Sexism in the modern comic film?

[Bullseye1]

...Back pedaling like a pro. I should know better than to entertain this, you argue like a child.

Your logic states that "a guy stripping his shirt" is indicative of strength, which is precisely the problem. Instead of him doing things that indicate strength, seeing as strength is about action not appearance, they show his muscles. That would also lead any logical individual to infer that showing his muscles isn't solely about trying to insinuate he's strong, but rather that looking a certain way makes someone strong.

You also didn't specify what's under the shirt being stripped off. Even your language use betrays what this is really about. Stripped. Later.

Precisely.

You weaken your argument about sexism if you don't acknowledge it exists among both sexes. Both males and females are exploited in Hollywood. I guess men are just not as vocal about it.

 

[DA_Champion]

Both men and women are exploited in Hollywood as they are in the real world. People of all races and economic classes are exploited in both Hollywood and the real world. That doesn't negate the fact that there is a system of privilege in the world, and that on average women are more exploited than men.

Given that there are thousands of movies made every single year I am sure that one can find exceptions to any "rule" that anybody states... but we should be mature enough to realise that finding and identifying exceptions are not a valid form of counter-argumentation. Returning to the case of Hollywood, there are women who are well-represented, there are minorities who are well-represented, there are white men who are poorly-represented, but we should not lose track of the fact that the average level of representation really does matter. A young girl watching movies will see her potential role models be objects of interests rather than individuals with agency more often than not, and that will have a cumulative impact.

There is also the separate issue that Hollywood is missing out on storytelling opportunities by not writing better female characters. It's not just worth doing because it will have a better impact on the world, it's worth doing because it can lead to more interesting stories. There are fewer iterations of female characters and thus there is more room for originality. Further, since women are perceived as different, female characters will probably be different too. Buffy Summers and Katniss Everdeen are both original, entertaining, insightful... and could not have possibly be written as male characters. How many other similarly great stories with female protagonists are lying in the literary ether, unwritten, undirected, unproduced? We are all poorer for it.

 

[Lord]

Precisely.

You weaken your argument about sexism if you don't acknowledge it exists among both sexes. Both males and females are exploited in Hollywood. I guess men are just not as vocal about it.

But that's the problem, man can't accept criticism about the way women are treated without wanting to make themselves look as victims too, for every exploitation of a male character, there are 10 more of a female one.

Once again, look at the Bechdel test, it's not even evaluating if a female character has an equal role or scene, but rather if there's a minimal female interaction that doesn't center around men, and even most films fail that. Keep in mind that this isn't to evaluate a lone film and if that one is sexist or not, but to evaluate the whole industry.

It doesn't mean that we should stop gettting certain films we're already having, just that the treatmen of women needs to be improved as a whole with more productions that treat them on a positive light, instead of allways having them as the male's object of interest, motivation, or having women treated as "aliens" when you make a female centered action movie.

We don't need to see less "Thor" or "Guardians of the Galaxy", we need to see more "Bridesmaids" and "The Hunger Games".

 

[DeadPresident]

Precisely.

You weaken your argument about sexism if you don't acknowledge it exists among both sexes. Both males and females are exploited in Hollywood. I guess men are just not as vocal about it.

That's a whole other can of worms, as soon as a man would dare complain about having unfair stipulations in terms of masculinity society would start calling him a p**** b**** f***** for not having the balls to do what's expected of him. Women have at least come to the point where a lot of the gender related stereotypes can constructively be discussed and deconstructed to the point where their effectiveness may be reduced.

Masculinity being perceived as the "norm" for so long means it's structures and mechanisms are that much more ingrained in everyone's collective conscience. If anything I'd say socioculturally men get a much harsher time than women do at the moment.

But that's the problem, man can't accept criticism about the way women are treated without wanting to make themselves look as victims too, for every exploitation of a male character, there are 10 more of a female one.

Once again, look at the Bechdel test, it's not even evaluating if a female character has an equal role or scene, but rather if there's a minimal female interaction that doesn't center around men, and even most films fail that. Keep in mind that this isn't to evaluate a lone film and if that one is sexist or not, but to evaluate the whole industry.

It doesn't mean that we should stop gettting certain films we're already having, just that the treatmen of women needs to be improved as a whole with more productions that treat them on a positive light, instead of allways having them as the male's object of interest, motivation, or having women treated as "aliens" when you make a female centered action movie.

We don't need to see less "Thor" or "Guardians of the Galaxy", we need to see more "Bridesmaids" and "The Hunger Games".

I understand where you're trying to go, but your points are all over the place. You're assuming your scope of experience accounts for all examples everywhere, which is blatantly fallacious. I'll repeat, this isn't about "Who gets exploited more". The entire notion of gender as a social construct needs to be revamped. Men and Women are both being unfairly compared and marked against an archaic set of ideals that the media reproduces.

Because that same media stands to make a lot of money by telling guys their ****s are too small, they don't make enough money and their muscles aren't big enough to deal with the burglar that's threatening to *****slap them at any moment. The same way women are told their **** are too small and if they don't get more independence no man will respect them and they won't be able to hold on to the men they can get because there's always some curvy harlot hitting on their boyfriends.

Both genders are being exposed to highly detrimental assumptions in the media at large, and also through movies. Movies aren't even such a massive problem because they're adaptations of source material, you need to go to the source to fix the problem, and the source isn't CBM's.

No offense, but personally I think your views are highly influenced by the fact that women's issues are extremely prominent in the media, and an alarmist and sensationalized quality has been added to them. For whoever is undoubtedly going to call me a chauvinist sexist woman-hater, I don't mean that those issues are not important, merely that they're getting the most press.

 

[Human Torch]

But that's the problem, man can't accept criticism about the way women are treated without wanting to make themselves look as victims too, for every exploitation of a male character, there are 10 more of a female one.

Once again, look at the Bechdel test, it's not even evaluating if a female character has an equal role or scene, but rather if there's a minimal female interaction that doesn't center around men, and even most films fail that. Keep in mind that this isn't to evaluate a lone film and if that one is sexist or not, but to evaluate the whole industry.

It doesn't mean that we should stop gettting certain films we're already having, just that the treatmen of women needs to be improved as a whole with more productions that treat them on a positive light, instead of allways having them as the male's object of interest, motivation, or having women treated as "aliens" when you make a female centered action movie.

We don't need to see less "Thor" or "Guardians of the Galaxy", we need to see more "Bridesmaids" and "The Hunger Games".

That's certainly the reverse in CB genre and many of you are blind to not admit it.

And we've already established that the "Bechdel test" is a joke.You don't use a joke as a litmus test for the worth of art.

 

[Human Torch]

This whole notion that both actors and actresses are "exploited" is pretty poor to begin with.They're pros.They spend more money on their brand of TP than I spend on dinner.To make the big bucks they work out to look like He-Men or Dream Girls,so that shmucks like you and me can go have some escapist entertainment for a couple hours.It's not like they're being "objectified" as if they're being "humiliated for slave wages".

 

[jaymes_e06]

I think eating disorders from body dysmorphia (how we're assuming it manifests in both sexes) is more difficult to diagnose in men because the masculine ideal requires you to eat. The female ideal requires you to just starve, and maybe do cardio if you're so inclined. But the goal is to be as skinny as possible.

But if you want to gain muscle, you're going to have to eat. The danger, I think, is going to the gym too much and harming your body through dangerous supplements. For someone pursuing a muscular ideal, it does manifest differently. Female eating disorders might be thought of as more dangerous, because you die more easily from starvation than by consuming supplements.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a population of men, especially young men, who pride themselves on being super-skinny too. I've been seeing more and more impossibly-thin men around. Many of them are gay and are pursuing the "twink" ideal, I guess...

But I really don't think they're looking to comic book superheroes as their ideal, anyway.

I agree though it can be even deeper than that. It's not just for eating disorders but just life in general. If men don't meet the idea of masculinity being that of a provider, being tall, handsome, strong and sexually active you are branded "strange" especially in certain subcultural views (African Americans). Women in general will explain their feeling while in general men have an inward degradation that can lead to their own self destruction.

I have rarely heard of a men/boys having trouble getting thin. I have heard the opposite though that they have a hard time gaining weight/muscle so this whole "Twink" idea while funny seems unlikely.

And she isn't showing much skin at all.

But not everyone is blessed with Eva Green's eyes. She's sexing us enough with them, she doesn't need any more.

Yes she is gorgeous without being ostentatious. Go figure.

 

[PalmerTheThing]

I don't want to be a debbie downer and I am really excited for BVS

BUT...

I feel like Wonder Woman will be dissapointing, and I really don't want her to be. Gal is a so-so actor so that worries me there.

I just don't want a Catwoman (2004), Jessica Alba in FF1&2, Electra, and even Black Widow to some degree.

They are all just "powerful" girls who look great and can kick ass.

I really want Wonder-Woman to be scary while fighting, charming, and very much support her self. She will obviously have a love interest, but I want her to be a great character, not something great to look at while Batfleck bangs her behind the scenes and B&S are the main focus.

 

[Lord]

That's certainly the reverse in CB genre and many of you are blind to not admit it.

And we've already established that the "Bechdel test" is a joke.You don't use a joke as a litmus test for the worth of art.

Ahahahah, way to dismiss a different view completelly.

So, something that analyses female's roles in cinema and how limited it is is a joke? And you want me to take your opinion seriously?

I agree though it can be even deeper than that. It's not just for eating disorders but just life in general. If men don't meet the idea of masculinity being that of a provider, being tall, handsome, strong and sexually active you are branded "strange" especially in certain subcultural views (African Americans). Women in general will explain their feeling while in general men have an inward degradation that can lead to their own self destruction.

No, not really. In films, the writers usually write themselves, making the stories Basically male fantasies, that's why we are presented with Alpha males and what men want to be like, women However, are usually part of that fantasy, so they rotate around the man, most of the time they're not part of female fantasy, but part of the male one, that's why they're usually so subversiant in the story.

 

[DA_Champion]

55% is more than I expected actually.

I'd like to see the correlation between Rotten Tomatoes score and fraction of lines that go to female characters. Obviously that'd be hard to measure since you need all the scripts to compute it, so we won't see it for a while.

 

[Lord]

Yeah, though 45% of movies not even having a scene with two female characters having a conversation that is about men isn't such a great thing to write home about, and sexualising 1 out of 3 of those women is a bit depressing.

I know why most of women are like this and end up talking about a man, it's just because they're secondary characters talking about the main one most of the time, and the main character happens to be a man, with it being a man in most cases. Not every film needs to pass the test, it's just a way to evaluate the industry as a whole. you can still have films that don't pass the test, but there should also be the oposite in order to even the scale.

 

[DA_Champion]

Now that the Bedchel test is famous I expect it to become less useful all the time. Since directors now know about the bedchel test it's easy to add a scene here or there to make a movie pass.

For example, you know how man of steel passes the bedchel test? Faora tells Lois to put on a mask because the Kryptonian atmosphere is different, when Lois is brought on the Kryptonian ship near the movie's midpoint. That's all. It's entirely possible that Goyer put that in there to satisfy a boundary condition on the script, to satisfy the bedchel test.

Thus, more sophisticated modes of analysis will be needed over time, which is fine with me, though it will provide produce to the trolls.

 

[jaymes_e06]

No, not really. In films, the writers usually write themselves, making the stories Basically male fantasies, that's why we are presented with Alpha males and what men want to be like, women However, are usually part of that fantasy, so they rotate around the man, most of the time they're not part of female fantasy, but part of the male one, that's why they're usually so subversiant in the story.

Strange you get mad at someone else for dismissing your view then you proceed to do the exact same to mine... hmm.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying so I'll break it down for you. I never said anything to negate your statement above. I agree with it but it doesn't negate my thoughts either.

How do you explain how men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women? This can't be a happy decision for them can it? Men/boys feel pressure to be an ideal too that was all I was trying to say.

That being said it almost vastly pales in comparison to what women go through.

did that clear up my stance at all?

 

[Lord]

Sorry, i didn't mean to disaprove your whole post and opinion, the difference there was that the other poster's answer to the Bechdel test as being just a joke.

I'm not saying we men don't get some of these problems too, hell, we get different types of problems, but i see way too many time, people using that as an excuse every time somebody starts talking about the negative use of the image of women in media.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Sorry, i didn't mean to disaprove your whole post and opinion, the difference there was that the other poster's answer to the Bechdel test as being just a joke.

I'm not saying we men don't get some of these problems too, hell, we get different types of problems, but i see way too many time, people using that as an excuse every time somebody starts talking about the negative use of the image of women in media.

No I agree with that completely I think people like to do go over board, however, I don't like when people make it seem like men going through any strife should be brushed under the rug either. As a feminist I believe that we need to examine both issues but see that one is much more serious than the other and needs our immediate attention at the moment.

 

[Doppelganger]

Ahahahah, way to dismiss a different view completelly.

So, something that analyses female's roles in cinema and how limited it is is a joke? And you want me to take your opinion seriously?




No, not really. In films, the writers usually write themselves, making the stories Basically male fantasies, that's why we are presented with Alpha males and what men want to be like, women However, are usually part of that fantasy, so they rotate around the man, most of the time they're not part of female fantasy, but part of the male one, that's why they're usually so subversiant in the story.

That info graphic is making me cringe.

Why compare 2012 and 2009? Seems kinda random. Gimme the previous year or show more years so you can see the trend. Because otherwise I will think that 2009 was deliberatly chosen to manipulate the people that are looking at the graphic.

So there is a ratio. Nice! Now compare it to the ratio in the audience and we can actually say if there should be more females or if there are just more male moviegoers. (and if that is the case, then the question becomes: What is the reason that women stay away? Is it because there are more movies for men?)

So how much manservice was there compared to fanservice? (I don't expect it to be equal but how big is the difference?)

And if you have the amount of female writers, directors and producers why not compare how their movies do in the test? Compare it with the male made films and the average!

I just hate graphics like that. I immediately want more context. Just giving me numbers is utterly pointless because you don't actually get informations. The differences are what matters, trends matter and context matters.
Yeah you can make a guess besed on the numbers and your experience but you shouldn't have to make a guess. You should get facts and informations!
And I know that you cannot cram everything in one graphic but this just doesn't do for my inner sociologist

 

[Human Torch]

Ahahahah, way to dismiss a different view completelly.

If it's only fit for dismissal,what is there to do?

So, something that analyses female's roles in cinema and how limited it is is a joke? And you want me to take your opinion seriously?

The Bechdel test is literally a joke.A comic strip joke,that (for whatever reason) got taken as a litmus test for films,in which several of the best films ever fail and several others "barely" pass.The purpose of the "joke" (the way the best comic strip jokes work) was to poke gentle fun at a subject and generate some thought over it.

But,I'm of the opinion that film is art.And should not be subject to "tests" or having to have X number of women/minorities in speaking roles.The film maker should be able to tell whatever story they want,however they want.

No, not really. In films, the writers usually write themselves, making the stories Basically male fantasies, that's why we are presented with Alpha males and what men want to be like, women However, are usually part of that fantasy, so they rotate around the man, most of the time they're not part of female fantasy, but part of the male one, that's why they're usually so subversiant in the story.

Woman have the same opportunity in reverse.Where do you think all those Lifetime movies come from? t:

 

[dark_b]

i see serious and smart.

 

[DrCosmic]

Has anyone addressed that sexuality is near-constantly addressed with female characters, whereas with male characters giving fanservice to women it's usually just one brief scene? There are unsexy ways to be naked, scantily clad or wear a skintight outfit. Female heroes in big budget stuff never seem to take that option, though men seem to more often than not.

Or is this argument still in the "well, men take their shirt off too, so everything's equal!" stage?

 

[Teelie]

Sexism is rampant in the movies and while I don't want to retread along any lines already drawn I probably will.

What I want to point out it's not always depicted the same. Sexism against women is obvious and easy to see (****, ass, emotionally and physically weak) but it also works against men in different ways (strong, muscularly fit, emotionally distant or full of aggressive feelings). It isn't appropriate to compare sexism equally to men and women when the forms aren't the same. Both are held up to unreasonable, unrealistic standards. One just happens to be more blatant.

And just to gloss over that briefly with an example:

Spoiler

It's hardly fair. No one is immune to objectification or definitions of acceptablity.

Men might not be seen as sex objects in the physical sense the same as women often are but there are still symptoms of it in their depiction as sex objects or just objects to idealize.

I'm not trying to derail the talk or discussion of women being depicted but I'd like to think that men can be seen as also reduced to a stereotype.

How many men are seen as sensitive or emotional that are not gay? How many men can cry in a movie that isn't seen as emasculating? Only in very specific settings and conditions is it okay for a man to be anything less than stoic, emotionless or almost automaton. The exception is if it's a comedic, or moronic movie. Either you're played serious or for laughs. To cry is only reserved for very special, very rare occasions. To have any feelings that aren't seen as desirable makes you weak.

A man who pines for a woman is often a loser, desperate or deranged and stalkerish. Only if he desires a woman and he has the right attitude is it okay to want her. She should want him. That's the standard men are expected to express.

This is true in most genres. Just as women are often shown as either incapable of being a strong individual, men are often seen as incapable of being anything else. A man cannot rely on another man unless it's in a war or a similar setting.

Equality should not be about focusing solely on one gender. It shouldn't be used as an excuse or a reason to dismiss or downplay another character, regardless of gender or anything else. Too often though I do see any attempt to say that men are also depicted poorly as a way to divert from the larger problem that sexism isn't for women alone.

So please don't see this as trying to avert the attention to women, just a request to see that everyone, male, female and androgenous (probably the most marginalized of all) are reduced to simplistic, stereotypical tropes frequently.

I like strong, independent, weak, needy, fragile, unbreakable, complicated characters. Doesn't matter the gender, doesn't matter the circumstance, if someone is properly shown as a real human being I don't really care what's between the legs or on the chest.

 

[DrCosmic]

Very well said.

While the idealization and hypermasculinity of male characters can indeed be problematic, and flows from and to the same place as the oversexualization of female characters, women are both idealized and objectified. It's deeper with fewer exceptions.

 

[Human Torch]

i see serious and smart.

Finally,a completely sexless poster that dark b can approve of!

 

[dark_b]

 

[Lord]

Anyone heard of the Red Pill movement on Reddit? It's supposed to defend the idea that men are being controled by women, i checked their forum and some of the statements in there are kinda scary if you are a woman, can't believe they have so many followers in there.

 

[DA_Champion]

Can you imagine how enraged certain forum posters would be if this showed up in a Michael Bay film?