Season 1, Episode 9 "AKA Sin Bin" (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

Discussion in 'Jessica Jones' started by Pwoper Nereguar, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    I feel the same way...the show started great and then after the first handful of shows the issues started piling up. What I like in a story is simple. I want characters to naturally do A which leads to B which leads to C, because that is the natural result of A and B. Unfortunately, what we got here (and I felt that way about Agent Carter as well) is that they wanted C to happen, so characters jumped through illogical hoops to get there.

    That doesn't mean that I hated the series. I just think it was a major step down from Daredevil...and Daredevil was awesome. I'm not giving everything 5 stars, because that makes the stars worthless.
     
  2. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    1. Legally, that's not what a confession is. The legal function of a confession and the legal function of establishing the credibility of an alleged scientific fact are two different things.

    2. That's part of why Jessica going in there and punching him wouldn't/didn't work. Even if he could have controlled her at the time, you're right, that wouldn't be very strong evidence. But that was also the point of that scene. Jessica was fairly desperate in trying to figure out a way to get video evidence of Killgrave's power, and the beatdown was an act of desperation. That's why the parents were a eureka moment, because the emotional duress Killgrave would experience when confronted with them could (and did) lead him to command them to do something more extreme that is more obvious proof of his powers.

    3. Far more convincing to a jury? Perhaps. Far more convincing for the judge in the pre-trial hearing about wether or not the very notion of mind control would be admissible in court? Absolutely not.

    In the American court system, there are two roles performed by the judge and the jury respectively: the trier of the law, and the trier of the facts. The jury, as the trier of the facts, has the job of determining wether or not there is reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, and wether or not the testimony, evidence, and arguments of the attorneys establish or demolish any notion of reasonable doubt.

    The judge, as the trier or law, decides wether or not a piece of evidence or testimony has enough legal legitimacy to even be brought before the jury in the first place. In that context, the testimony of Killgrave's victims would never make it to the stand.

    The court first has to officially presume that mind control exists before any testimony about mind control can be allowed to be called forth. That's why they needed both the support group victims AND video evidence of Killgrave's powers. While they didn't go into the detail language I used here, they did make this point very clear in the show.

    4. Once again, you're arguments assume that the primary goal is to prosecute Killgrave. It is not. The primary goal is to make the mind control argument admissible in court in order to generate reasonable doubt in Hope's case.

    No, mind control has not been proven to exist in the MCU. Mind control has happened in the MCU, but there is no indication that its existence has ever been verified by anyone who was not personally involved in the events of the first Avengers movie.

    Seeing as how Loki's mind control of Hawkeye and Selvig is never once mentioned at any point in Jessica Jones, we can assume that this particular detail of the Battle of New York is not common knowledge in the MCU. I honestly don't see any reason why it would be.

    Why?

    That doesn't make any sense to me.

    The legal standard is that, until an alleged fact has been established to be true by objective and/or scientific consensus, the court will not presume that fact to be true.

    A relatively new fact established by objective consensus is that aliens and people with super powers exist. Why in the world would the courts then be forced to throw out this standard entirely? That would ultimately result in the court system becoming even more clogged than it already is with people making completely unfounded and unfalsifiable claims as part of their defense (or prosecution). Hell, the prosecution side of it becomes even worse, because DA offices would be able to beef up flimsy cases with claims they pull out of nowhere, and justify it by saying "The Hulk is real, so how do we know it isn't true?"

    HIV existed, and had already infected thousands of people around the world, in 1950. It's existence had not yet been proven, but it was real. And on top of that, new diseases are discovered or come into existence all the time. But, a legal defense in 1950 would never have been allowed to use HIV in its argument, despite the fact that it did exist then and new diseases are discovered all the time so who are we to say it doesn't exist, because as far as the court is concerned, it is an unverified fact, and therefor cannot be brought up in court.

    I see no reason why the courts would choose to abandon this entirely reasonable legal principal just because scientific understanding of what is possible has changed. That happens all the time in the real world, and we still stick to the standard.

    In any event, seeing as how it is clearly stated in Jessica Jones that providing evidence of the existence of mind control is necessary before it can be used as a legal defense, I think we can assume that this legal standard is still in use in the MCU.
     
    #27 The Question, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  3. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    I get it..."confess" was a poor choice of words. But then again...she was trying to record him confessing on her phone...and he was avoiding confessing in the cell (as if it mattered).

    The difference in this case from most is that not only does the defendant claim that this particular British guy exist...so does a hundred other people who claim to have been manipulated by him. Her lawyer even gathered a bunch of people who could verify his existence, and then they never had anything to do with the case again.

    Jeri even says in Sin Bin that in order to establish a good enough eye witness, they'd need someone like a cop to witness his powers in action. SO THEY KIDNAP A COP. Meanwhile...prior to all of that they HAD a cop that had been manipulated by him, and it never occurred to them to even ask him to testify.

    If they didn't need the first cop enough to ask...then they CERTAINLY didn't need the second cop enough to handcuff him in the room.

    The. Plan. Was. Stupid.

    And I believe that the reason why they chose to overlook Simmons as being a potential witness was because they wanted to develop him in a different way...and I don't like the way they chose because I think it weakened Trish. That may not actually be the reason why they overlooked it, but it still had that effect on me.
     
  4. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    Yes, because recording Killgrave confessing to being able to control minds unprompted would help in establishing the credibility of the claim. Wouldn't be airtight by itself, but it would help. And also, remember, Jessica was throughout the series absolutely desperate for anything that might help Hope. She was grasping at straws, primarily because she had no other options.

    1. That doesn't make a bit of difference. That simply would not be enough for the judge to allow the mind control defense to be used. There is a very specific legal protocol for presumption of a fact, and simply having a bunch of eyewitnesses doesn't meet those standards.

    2. Yes, they had nothing to do with the case again, because after they were all gathered together it became clear that they had not gathered enough information to establish the fact of mind control in court. Had they gathered that evidence, those witnesses would have been able to give invaluable testimony.

    You're confusing what was going on with the detective with testimony.

    Testimony, even the testimony of a cop, would never be good enough for the court to presume that mind control exists.

    What was going on with the detective in the CDC building, however, had nothing to do with testimony. Or, at least, it had nothing to do with eyewitness testimony of Killgrave's powers.

    The detective was serving as a legal witness, to lend legal credibility to the video. So, when the tape was brought before a judge, the detective could be there and say "I was there, and I swear as an officer of the courts that the video depicts events as they happened, and the footage was not tampered with in any way." That is different from Simpson's potential eyewitness testimony, and would actually help lend credibility to the mind control claim so that it could be presumed by the court. Simpson's personal testimony of his being mind controlled would not be able to do that.

    As said above, what the detective did and what you're suggesting Simpson could have done are two entirely different things, legally speaking.

    And, on top of that, the reasons why Simpson couldn't serve as the legal witness are obvious. Simpson had made it perfectly clear that he wanted to kill Killgrave, not keep him alive to prove Hope's innocence, and it was very clear that Jessica did not trust Simpson to be around Killgrave.

    Perhaps, but

    1. Not for the reasons you say it is.

    and 2. it was quite literally the only option they had. Proving the existence of mind control when the subject is uncooperative and you have a ticking clock would be next to impossible.
     
  5. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    What is wrong with you guys? Have I commented on ANY on your posts telling you that you shouldn't like what you like? No. For some reason, when someone doesn't like something, other people gang up to inform them that they are wrong and they should like something. It never goes the other way...maybe because I'm not a child. You liked it, fantastic? I didn't like it...and people feel the need to tell the world that I'm wrong.

    But I get it...I'm at Superhero Hype...where every project gets 5 star reviews...and every flaw that others see is just trolling.

    1. A hundred people testifying that they were forced to do something by the same guy isn't good for court...but a tape recording of some unknown guy confessing to powers that haven't been proven to exist WOULD? It's just some no-name admitting to super powers...that isn't even remotely evidence.

    2. When the stuff was going on in the Sin Bin, the cop was unable to see what was happening in the cell...and it was mentioned that he didn't see what was happening. Sorry if I got confused...I guess the characters in the room were as well.

    3. Simpson was not immediately irrational. In fact, at first he was working with Jessica. He even chose to shoot him with a tranquilizer dart instead of a bullet. Yet, again, at no time did anyone think to get him involved in clearing Hope. Two birds with one stone. I know that clearing her was not his immediate concern, but it seems like, as a cop, he could have helped in some way...instead of just going home...during a time when they were actively gathering victims. If gathering victims was pointless...then gathering victims was pointless...and it only happened in order to serve what would happen later with the group...so...C didn't follow A and B...A and B happened because C had to.

    But again...I didn't like it...you did. Accept that. You will not find anyone responding to positive reviews with "Here's why you're wrong."

    I guess right about now is when I'm called a troll.
     
  6. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    Okay, dude, I absolutely do not care wether or not you like anything.

    But you started talking about a perceived plot hole based on the narrative's application of the law, and your understanding of the legal principals involved was flawed, so I decided to comment on it. That is only horse in this race. Like or dislike what you want.

    No, that wouldn't be good enough for the court to presume the existence of mind control. Not by itself. But combined with the video evidence (which was always plan A), it would strengthen the case quite a bit, and as I said, in that moment Jessica was desperate and grasping at straws.

    The cop couldn't see Killgrave's mother pick up the knife when he commanded her to. He could see what was happing inside of the cell in general, and absolutely did see Killgrave's mother stab herself.

    He was involved in clearing Hope. He was helping them capture Killgrave alive, and set up the containment cell for him. Even as a cop, there is nothing else he could have done to help. At that point in the story, eyewitness testimony of Killgrave's powers, even the eyewitness testimony of a police officer, would have been useless.

    And like I said, gathering victims was not pointless. It was an obvious first step in Jessica's investigation, it helped her convince Hoggarth of Killgrave's existence, and if they managed to get actual evidence of Killgrave's powers that would allow the court to presume the existence of mind control, then they would have been able to offer invaluable testimony in court.

    And again, I do not care that you didn't like it. You made some comments about the court system that were incorrect, and I said something about it. That's it.
     
  7. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    I know that the cop could see the cell...it was huge...but he didn't see her do what she was told to do...and it was pointed out that he missed that. So...who cares if he saw it? He was only there to verify that the tape was not tampered with, right? Now he needed to witness the event as well? They already had a cop who WAS an event.

    The plan was stupid because, as designed, it could not have gotten any usable evidence.

    Okay...I get it...eyewitness testimony is useless...which means that the lawyer never should have gathered victims together and that entire subplot shouldn't exist.

    Of course, what COULD have been done is this...
    "You're a cop...maybe you can help by going to the police and telling them what happened"
    "Are you crazy? I'm not going to confess to a crime. They'll find bruises on the victim and lock me up. I'll help...but we need to keep this away from the police." Heck...it could have been used later to show that he didn't want anyone digging around in his history to show that he was a part of a program etc.

    I'm not saying that it's a plot hole. I'm saying that A and B happened because they wanted to get to C. I don't like hardly ANY decisions made with the Simpson character. Like...I didn't like his relationship with Trish. It wasn't a plot hole...I just felt like she wouldn't have fallen for him, based on what we knew about her. I'm saying that his character was not handled in a way that felt natural for me.

    I contend again though that you are talking about courts in the real world. I am talking about fictional courts in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The president has admitted on television that there are people with super powers. This city in particular has been devastated by people with super powers. You have a defendant, a cop, a private investigator, a respected local celebrity, and dozens of people who have never met any of them, saying that this guy exists and that they did insane things merely because they were told to. You have a jury made up of people who are likely fearful of super powers and getting paranoid. I'm saying that in this reality, it is more likely that this would have at least gone to show some sort of mass delusion that would go to temporary insanity than some unknown voice admitting to powers on a recording...or a videotape of a guy being tortured until he tells someone to stop and then they stop (when that person's entire goal was to prove that they would stop if told to).

    Maybe you're right that eyewitnesses and other victims ALSO wouldn't have helped...but again...that means that the lawyer wasted everyone's time previously.
     
  8. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    1. A legal witness has to understand what it is that they're witnessing. Otherwise, he can't actually verify the authenticity of it.

    2. He could see her do what she was told to do. He specifically didn't see her pick up the scissors when she was told to. He did se her stab herself. This was clearly spelled out in the episode.

    Yes, it could have. You just weren't paying attention.

    Yes, Hoggarth should have gathered victims together, because that was a logical first step in the investigation, and because once they had physical evidence of Killgrave's powers their testimony would no longer be useless.

    What would that have added to anything. Him being a cop would not have given his testimony any additional weight.

    That's fine.

    But that is not how the law works. It's not how the law works in the real world, and it is clearly not how the law works in the MCU because the characters behaved as if that's not how the law works, and no indication was ever given that the law would work any differently.

    Also, as I have said, it would make absolutely no sense for the law to work differently for the reasons you've given.

    "Aliens exist! So let's throw out all previous rigorous standards of presumption" would only result in an even more clogged and even less just court system.

    What juries would believe is irrelevant. The judge would never allow them to hear the argument in the first place. That is a simple fact of the legal system in real life, and the characters actions reflect that fact within the narrative.

    And, again, because you're getting caught up on it so much, I will repeat myself:

    1. The taped confession was an act of desperation that wouldn't have convicted Killgrave, but would have strengthened the argument for reasonable doubt in Hope's case when paired with the video evidence, which was always the primary plan.

    2. Simply stopping punching him when told also would not have proved anything by itself, but that was also a desperate act that the narrative acknowledged as a desperate act as it came in the middle of a sequence when Jessica was desperately trying to figure out how to get Killgrave to use his powers on camera in a way that would definitively show that his powers existed. That's why the parents were a eureka moment, because Jessica knew that in his emotional panic at seeing them, he'd impulsively have them do something so extreme that it would prove that he had powers (which was true).

    She didn't waste everyone's time. That was a logical first step in an investigation, it had the potential to yield more than it did, and like I have said again and again and again, their testimony would have been incredibly useful once there was evidence to allow the existence of mind control to be presumed by the court.

    Let me spell that last part out for you.

    For an alleged fact to be presumed by the court, all that means is that a judge has agreed that something that one of the attorneys wants to the court to assume exists so that it can be used in their argument does, in fact, exist. You can't just say any old science-y sounding thing and use it in your argument, it has to be presumed by the court to be true before it can be argued before a jury.

    Once an alleged fact is presumed to exist, all that means is that you now have the opportunity to use that argument in front of a jury. You still need to argue before the jury and convince them that your argument is correct.

    They needed video evidence of Killgrave's power before the judge would allow the court to presume the existence of mind control.

    After that, the support group victims would be necessary to use as eyewitnesses in convincing the jury of the argument that Hope was mind controlled.
     
    #33 The Question, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  9. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    They were not going to get evidence of Kilgraves power unless they actually filmed him kill someone. Their plan was to stop him before he actually hurt anyone.

    "You see, your honor...I kidnapped and tortured this man...and after I beat him for awhile, he told me to stop...AND I DID...see, he has super powers! I mean, I could not have possibly stopped on my own free will just to try to convince you that he made me stop with his words! Don't get me wrong...I did all of this just to show that he could make me stop...but then he said stop, and I stopped...EVIDENCE"

    So...after their big plan worked, they would have a hundred other victims, a useless confession on tape, and a useless video that only proved that THEY committed a crime against an innocent man. Not to mention that they kidnapped a police officer in the process.

    I admit though...I am not an attorney and have zero experience in a court room...so everything you're saying about the rules of what is allowed etc may very well be correct. I perhaps would have enjoyed the process had it been explained a bit more to me during the show. That other victims are important, but only if they prove the guy exists...but a police officer victim is useless to the point of not even needing to get a statement...but kidnapping someone and torturing them is evidence etc etc etc.
     
  10. Broseph44

    Broseph44 Witness Me

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    The Question laying down the law, I like it :up:
     
  11. sabetoonth

    sabetoonth Where You Get Those Eyes?

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    As for what Question is saying, I've taken a few classes in Law and can corroborate that's how it works.
     
  12. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    Thats great that it works that way...I have never claimed to be an expert on how the justice system works.

    But that doesn't address my main problem...that kidnapping Kilgrave had ZERO chance of producing any evidence that could be used in court.
     
  13. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    By the way...I'll add that I think it's a darn shame that a hundred people who dont know each other could show up claiming the same thing...something verified by traffic camera video that exists...showing these people all meeting one individual and then doing insane things...and the cops wouldn't bother even considering that maybe...just maybe...they should find that guy.
     
  14. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    Think about those 2 kids, who I dont think they ever showed dead.

    "Why were you in the closet for days?"
    "Well...some British guy came in and told us to...then he lived in our house for a few days, then he told my parents to kill themselves, so they did."

    I just find it hard to believe that the cops would simply close that case and shrug their shoulders. Eventually...after you get a hundred or so people...you clearly have a bizarre, mysterious pattern.
     
  15. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    Except that it did have a chance. I've explained how it had a chance several times. Video evidence of a phenomena coroberated by an officer of the courts serving as a legal witness is not the same thing as a confession. It has different legal standards of admissibility, and such evidence acquired through illegal means is in all hobesty an unprecedented legal grey area.

    As for you earlier point about Jessica stopping her get down if Killgrave when told to stop, it's been spelled out tone and time again that that was an act of desperation, as Jessica was hitting a wall in figuring out how to force Killgrave to use his powers, and finding the parents was the Eureka moment. The footage they got of Killgrave and his parents would have been admissible and would have offered them a solid shot of obtaining a presumption, had the tale not been destroyed in the fire.

    Or, you have an urban legend about a man with mind control and people latching onto it in order to abdicate responsibility for poor choices.
     
  16. Quasimod0

    Quasimod0 Bell-Ringer

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    Man Jessica is making some bad decisions, and they're leading to more people getting hurt and killed.
    It was good to see flat-out evil Kilgrave at the end there. I was getting tired of him being sympathetic.
     
  17. Heretic

    Heretic Registered

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    Right. It was an act of desperation that had a ZERO percent chance of working, UNLESS someone got killed. That's an awful plan. I'm not calling it a plot hole, I'm calling it a stupid plan. And it WAS...because her plan failed and then eventually got someone killed.

    It doesn't matter if it is actual mind control or a mass delusion. The evidence that the police would have had before Jessica even grabbed Kilgrave would have shown that there was a mass delusion in the city causing people to kill themselves or someone else, all revolving around this one British guy that sparks the delusion in each person. Again...I'm not saying that Hope should be found not guilty...I'm not saying it is evidence of mind control...I'm saying that at some point the cops should maybe look into the fact that people are dying all over the city and doing other insane things that they wouldn't normally do, and it is all related to the Hope case, because the home of one of the victims was covered in pictures of the private investigator working for Hope. How many dead bodies does it take for some questions to be asked?

    But...you're right...all we have here is mass delusion. As you have repeatedly said...it doesn't matter how many people think they witnessed it...it doesn't matter how many people were victims...it doesn't matter how many dead bodies are involved...it doesn't matter if cops are involved...it doesn't matter if it is on video...none of that matters unless you get a cop to witness a live recording of an event, without being a victim himself. Without proof of supernatural powers, all you have is mass delusion.

    Which complicates matters later in the season...which we discussed in a private message.
     
  18. Speed Force

    Speed Force Hope, help and compassion

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    Very intense episode, that's for sure.
     
  19. Mjölnir

    Mjölnir Guest

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    Long conversation to go through so rather than adding to it I'll just say that I think The Question is spot on in pretty much everything he's said. A good analysis of the events and the situation.
     
  20. Loki882

    Loki882 Registered

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    As someone who has a criminal justice degree, I can safely say that the law often moves VERY slow. It takes a long time, sometimes shockingly so for the legal statutes to catch up, even with new technology. For example, there was a famous case a while back where the mother of a teenage girl cyberbullied another teenage girl so much and so badly, that the poor girl snapped and killed herself. And despite her being clearly guilty as sin and most people wanting her punished, they could only get her on a minor misdemeanor charge because, at the time, there was no statute on the books for cyberbullying because it wasn't a problem when those statues were originally written. And it can take months, sometimes even years, to change them.

    Then you stuff like there still being debate about whether Multiple Personalities or psychics exist, despite many "eyewitnesses" who claim to see them. Now you throw stuff like mind-control, aliens, etc into the mix and it's an even bigger mess.
     
  21. Marvel Spider

    Marvel Spider An Insomniac.

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    Been busy for the past few days, so I just got around to seeing this one today. Those last few minutes, man. So intense.
     
  22. KRYPTON INC.

    KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    Well... Just when I thought Killgrave couldn't get any more repulsive.

    I think we are seeing that, yes, Jessica hasn't reckoned with the difficulty of what she is attempting to pull off but that's not in any way a knock on the writing or the character. i don't think that it's a necessity that your protagonist has to always be infallible, always think clearly or have things work out for her all the time and not be culpable when things go pear shaped. That's the mark of taking pains to have a vulnerable, three dimensional character.

    [BLACKOUT]I will say that I take back EVERYTHING I wrote about how the Hogarth stuff and the Simpson stuff seemed to be a bit on the superfluous side while still being quality in their execution. I can now see how that is going to fit into the last few episodes and have some payoff. Kudos show. The creators are far better at crafting this story than I had even already given them credit for. We see that Hogarth's struggles in her divorce proceedings has lead to a most serious and probably deadly lapse in judgment. I am surprised myself that I didn't find the revelation that Jessica is currently immune to Killgrave as being from out of nowhere. The show has built up the credibility with me as a viewer that I trust it at this point. [/BLACKOUT]

    A great, tense episode and this looks to be the home stretch or the beginning of it anyway.
     
  23. Spider-Aziz

    Spider-Aziz Not the Voice You Know

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    Oh wow,
    it took me this long to think of Nuke.
    Yeah, I had to see the flag colored pills to think of him.
     
  24. Mike Murdock

    Mike Murdock Registered

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    In fairness, unless you know the character's name (which I don't think is even revealed in his debut comic), the pills are the first actual reference to the comics that would clue you in. I only knew it was coming because they announced it at comic-con and during interviews.
     
  25. Spiderdevil

    Spiderdevil Registered

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    Agreed that was incredibly stupid, there was
    no way that 'confession' would ever get accepted, policeman or not, the wise thing to do would have the parents testify, they would have documents to prove they were his parents and he had a degenerative nerve disease, there were the tapes, then the documents in England proving the child experiments, it was all there and for a sharp lawyer like Hogarth, it would be enough, but instead, lets stick em up in the cage as baits!
     

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