Siege

[kguillou]

You know i think that part of the problem was that because of OMD, Spiderman and Osborn's relationship is now a bit hazy. I mean now that Osborn doesn't know that Peter is Spiderman, their relationship isn't as antagonistic as it was once was. This means Osborn doesnt remember the clone saga, or faking Aunt May's death, or kidnapping Peter for 2 weeks and torturing him. Alot of the horrible things he did to Peter has been "erased" and so I suppose that its a lot less personal between them now. Well its personal for Peter still,assuming he still remembers everything, but for Osborn alot less so. Osborn used to be obsessed with ruining Peter's life, but now Osborn simply just hates Spider-man. Osborn still remembers killing Gwen stacy but he has no idea of the connection between her and Spiderman. Ugh...makes my head hurt.

 

[Anubis]

I was thinking about the whole "Osborn rising above Spider-Man" idea...Is Lex Luthor above Superman after becoming the President? Maybe to a degree; he is one of the prominent villains in the DCU, but still a SUPERMAN villain. Superman was a big influence in the downfall of Luthor, in a way that Spider-Man wasn't with Osborn. There was the "The List" one-shot, then we get a panel of Volstagg knocking Osborn out instead of Spider-Man webbing him up, or taking him one on one. Its just one of the many flaws of SIEGE really.

The big difference her is that Superman IS in fact the lynch pin of the DCU and Lex's entire point of becoming Pres was to take down Supes. Spidey on the other hand is just one more dork in pajamas running around the MU, and Osborne didn't really give a s**t about him.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ares isn't the flagship character of the Marvel universe, so people don't expect everything to be about him or his kid (even though they're awesome) the way they do Spider-Man. And in Siege: Secret Warriors, Phobos decided to channel his aggression over his father's death toward the President of the USA instead of, y'know, literally anyone who was actually involved in it. He killed a bunch of Secret Service agents and then babbled about mortals knowing their place and stuff.

It was awesome though. The way the secret service agents were like

"Listen kid, if you don't give up we'll be forced to use lethal force" or whatever.

Phobos was like "O RLY?"

And then the way he signed off the letter to the Prez was bad ass.

God of Fear
Son of War

And seeing as Fury wouldn't allow him onto the Asgard battlefield, it makes sense he would take out his rage somewhere else. And if you think about it, it was indirectly the government/Presidents fault... they were the ones who put Osborne in charge.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, Obama could have gotten rid of Osborn at anytime and he gave final approval of Osborn's appointment.

 

[Manic]

I thought Osborn was appointed in an unremovable position by the previous president.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I remember a Thunderbolts issue shortly after Obama got elected and Dark Reign began where Obama was all, "I'm gonna keep an eye on you, Osborn." And then nothing came of it until Osborn went directly against Obama's orders and effectively created an international incident given that Asgard was deemed sovereign foreign territory.

 

[Drz]

We need an "what if Sarah Palin became the president during Dark Reign" comic.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The country would be bankrupt and Russia would be invading. "Ve actually can be seeink you from our houses now, b****es!"

 

[Drz]

Man you just love Tina Fey, don't ya?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Why, yes, I do. Although I've only seen her first Sarah Palin skit, so I don't know what you're referring to specifically.

 

[Drz]

Palin said she can see Russia from her country. Tina's spoof said House.

 

[Anubis]

Either way, Palin's still ******ed.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Doesn't she eat Seal brains or something?

 

[Anubis]

Close, baby seal hearts.

 

[Manic]

Keeps her fertile.

 

[Saint]

You know i think that part of the problem was that because of OMD, Spiderman and Osborn's relationship is now a bit hazy. I mean now that Osborn doesn't know that Peter is Spiderman, their relationship isn't as antagonistic as it was once was. This means Osborn doesnt remember the clone saga, or faking Aunt May's death, or kidnapping Peter for 2 weeks and torturing him. Alot of the horrible things he did to Peter has been "erased" and so I suppose that its a lot less personal between them now.

Good point. Another reason that OMD was trash. I swear to God, that crap is as bad as the Clone Saga.

and Osborne didn't really give a s**t about him.

But he should--Norman's always been obsessed with Spider-Man above all other considerations.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And he found himself in a position where he was so vastly far beyond Spider-Man that he had to focus on other things. He was still clearly obsessed with Spider-Man, as shown in Dark Reign: The List and "American Son." But between Loki manipulating him toward other areas and the sheer weight of his responsibilities as the head of the US' superhumans, he couldn't prioritize that obsession as much. He put his other obsession--the one for more and more power--first.

 

[Brainiac 8]

The big difference her is that Superman IS in fact the lynch pin of the DCU and Lex's entire point of becoming Pres was to take down Supes. Spidey on the other hand is just one more dork in pajamas running around the MU, and Osborne didn't really give a s**t about him.

This is exactly the difference between Luthor and Osborne.

Luthor took the presidency for two reasons: Power, and it gave him direct control of many factors where he can control forces to use against Superman, such as other heroes and labs like Cadmus.

Luthor is also leagues ahead of Osborne in intelligence and sanity. He was much more dangerous in the position than Osborne was.

I hated that Marvel attempted to make Osborne as important to the Marel Universe as Luthor is to DC's.

 

[herakles]

People are just upset that Spider-Man didn't get to knock Osborn out and quip about it for 3 pages in Siege.

ISN'T Siege about Asgard and Thor!??? All the Spidey fans can take a chill pill!

At least they didn't have to deal their favorite character dying and staying out of the limelight for 3 f'ing years!

 

[Manic]

Nightcrawler, NOOOOOO!!!


No, wait. Were you talking about Thor?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nightcrawler's been dead for like 3 minutes, chum.

 

[Havok83]

Norman hasnt been primarily a Spidey villian ever since this started. The Marvel Universe saga has NOT been about Spiderman. This stuff goes back beyond Siege, Secret Invasion, Civil War, etc... Its pretty much been an Avengers story and Spidey was just one component of that. Norman became the main villain for the entire MU. Its only fitting that one of the 3 main Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Thor) take him down. I for one am glad it was Captain America bc he was the best choice. Spiderman woudlnt have seem right especially considering they havent built him up for that moment

 

[Manic]

Nightcrawler's been dead for like 3 minutes, chum.

But he's been out of the limelight for about 3 years. He hasn't done anything since Rise & Fall of the Shi'ar Empire, which was done in 2007. After that, he didn't do anything during Messiah CompleX or Utopia, he wasn't in X-Force, Mike Carey didn't use him because he wasn't Rogue, and I think Matt Fraction gave him no more than a page of panel-time during most of his run.

Then he came back during the current crossover and died after a couple of issues.


It's the same thing, except in a different order. Thor died first, then stayed away for 3 years. Nightcrawler disappeared for 3 years first, then came back and died right away.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Spider-Mean should be a lot of things. Stronger, more experienced, able to shine during an event, married, unwilling to make compromises with the devil, able to take responsibility for his mistakes rather than wish them away, etc.

Very well said!

Maaaaan f**k Spider-Man.

Always nice to hear your well thought out opinion on this debate.

It's true; Spider-Man's unique relationship with Norman has been under-utilized throughout Siege; there's some potentially great material there that never appeared.

This exactly.

I agree that when Siege came out, it was an Avengers story. But, that's also because they didn't utilize the possibilities in Spider-Man.

When Norman took over, that should have been a HUGE deal for Pete. The problem was Marvel was so busy setting up their Brand New Day Status Quo and they were pulling him back from the MU to do it. Then in the meantime, Osborn takes charge of the MU. Marvel should've went in the opposite direction and have Spidey more involved with MU.

 

[Saint]

And he found himself in a position where he was so vastly far beyond Spider-Man that he had to focus on other things. He was still clearly obsessed with Spider-Man, as shown in Dark Reign: The List and "American Son." But between Loki manipulating him toward other areas and the sheer weight of his responsibilities as the head of the US' superhumans, he couldn't prioritize that obsession as much. He put his other obsession--the one for more and more power--first.

Which is out of character. By the same token, whether the Joker is embroiled in a galactic conflict with Darkseid, his primary concern is always going to be Batman. That's what an obsession is; it surmounts all other concerns. The only explanation that fits is the one mentioned above with regards to Joephisto and his ******ed reality-wipe crap changing (read: ruining) the nature of the relationship between Spider-Man and Norman.

Norman hasnt been primarily a Spidey villian ever since this started. The Marvel Universe saga has NOT been about Spiderman.

That's entirely beside the point. It's not about "whose villain he is," it's about what makes sense for the character and for the story. With regards to the former, there should have been more movement on Norman's part towards dealing with Spider-Man, being as Spider-Man has been the driving force in Norman's life for years. With regards to the latter, no, obviously Spider-Man wasn't going to roll in and save the day single-handedly, but Spider-Man has the most developed relationship of any character in the Marvel universe with Norman Osborn--and it's a significant mistake that this wasn't taken advantage of, with Norman in such a unique position.