Should Batman kill again?

[baerrtt]

The "real" Batman would be the commonly mainstream current incarnation of Batman.

If Batman were a killer now then he would be the "Real" Batman, but he's not a killer now because that's not who this character is. Having this character kill would be out of character and it would change the nature of his identity. He would turn into the "Lawful Evil" Batman of DC Comics 27-34 (ish) or the more Brutal Frank Miller or Tim Burton Batman.

You have to realize that many times you cannot just change the nature of an accepted character for the purpose of "it would be neat" that cheapens the development that we've had with Batman.

If Batman killed then he would simply become a killer and as Green Arrow says, "We're heroes. That's not who we are."

And yet Oliver Queen started killing bad guys in Mike Grell's series in the late 80s/early 90s (which is still part of his canon).

If Grant Morrison's statement of adding ALL of Batman's comic adventures to the modern day canon is correct (and his stories for BATMAN back that up) then retroactively he has killed.

Prior to that Batman does kill an alien in COSMIC ODYSSEY (1988) with a laser gun and in the BATMAN/SUPERMAN story Enemies Among Us is prepared to use a nuclear weapon in order to stop an alien invasion. I think if they put the character in certain situations (like those) killing IS permissable.

 

[CrimsonMist]

And yet Oliver Queen started killing bad guys in Mike Grell's series in the late 80s/early 90s (which is still part of his canon).

If Grant Morrison's statement of adding ALL of Batman's comic adventures to the modern day canon is correct (and his stories for BATMAN back that up) then retroactively he has killed.

Prior to that Batman does kill an alien in COSMIC ODYSSEY (1988) with a laser gun and in the BATMAN/SUPERMAN story Enemies Among Us is prepared to use a nuclear weapon in order to stop an alien invasion. I think if they put the character in certain situations (like those) killing IS permissable.

In Morrison's run on BATMAN, he has Batman drive Joe Chill to suicide.

 

[Quinzel]

I don't think b-man should be a killer again.

What makes him stand out is that he HAS to be able to control himself, other heros that don't care just kind of blend in together. They show no self control.

Besides, Mistah J has had a few run in's with batsy, and i'm not so sure i want him hurt. haha.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Think about it: cops are allowed to use lethal force. How is Batman supposed to strike fear into Gotham's underworld if he wont even go as far as the cops?

Amazing quote. After about three weeks on the job, criminals would realize that Batman hadn't killed anybody and they'd stop being so afraid.

BUT

Comics aren't real life. Batman lives by rules that may or not make sense... but he still lives by them.

 

[knifeedgedave]

Batman may not kill, but he humiliates. And hurts egos.

 

[Majic Walrus]

And yet Oliver Queen started killing bad guys in Mike Grell's series in the late 80s/early 90s (which is still part of his canon).

If Grant Morrison's statement of adding ALL of Batman's comic adventures to the modern day canon is correct (and his stories for BATMAN back that up) then retroactively he has killed.

Prior to that Batman does kill an alien in COSMIC ODYSSEY (1988) with a laser gun and in the BATMAN/SUPERMAN story Enemies Among Us is prepared to use a nuclear weapon in order to stop an alien invasion. I think if they put the character in certain situations (like those) killing IS permissable.

This quote was from K. Smith's run on Green Arrow: Quiver. Which has the resurrected Oliver "from a better time" according to Hal Jordan. A time with no killings no doubt.

In any case I think that some of you wild literally one-time situations aren't really a strong case for changing the character of Batman altogether. Everyone has a different take on Batman and the lengths that he is willing to go however it's generally understood that Batman doesn't kill and I think it's best that way.

If Batman kills then he looses something powerful that he has which is strength of fortitude and character. Even F. Miller's All Star Batman seems to be opposed to out and out killing.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Batman may not kill, but he humiliates. And hurts egos.

And arms, legs, ribs, skulls, etc.

 

[Oddzball]

We went through this before, with Brne's Superman runn and the assassination of the three Phantom Zone villains from the Time Trapper's pocket universe.

Consensus was it was a bad idea.

Nothing about Batman differs significantly from Superman in this regard.

 

[Rasputin911]

We went through this before, with Brne's Superman runn and the assassination of the three Phantom Zone villains from the Time Trapper's pocket universe.

Consensus was it was a bad idea.

Nothing about Batman differs significantly from Superman in this regard.

except that he is a much darker persona whose chief motivation (whether he likes to admit it or not) is vengeance.

 

[Rasputin911]

Amazing quote. After about three weeks on the job, criminals would realize that Batman hadn't killed anybody and they'd stop being so afraid.

BUT

Comics aren't real life. Batman lives by rules that may or not make sense... but he still lives by them.

perhaps they could start showing Batman taking "credit" for hits in the underworld...hits he didn't really commit....to spread fear

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Well really, why would Batman wish the very thing that caused so much pain in his lives on other people? He knows the firsthand pains of losing loved ones, three times over. People who have submitted to the anguish that badly probably would not wish the same suffering he's dealt with on those close to the ones he's battling.

 

[The Chris]

Well really, why would Batman wish the very thing that caused so much pain in his lives on other people? He knows the firsthand pains of losing loved ones, three times over. People who have submitted to the anguish that badly probably would not wish the same suffering he's dealt with on those close to the ones he's battling.

That's the one big reason why I prefer a Batman that won't kill.

 

[Rasputin911]

Well really, why would Batman wish the very thing that caused so much pain in his lives on other people? He knows the firsthand pains of losing loved ones, three times over. People who have submitted to the anguish that badly probably would not wish the same suffering he's dealt with on those close to the ones he's battling.

than why's he beating up crooks in the first place, if he's such an empathetic guy who would never inflict pain?

i don't really get your reasoning. Batman has chosen a life of violence

 

[The Chris]

than why's he beating up crooks in the first place, if he's such an empathetic guy who would never inflict pain?

i don't really get your reasoning. Batman has chosen a life of violence

Big difference between inflicting the pain that Batman inflicts, and then straight up murdering people.

 

[Rasputin911]

alright. Well i see i've gotten some support so farbut most people are oppossed to the proposition. All of ur reasonings/justifications have been interesting. I still maintain that having him return to killing at some point in the future (it wouldn't make sense right now) would be worth a shot, but i don't work at DC (yet ).

But can we all at least agree that he should no longer be shown saving the Joker from committing suicide, or going way way out of his way to save criminals, or frickin' testifying for the Joker at trial (yes, he did that once in the comics because the Joker was going to be executed for a crime he didn't committ...goddamn ridiculous) ?

These things just make him seem self-righteous and stupid

 

[Majic Walrus]

alright. Well i see i've gotten some support so farbut most people are oppossed to the proposition. All of ur reasonings/justifications have been interesting. I still maintain that having him return to killing at some point in the future (it wouldn't make sense right now) would be worth a shot, but i don't work at DC (yet ).

But can we all at least agree that he should no longer be shown saving the Joker from committing suicide, or going way way out of his way to save criminals, or frickin' testifying for the Joker at trial (yes, he did that once in the comics because the Joker was going to be executed for a crime he didn't committ...goddamn ridiculous) ?

These things just make him seem self-righteous and stupid

Yeah... Pfft, justice. Who needs that!?

 

[Finlandman]

It's important that Batman follows the path of justice, even though it may be in conflict of his personal feelings. Defending Joker defines the Batman for me. He is a superhero.

 

[Superman2008]

perhaps they could start showing Batman taking "credit" for hits in the underworld...hits he didn't really commit....to spread fear

This has been my general assessment of the Batman's methods as of late. In fact, the Dark Knight movie stipulated this.
And I quote, Salvatori Maroni: "No one's gonna tell you anything. They're wise to your act. You got rules. The Joker, he's got no rules. No one's gonna cross him for you."

Which brings us to current continuity. The Batman has been protecting Gotham for many years now, and I'm sure a lot of criminals, especially the organized crime, or Batman's many nemesis' have figured out the Batman doesn't kill. The Batman may hurt you physically, but that may not be enough anymore to keep the general populous of criminals in fear of him.

Now if the Batman got as ruthless as he was portrayed in Frank Miller's the Dark Knight Returns, maybe he can instill fear back into criminals' hearts. Like the scene where the Batman was holding one thug and another one was creeping behind him. The Batman heard him, and calculated the multiple ways of disarming him. 2 ways of disarming that thug would've rendered him unarmed with minimal damage. Another 2 ways of disarming the thug would've rendered him dead. The other way of disarming that thug, hurts.

And in kicking the thug at the right place, he was able to incapacitate him as well as keep him from walking ever again. Maybe instead of killing, the Batman needs to get a little more violent in his means of instilling fear into the hearts of those specifically targeted by the Batman. Like how the Batman defeated the Mutant Gang leader in a mud pit, within the center of the Junk Yard from the pages of The Dark Knight Returns.

 

[ChAnOoD]

Like how the Batman defeated the Mutant Gang leader in a mud pit, within the center of the Junk Yard from the pages of The Dark Knight Returns.

That scene was a good example of the "hurts egos" by knifeedgedave.

Batman doesn´t want to kill the baddies. He remembers his parent´s death over and over and over and he thinks nobody deserves death. But in some situations he´d be able to kill, due to a risk scene; I´m saying that thing because I recall other scene from TDKR: A mutant dude have a baby with him and he will kill the little creature if Bats doesn´t dissapear. Bats uses a machine gun from another mutant and (we) asume the mutant with the baby is dead. In DK2, he uses a special cape to cut some guys from the Lex Luthor department and I don´t believe they´re still alive...

Maybe those examples doesn´t count because those two books by Miller were like "elseworlds"...

 

[The Guard]

Self righteous and stupid? Maybe, but that's kind of the point.

Not killing is both one of Batman's greatest character strengths, and at once his greatest flaw. His, at times almost baffling obsession with protecting human life, all human life, is one of the best elements of the character.

 

[Rasputin911]

Self righteous and stupid? Maybe, but that's kind of the point.

Not killing is both one of Batman's greatest character strengths, and at once his greatest flaw. His, at times almost baffling obsession with protecting human life, all human life, is one of the best elements of the character.

there's a difference between not killing, and actually jumping to save the joker when the joker willingly jumps off a building. The former i can understand, but the latter makes me want to stop rooting for Batman

 

[Rasputin911]

This has been my general assessment of the Batman's methods as of late. In fact, the Dark Knight movie stipulated this.
And I quote, Salvatori Maroni: "No one's gonna tell you anything. They're wise to your act. You got rules. The Joker, he's got no rules. No one's gonna cross him for you."

Which brings us to current continuity. The Batman has been protecting Gotham for many years now, and I'm sure a lot of criminals, especially the organized crime, or Batman's many nemesis' have figured out the Batman doesn't kill. The Batman may hurt you physically, but that may not be enough anymore to keep the general populous of criminals in fear of him.

Now if the Batman got as ruthless as he was portrayed in Frank Miller's the Dark Knight Returns, maybe he can instill fear back into criminals' hearts. Like the scene where the Batman was holding one thug and another one was creeping behind him. The Batman heard him, and calculated the multiple ways of disarming him. 2 ways of disarming that thug would've rendered him unarmed with minimal damage. Another 2 ways of disarming the thug would've rendered him dead. The other way of disarming that thug, hurts.

And in kicking the thug at the right place, he was able to incapacitate him as well as keep him from walking ever again. Maybe instead of killing, the Batman needs to get a little more violent in his means of instilling fear into the hearts of those specifically targeted by the Batman. Like how the Batman defeated the Mutant Gang leader in a mud pit, within the center of the Junk Yard from the pages of The Dark Knight Returns.

good points all. I think Batman would have to be at least as violent as he was in DKR to be effective against Gotham's criminals.

 

[kguillou]

The Joker's time is way past due. I believe that anybody no matter how bad they are deserve 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances to redeem themselves, but Joker is one of those people who's very existence is a threat to society. Batman should man up and put him out of his misery once and for all. Batman uses fear to defeat his enemies, but i think we can all agree that the joker will never be intimidated by Batman and will never change.

 

[Sonic1002]

I still think in "Dark Knight", he broke his one rule with Two-Face.
He spared the mass-murdering, unhinged, psychopathic clown... But he kills the dude who had one last hit to do before being done. GAH!

Also, I'm pretty sure every thug member he's punched has gotten a FACE FULL of GAUNTLET SPIKES. Cuz there are some scenes where he backhanding, and there's NO way to dodge that. Congrats, Batman knows how you got THOSE scars.

 

[Franklin Richards]

If Batman kills the Joker. The Joker wins.



The Batman doesn't kill.... period.