers how, exactly? Have Jessica hit herself? "Your honor...this woman kidnapped my client, tortured him...and then CHOSE to hit herself when he said to...if my client truly had powers, he'd have had her kill herself, which he did not do." The plan was stupid because the only way they could have proved that he had powers was if he killed Jessica. It's a STUPID plan because how do you prove that she didnt just do whatever he said? It would be far MORE convincing to have a hundred people testify that it happened to them.

Mind control HAS been proven to exist in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. "Your honor...I call Hawkeye and Dr Selvig to the stand."

Besides, this is not the real world we're talking about. It's the MCU. Courts MUST adapt to the fact that people with superpowers are popping up.