Seven Dead in Drive-By Shooting Near UC Santa Barbara

[DeadPresident]

I don't think so. If it was, I missed it. I'm desperately interested to read it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...c7e7ea-e40d-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html

It's ****ing stupidity. It's the same logic used to blame violent video games or death metal for the school shootings in the past.

I'm not saying some of the movies don't frame interpersonal interactions in an unrealistic way, but using "People find out real life isn't like the movies" as an explanation for an anomalous incident is ridiculous. This article would be taken a lot more seriously if the journalist didn't single out Rogen/Apatow's movies. Rather say something like contemporary cinema tends to create unrealistic expectations instead of coming across like there's a vendetta against two individuals.

 

[Tempest]

Here you go.

Emphasis mine.

It's very interesting. And there is some truth to the article. I'm sure the entertainment industry, both with films and with real life, had some influence on him. I'm not sure it can be said it was the main influence on his actions, but it's worth talking about.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The causes of misogyny, racism, and materialism within American culture is far broader and complex than a single career of a director.

Blaming it all on one guy is all smokes and mirrors. Shame on those people.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Everyone is dissecting materialism, misogyny, and racism in white male culture?

Lets point the finger at one or two Jews in Hollywood.

 

[Tempest]

Everyone is dissecting materialism, misogyny, and racism in white male culture....."

Your statement is kind of inappropriate. I didn't quote the whole thing in case you rethink and decide to edit. Since you know. It wasn't thoughtful.

 

[DeadPresident]

The causes of misogyny, racism, and materialism within American culture is far broader and complex than a single career of a director.

Blaming it all on one guy is all smokes and mirrors. Shame on those people.

It seems like with incidents like these "experts" tend to concentrate on single social issues rather than realizing it's a convergence of a lot of relevant topics. Feminists, mental health professionals, human rights experts all seem to be championing their own views and erasing the influence of the others, it all compounds how fractured the situation already is.

 

[Tempest]

It seems like with incidents like these "experts" tend to concentrate on single social issues rather than realizing it's a convergence of a lot of relevant topics. Feminists, mental health professionals, human rights experts all seem to be championing their own views and erasing the influence of the others, it all compounds how fractured the situation already is.

To be fair, feminists aren't generally saying that misogyny is the ONLY issue at play here. Clearly that is not the case. What most of them have been saying is that we can't dismiss the misogyny that is so prevalent in this case. And most of the response has been driven by the attempts of various people to say that it's "not all men" (that's how #yesallwomen was born).

There's plenty of things to talk about, from mental health issues, health rights, rights of families, to mishandled police efforts, to general social apathy towards people who are loners or 'losers', not to mention the misogyny, racism, and class.

I would argue that there is even an issue between mental illness and personality disorders, and how they are often misdiagnosed and mishandled.

There was only so much of the manifesto I could handle, but I would guess that some of the issues could even be linked to his conception, which occurred while his mother was on antibiotics and birth control pills (or so he says). Not just that, but I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of his issues with women go back to his sister's birth.

 

[DeadPresident]

To be fair, feminists aren't generally saying that misogyny is the ONLY issue at play here. Clearly that is not the case. What most of them have been saying is that we can't dismiss the misogyny that is so prevalent in this case. And most of the response has been driven by the attempts of various people to say that it's "not all men" (that's how #yesallwomen was born).

There's plenty of things to talk about, from mental health issues, health rights, rights of families, to mishandled police efforts, to general social apathy towards people who are loners or 'losers', not to mention the misogyny, racism, and class.

I would argue that there is even an issue between mental illness and personality disorders, and how they are often misdiagnosed and mishandled.

There was only so much of the manifesto I could handle, but I would guess that some of the issues could even be linked to his conception, which occurred while his mother was on antibiotics and birth control pills (or so he says). Not just that, but I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of his issues with women go back to his sister's birth.

Yeah, that's fair, and I agree. The general reaction just seems to be along the lines of superimposing one broad issue (usually related to religion, sex, gender, race, class) over an incident and not necessarily looking at all angles, depending on who is doing the commentating.

I may be way off base here, but I also think the memetic creation of things like #yesallwomen and any other drastic reaction ultimately trivializes the topic people are trying to discuss.

I'm not taking stabs at feminists, but the sudden popularity and interest in the topic has created massive misconceptions and misunderstandings surrounding it that has created adversarial and oppositional interactions. It completely devalues what the movement initially attempted to achieve, and what I assume "gender equality" focused feminists want.

People shouldn't be surprised when they perpetuate stigmas and reproduce prejudices because they focus on one side of an interaction, it almost always completely defeats the original purpose. Final disclaimer: I think this particular incident highlights gender issues at large, and focusing only on the man or woman's perspective is reductive and misses the point completely.

Edit: I'm not saying you or anyone in this topic is doing that, just my general opinion on any ideological topic.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Your statement is kind of inappropriate. I didn't quote the whole thing in case you rethink and decide to edit. Since you know. It wasn't thoughtful.

Specifically what's wrong with what I said?

 

[Tempest]

Yeah, that's fair, and I agree. The general reaction just seems to be along the lines of superimposing one broad issue (usually related to religion, sex, gender, race, class) over an incident and not necessarily looking at all angles, depending on who is doing the commentating.

Yes. That can be a problem of sorts, especially if multiple issues really do need to be looked at and dealt with.

I may be way off base here, but I also think the memetic creation of things like #yesallwomen and any other drastic reaction ultimately trivializes the topic people are trying to discuss.

You are way off base. I think perhaps you don't understand what #yesallwomen is about. If you haven't yet read through it, I strongly urge you to do so now.

I'm not taking stabs at feminists, but the sudden popularity and interest in the topic has created massive misconceptions and misunderstandings surrounding it that has created adversarial and oppositional interactions. It completely devalues what the movement initially attempted to achieve, and what I assume "gender equality" focused feminists want.

What misconceptions? That women are targeted daily by men? That in general, being a woman is about the same as negotiating a field of land mines? That being a woman means that every interaction with a man has to be weighed, because the wrong choice could mean unwelcome advances, verbal abuse, or physical assault?

Men were on the defensive after the shooting, saying everywhere, and every which way they could that not all men were like the shooter. #yesallwomen was started, not because women don't know that all men are not horrible, but that YES, ALL women have dealt with misogyny, that we deal with it Every. Single. Day.

As one woman so aptly put it...imagine a bowl of M&Ms. Now imagine that 10% of them are poisoned, and they're all mixed together. Go ahead. Eat those M&Ms. Only a small portion of them are dangerous.

That...that is why misogyny, and the abuse it can perpetuate, are important topics that must be brought up. Because a lot of the cases women shared are relevant to what the shooter did before he became a mass murderer.

People shouldn't be surprised when they perpetuate stigmas and reproduce prejudices because they focus on one side of an interaction, it almost always completely defeats the original purpose. Final disclaimer: I think this particular incident highlights gender issues at large, and focusing only on the man or woman's perspective is reductive and misses the point completely.

Ok. So what's the male perspective on misogyny?

Edit: I'm not saying you or anyone in this topic is doing that, just my general opinion on any ideological topic.

Thank you. And I want you to know that I appreciate your candor, although I think you are missing the boat. Please, go look at #yesallwomen , and while you're at it, please read this. It's long, but maybe it'll provide some more insight into 'gender equality' issues. http://www.genevievevalentine.com/2013/06/dealing-with-it/

Specifically what's wrong with what I said?

I don't think it's a great idea to say, "Hey, stop looking at white guys, and let's talk about this minority group". Just saying. I know you probably didn't mean for it to be offensive. It just came out that way. It happens. Just, be careful, right?

 

[DeadPresident]

You are way off base. I think perhaps you don't understand what #yesallwomen is about. If you haven't yet read through it, I strongly urge you to do so now.

Fair enough, point taken on this one. I've just seen similar initiatives where the reaction to them ultimately ends up as a ****-slinging contest and the issue at hand ends up taking a back seat.

What misconceptions? That women are targeted daily by men? That in general, being a woman is about the same as negotiating a field of land mines? That being a woman means that every interaction with a man has to be weighed, because the wrong choice could mean unwelcome advances, verbal abuse, or physical assault?

Men were on the defensive after the shooting, saying everywhere, and every which way they could that not all men were like the shooter. #yesallwomen was started, not because women don't know that all men are not horrible, but that YES, ALL women have dealt with misogyny, that we deal with it Every. Single. Day.

As one woman so aptly put it...imagine a bowl of M&Ms. Now imagine that 10% of them are poisoned, and they're all mixed together. Go ahead. Eat those M&Ms. Only a small portion of them are dangerous.

That...that is why misogyny, and the abuse it can perpetuate, are important topics that must be brought up. Because a lot of the cases women shared are relevant to what the shooter did before he became a mass murderer.

Sorry, I didn't mean misconceptions about misogyny. I meant misconceptions about broad ideological positions like feminism, or gay rights. Eventually it seems like certain exponents on both sides of a narrative forget the initial concerns.

Ok. So what's the male perspective on misogyny?

I have no idea, honestly. I can speak for myself and my social conditioning and engagement with women, but it's quite obvious I would be speaking for less people rather than more.

That being said, I have detected in their speech that a lot of guys from school or varsity do hold misogynistic views. If it had to be aggregated I'd assume there's an even thirds split between guys who are overtly misogynistic, guys you hold misogynistic beliefs but don't display them, and guys who aren't misogynistic.

Thank you. And I want you to know that I appreciate your candor, although I think you are missing the boat. Please, go look at #yesallwomen , and while you're at it, please read this. It's long, but maybe it'll provide some more insight into 'gender equality' issues. http://www.genevievevalentine.com/2013/06/dealing-with-it/

I read all of it, and perhaps I didn't give the situation as much credit because in all honesty women on the whole are treated with vastly more respect where I'm from, and I haven't seen an incident like any of those described by the writer.

Or I'm ridiculously naive/ignorant and I don't pay attention to the all subtleties in wider social interactions, which is possible.

 

[Tempest]

Fair enough, point taken on this one. I've just seen similar initiatives where the reaction to them ultimately ends up as a ****-slinging contest and the issue at hand ends up taking a back seat.


Sorry, I didn't mean misconceptions about misogyny. I meant misconceptions about broad ideological positions like feminism, or gay rights. Eventually it seems like certain exponents on both sides of a narrative forget the initial concerns.

Oh, I know. It can get that way. But like I said, I don't think that this is one of those times.

I have no idea, honestly. I can speak for myself and my social conditioning and engagement with women, but it's quite obvious I would be speaking for less people rather than more.

That being said, I have detected in their speech that a lot of guys from school or varsity do hold misogynistic views. If it had to be aggregated I'd assume there's an even thirds split between guys who are overtly misogynistic, guys you hold misogynistic beliefs but don't display them, and guys who aren't misogynistic.

Well, that's something. At least you have even a vague awareness of misogynistic ideas from other men.

I read all of it, and perhaps I didn't give the situation as much credit because in all honesty women on the whole are treated with vastly more respect where I'm from, and I haven't seen an incident like any of those described by the writer.

Or I'm ridiculously naive/ignorant and I don't pay attention to the all subtleties in wider social interactions, which is possible.

Please don't take offense, because I think you're being honest. But I think perhaps you just haven't noticed or recognized it for what it is. That's ok, because now you have a broader view. That's what this conversation is supposed to be about!

 

[The End]

I can think of a number of women that #YesAllWomen doesn't speak for.

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January James @JanuaryJames · May 30
#YesAllWomen Remember, there are more men willing to protect you than to harm you. All men aren't the bad guys.

Renée Kelly @kellysgal · Jun 2
If one more woman compares her mean tweets/messages to rape or war, I am going to ******* go off #YesAllWomen

Sara E. Mayhew @saramayhew · May 27
#YesAllWomen is a portrait of the ignorance, demonization, and ugly opportunism of the pop-feminist blogosphere. #GunControl #mentalhealth

Shannon Hoyle ‏@ohheyitsshanaj May 29
#YesAllWomen doesn't speak for me because I don't live in fear, I am not a victim, and one man does not represent all men.

 

[Anita18]

I can think of a number of women that #YesAllWomen doesn't speak for.

[YT]E-LCohouNDc[/YT]

[YT]kOfuVQC29s8[/YT]

January James @JanuaryJames · May 30
#YesAllWomen Remember, there are more men willing to protect you than to harm you. All men aren't the bad guys.

Renée Kelly @kellysgal · Jun 2
If one more woman compares her mean tweets/messages to rape or war, I am going to ******* go off #YesAllWomen

Sara E. Mayhew @saramayhew · May 27
#YesAllWomen is a portrait of the ignorance, demonization, and ugly opportunism of the pop-feminist blogosphere. #GunControl #mentalhealth

Shannon Hoyle ‏@ohheyitsshanaj May 29
#YesAllWomen doesn't speak for me because I don't live in fear, I am not a victim, and one man does not represent all men.

Then they are lucky.

Of course I know that not all men are misogynist pigs. The vast majority of men are perfectly respectful towards women (and everyone else), and there are quite a few who are self-professed feminists, who I'm glad to call my friends. I've been treated with nothing but respect here. I've never been sexually assaulted, I've never even been in a sexual situation where I've felt coerced and uncomfortable. I've been very, very lucky in my life.

And yet even I was a victim of a peeping tom. Some may interpret that as a totally isolated incident of a rare sicko, others may see it as a culmination of what society deems marginally acceptable. But I think everyone has to agree that I was objectified to a level where it was inappropriate.

To observe that you don't experience it the same as others is perfectly valid. But to wave away an entire movement just because you yourself don't experience it is just ignorant. It's almost like you don't want to acknowledge that it's happening, because it then means it might happen to you.

And I'm thinking the reference to mean tweets being equal to war might be a reference to Gwyneth Paltrow, and she's just unreasonably out-of-touch.

 

[Tempest]

Then they are lucky.

Of course I know that not all men are misogynist pigs. The vast majority of men are perfectly respectful towards women (and everyone else), and there are quite a few who are self-professed feminists, who I'm glad to call my friends. I've been treated with nothing but respect here. I've never been sexually assaulted, I've never even been in a sexual situation where I've felt coerced and uncomfortable. I've been very, very lucky in my life.

And yet even I was a victim of a peeping tom. Some may interpret that as a totally isolated incident of a rare sicko, others may see it as a culmination of what society deems marginally acceptable. But I think everyone has to agree that I was objectified to a level where it was inappropriate.

To observe that you don't experience it the same as others is perfectly valid. But to wave away an entire movement just because you yourself don't experience it is just ignorant. It's almost like you don't want to acknowledge that it's happening, because it then means it might happen to you.

And I'm thinking the reference to mean tweets being equal to war might be a reference to Gwyneth Paltrow, and she's just unreasonably out-of-touch.

All of this.

Besides, if we go on the theory that some dissenting posts invalidates #yesallwomen, doesn't that mean that this gem would invalidate #notallmen?

Image hidden due to possible triggers, and for encouragement of violence:

Spoiler

 

[The End]

Just one dissenting post from a woman invalidates #yesallwomen.

Just one post from a man in support of #notallmen, validates #notallmen.

That's logic.

Not all people share the same opinions, not all people share the same experiences, and I personally think the idea that our pop culture has created a culture of misogyny is absurd.

 

[DeadPresident]

Just one dissenting post from a woman invalidates #yesallwomen.

Just one post from a man in support of #notallmen, validates #notallmen.

That's logic.

I'd technically agree with this, but in this day and age a popular way to get your point across is including exaggeration.

I also think by responding to somebody's claim that they don't personally behave in a certain way with "Yes but we're all victims regardless of the agent" is not a constructive way to start a dialogue.

I understand people that say they've been victims, and I wouldn't disregard that, but when their point of departure in discussions I've had is "It might not be you but it'll be some man" I switch off. It seems a fine line between claiming "all women have been victims of sexual harassment" and "all men will be harassers eventually". A lot of times it seems like conversations become passive aggressive PSA's aimed at all the people of a certain demographic (In this case males) present in the discussion. It personally grates my cheese when I'm engaged in a way that assumes I'm likely to behave in one way or another because of some arbitrary inclusion based on gender/race/etc.

Not all people share the same opinions, not all people share the same experiences, and I personally think the idea that our pop culture has created a culture of misogyny is absurd.

It can be argued that it created it, but it is almost fact that it certainly maintains and perpetuates at least sexist and male-centric patterns.

 

[Tempest]

Just one dissenting post from a woman invalidates #yesallwomen.

Just one post from a man in support of #notallmen, validates #notallmen.

That's logic.

Not all people share the same opinions, not all people share the same experiences, and I personally think the idea that our pop culture has created a culture of misogyny is absurd.

Anyone who suggests that pop culture created a society of misogyny hasn't paid attention to history. Misogyny has been around since before Biblical times.

But, I do think pop culture encourages misogyny, even if it isn't consciously attempting to do so.

I'd technically agree with this, but in this day and age a popular way to get your point across is including exaggeration.

I also think by responding to somebody's claim that they don't personally behave in a certain way with "Yes but we're all victims regardless of the agent" is not a constructive way to start a dialogue.

I understand people that say they've been victims, and I wouldn't disregard that, but when their point of departure in discussions I've had is "It might not be you but it'll be some man" I switch off. It seems a fine line between claiming "all women have been victims of sexual harassment" and "all men will be harassers eventually". A lot of times it seems like conversations become passive aggressive PSA's aimed at all the people of a certain demographic (In this case males) present in the discussion. It personally grates my cheese when I'm engaged in a way that assumes I'm likely to behave in one way or another because of some arbitrary inclusion based on gender/race/etc.

A lot of anger you see from women when this topic is discussed is caused by your attitude. I understand that it makes you squirmy and uncomfortable, and no one wants to be lumped in with the bad guys. But see, it's not about you. It's about the victims of the bad guys, and even the good guys who don't know that they're being bad guys.

Two days ago I was at the gas station. I smiled at a guy as I was grabbing a drink. Next thing I know, he's right behind me, so close that as I stepped backwards I bumped into him. He grabbed my arm, and offered to take me out for some fun. I told him I had to go to work, and the expression on his face turned from friendly to anger, and he tightened the grip on my arm before he relaxed and let me go, with a less than friendly, "Later".

That little moment, and other moments like it, are why we need to talk about this, so that guys, even good guys, know where the limits are. So guys know that something that may have been completely innocent and genuine on their part, might actually be terrifying or hurtful for a woman.

 

[DeadPresident]

A lot of anger you see from women when this topic is discussed is caused by your attitude. I understand that it makes you squirmy and uncomfortable, and no one wants to be lumped in with the bad guys. But see, it's not about you. It's about the victims of the bad guys, and even the good guys who don't know that they're being bad guys.

Two days ago I was at the gas station. I smiled at a guy as I was grabbing a drink. Next thing I know, he's right behind me, so close that as I stepped backwards I bumped into him. He grabbed my arm, and offered to take me out for some fun. I told him I had to go to work, and the expression on his face turned from friendly to anger, and he tightened the grip on my arm before he relaxed and let me go, with a less than friendly, "Later".

That little moment, and other moments like it, are why we need to talk about this, so that guys, even good guys, know where the limits are. So guys know that something that may have been completely innocent and genuine on their part, might actually be terrifying or hurtful for a woman.

I'm not squirmy or uncomfortable, I've basically been doing language origins of gender norms for the last few years of my university career, I've been engaging the topic academically more than most people have socially.

And I agree completely it's about the victims, and not about the feelings of whichever demographic gets caught in the crossfire. What I don't have time for is being engaged by people who assume my politeness or lack of misogynistic behaviour is temporary or I somehow just haven't "displayed it yet". Those are the majority of the women I come into contact with when gender issues are being discussed to be honest. I understand that a lot of women are on the receiving end of sexist behavior, but I don't appreciate being treated like a dormant misogynistic time bomb.

Something I think initiatives like #yesallwomen can benefit from is by not aiming some of their vitriol at the people who actually aren't actively engaged in hurting them. I don't generally discuss these kinds of things because the prevailing discourse is passive aggressive statistics-dropping and "Yes, but..." rebuttals. The majority of discussions aren't civil and don't facilitate any progress. It might be prudent not to alienate the only men actually on the woman's side.

I appreciate your discussion and your points though, and I agree with all of your sentiments. I think my participation here has run its course though.