So, do comic creators hate marriage?...

[random_havoc]

I'm going to be writing a humorous but also semi agitated article for the website I occasionally write comic reviews for (comicsbulletin.com) that's going to give the top 10 proofs that Marvel and DC hate marriage.

If you have any suggestions to add, post them here. Or if you just want to debate the subject, by all means go for it. Here's what I've got so far as to the 10 points I'll be elaborating on (in no particular order):

1. Spider-Man/Mary Jane - marriage ended via the devil and convoluted storyline
2. Superman/Lois Lane - ended via reboot
3. Flash/(forget her name) - ended via reboot
4. Elongated Man/Sue Dibney - ended with her rape (right?) and murder
5. Green Arrow/Black Canary -via reboot
6. Hawkeye/Mockingbird - How exactly did this one end? I know it was convoluted and involved death/alien abduction
7. Scott Summers/Jean Grey - psychic cheating then death
8. Scott Summers/madelyne prior (should this one be on here? Not sure exactly what happened with this one either)
9. Vision and Scarlet Witch
10.

Any nominees for #10?

I've heard reference to Ray Palmer but don't know what happened there at all. I've thought of Johnny Storm and Alicia/skrull girl as a possibility.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Hank pym (yellow jacket)/ janet van dyne ( wasp) went pyscho cause of growing to big cause of his Pym gas( that sounds really bad!) and beat her ass and she divorced him!

and i agree Random just like "Lois and Clark" once that romantic tension is achieved then it seems like creators have nothing better to do than to break them up ,which is sad because if you are a good writer. i think you still keep the characters interesting without them breaking up..not really a comic couple but take Green Lantern and Hawkgirl on justice league cartoon. They did that whole" will they or wont they" just to break them up! its really becoming a cliche just a death is in comics.

 

[Themanofbat]

Who did Rick Jones marry in the 90's in PAD's Hulk?

 

[Dread]

It may be worth noting that Iron Fist and Misty Knight have been hot & cold for decades and every time something even hints at them making long term plans like, gasp, engagement, it ends faster than Flash can cross a street.

However, I feel that many comic writers and creators have nothing against a comic book marriage...so long as THEY'RE the ones who hitched 'em. Joe Q, Hudlin, and others had nothing against Storm and Black Panther marrying, and despite the fact that the stunt did nothing to boost sales for either, it's a marriage supported down the line.

Brian Bendis hitched Luke Cage and Jessica Jones (his own character; Mary Sue alert!) and even had them bare a child. This is usually an "asking for death" move in comics, but because Bendis is Marvel's #1 writer and probably has an editor's spot waiting for him whenever he decides to retire from monthly scribes and wear pants to work, they're literally the safest family in comics. Nothing bad will happen to them unless Bendis wants to do so, and he wouldn't. They're too close to home for him. And that's great, truly. It merely rings hypocritical when he cares nothing for the dynamics of other characters he's destroyed in some of his past stories.

And despite it all, Reed and Sue have remained a married couple since the 60's, despite rocky periods in the 80's and especially the 90's. Part of me feels that the only reason that "family" has been maintained, 2 kids and all, is because most of it was grandfathered in by Stan & Jack on their 100 issue run of FF and no Marvel editor has the heart to destroy the foundation of the MU like that, at least yet.

The dilemma is that most writers and editors still maintain that the old "Campbellian Hero" format is inflexible. It is a format which supposedly every hero follows from ancient myth to modern stories that suggests that the journey always ends with marriage and family, and thus no new adventures can come after. However, in ancient times it was common for men to see that as a hurdle, but I thought this was the 21st century where men were supposed to be more than savages. Family can be an adventure to - just look at "THE INCREDIBLES". The idea that marriage means an end to romantic stories - that there is no romance in marriage - is itself a sexist idea borne of men who hate their marriages and wish to end them, but haven't the balls. Men who see a long term commitment with a woman not as an opportunity, but a ball and chain on any potential. That was common in 1950, but this is supposed to be 2011, right?

Comics are perennially run by men in their late 30's to mid 40's, and usually older, who seek to grasp what excites younger men and they usually believe that's younger, bachelor heroes having lots of love triangles and interchangeable lovers with no commitment, because that's the bane of teenagers. If they had a wit of sense, they'd know that for about 15 years, every teenage boy has at some point watched or heard of "DRAGON BALL Z", which is only the most well known and action packed anime series which revolves around a married hero who not only has kids, but GRANDKIDS, and nobody thinks he's lame because of those things. But, never underestimate the ability of old men to guess on what excites younger people and get it 100% wrong. That's part of why comics have seen dwindling sales and have been unable to hook anyone new for ages.

 

[Dread]

Who did Rick Jones marry in the 90's in PAD's Hulk?

Marlo Chandler, who's now been turned into a Harpy - wow, someone's wife is literally a harpy - totally not sexist, folks!

Granted, this is a company that literally has female characters named Battle-Axe and Gold-Digger.

 

[runawayboulder]

A lot of those listed above had been married for a long time. Not for nothing but it's got to be very hard for writers to keep fans interested in the relationship when it goes on for 20-30yrs publication time. Most real married couples today can't make it 5 years these days. Reed and Sue are the lone exception because their whole franchise is built around the family dynamic. There have been times when they have been separated by fate.

What I hate is editorial agendas to break a couple apart like.........of course - Pete and MJ.

 

[Shazam]

I'm going to be writing a humorous but also semi agitated article for the website I occasionally write comic reviews for (comicsbulletin.com) that's going to give the top 10 proofs that Marvel and DC hate marriage.

If you have any suggestions to add, post them here. Or if you just want to debate the subject, by all means go for it. Here's what I've got so far as to the 10 points I'll be elaborating on (in no particular order):

1. Spider-Man/Mary Jane - marriage ended via the devil and convoluted storyline
2. Superman/Lois Lane - ended via reboot
3. Flash/(forget her name) - ended via reboot
4. Elongated Man/Sue Dibney - ended with her rape (right?) and murder
5. Green Arrow/Black Canary -via reboot
6. Hawkeye/Mockingbird - How exactly did this one end? I know it was convoluted and involved death/alien abduction
7. Scott Summers/Jean Grey - psychic cheating then death
8. Scott Summers/madelyne prior (should this one be on here? Not sure exactly what happened with this one either)
9. Vision and Scarlet Witch
10.

Any nominees for #10?

I've heard reference to Ray Palmer but don't know what happened there at all. I've thought of Johnny Storm and Alicia/skrull girl as a possibility.

This generation of people in our society have no respect for marriage PERIOD. These writers are just a sampling of the general feelings that are unfortunately out there. You have really stumbled on to something here. These writers mold these characters into reflections of themselves.

 

[runawayboulder]

BTW, Sue Dibney wasn't raped then killed. She was raped in a flashback sequence in the same story by Dr. Light(Identity Crisis). She was killed in what was the present story being told.

 

[random_havoc]

I think i'm gonna go with daredevil for #10. After all he was married to that blind chick for all of 2 seconds before they brutalized that relationship

 

[sandwraith]

From the perspective of the writers, marriage is a bit of a...lockdown of creativity I guess.

By marrying off a character, you pretty much make it hard to include all sorts of sexual trysts that make comic books interesting.

Let's make a totally make-believe case sample. If somewhere down the line Conan the Barbarian decided to marry early on in his life and actually stayed truthful to his spouse, that would essentially kill half the readership for Conan because we half-expect him to bang every female character by the middle part of the arc. Its a selling point for characters to remain single so they have viable love interests and thus more plot threads to develop.

 

[RLAAMJR.]

I didn't like Storm and Black Panther marriage


Storm

 

[WildcatNC]

Probably. I would ask why everyone doesn't hate marriage.

 

[venom892]

Marriage works for some characters not so much for others.It depends on the character.For example Batman isn't a character I can ever envision having any sort of long term relationship.His obsession just doesn't allow it.Other characters like Spider-man and Superman I feel are the type of guys who would want to be married.Superman was raised in a small town with loving parents.He would treasure the idea of marriage.Spider-man was raised by his Aunt and Uncle who were clearly each others support and that relationship no doubt shaped Peter's beliefs on love and marriage.Peter to me doesn't seem like the type of guy who can be a ladies man and would even want to.Peter being married even goes back to the responsibility motif of his origin.When He's out there fighting Scorpion or Shocker now he can't just fight them with reckless abandon because he has someone he's responsible for back home.It makes for good interesting stories.For example Kraven's Last Hunt wouldn't have the same impact if Spider-man were single.That's just my take on it though.

 

[ThDWgeek]

What I find weird is Quesada's reasons behind erasing Pete and MJ's marriage. I remember hearing that he said it went down in the way it did because he didn't want to say to kids the divorce is ok. So if this is the case, then he wants kids to think "Divorce is bad, but deals with devils are completely fine!". I know I'm probably nowhere near the first to point that out, but still... it's weird.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Johnn Blaze's wife was murdered and the kids somehow disappeared and were said to have died.

There was no explanation why they died...except maybe that Blaze got his own comic book where he was reunited with his kids...then ends up somehow losing them again.

His wife and kids made a few appearances that I can remember. Roxanne was resurrected from the dead to be a concubine of Blackheart, then later Noble Kale. She shows up in the 'Crossroads' arc to help Johnny Blaze in Hell...then her and the kids show in Heaven at the end of Heaven's on Fire.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

This generation of people in our society have no respect for marriage PERIOD. These writers are just a sampling of the general feelings that are unfortunately out there. You have really stumbled on to something here. These writers mold these characters into reflections of themselves.

Dude! Shazam! i sooooooooo agree with this!!

 

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder why once they marry off people, why they wont let them get divorced? So instead just go with the reboot solution?

 

[Godzilla2014]

I think a lot of it has to do either with a misunderstanding of marriage in human relationships or a distaste for the permanency of marriage. The misunderstanding is that marriage has less conflicts in it than dating, which is not really true. The distaste for the permanency of marriage I think, is either that the writers have their ideas of the characters, and sometimes big changes like marriages contradict those ideas and preconceptions, or that it prevents said writer from using yo-yo romances or having the characters in relationships with other people.

 

[WildcatNC]

I wonder why once they marry off people, why they wont let them get divorced? So instead just go with the reboot solution?

I like to think of divorce as a "reboot". t:

 

[Dread]

I wonder why once they marry off people, why they wont let them get divorced? So instead just go with the reboot solution?

During the lead up/aftermath of ONE MORE DAY, the general line offered by Joe Q as to why the Parkers didn't get divorced was because they thought it'd "age" Peter too much. He claimed things such as merely mentioning that the two had a child who'd died at birth and got divorced made them seem "older" to Marvel's target audience of (apparently) shallow young men. Because apparently nobody young gets divorced in a nation where at least 50% of marriages end that way, and Peter (and MJ) are supposed to be in their mid 20's. While Peter even by Marvel's own fuzzy math should be at least 29-30 by now, but you'd likely never get anyone to claim he's older than about 27, at best.

I do wonder how a creator summit went where a bunch of editors and writers got into a room and decided that a story in which a deal is made with Mephisto that rewrites a great chunk of continuity is more in character with an "everyman" hero like Spider-Man than a divorce.

I think Marvel missed one here; merely the announcement that their iconic hero was going through a divorce storyline - even an amicable one - would have gotten copy in the media and pushed a lot of comics. And the irony is a great deal of the BND and BT stories would have worked out with modest re-writes. Sure, Harry wouldn't have come back. But, "remasking" Spider-Man after CIVIL WAR was done via the Illuminati in OMIT, which meant that was always a non-Mephisto solution in theory. I just feel that, personal feelings aside, Marvel chose the most difficult and polarizing method of ending that marriage that they could have come up with aside for MJ being brutalized and killed by Dr. Light in a DC crossover. And while I know Marvel and DC feel that translates into sales, it also translates into the simmering bitterness and apathy in the fanbase that erodes sales over time, line wide. Companies should be striving to unite fans, not divide them. The fact that OMD, almost 4 years later, can STILL inflame fans by it's mere mention showcases the folly of that decision.

There are many ways to tear down a wall. Using a nuke isn't the best one.

 

[hippie_hunter]

BTW, Sue Dibney wasn't raped then killed. She was raped in a flashback sequence in the same story by Dr. Light(Identity Crisis). She was killed in what was the present story being told.

Not only that but after Elongated Man died they were reunited in death. Elongated Man/Sue Dibney doesn't count.

 

[hippie_hunter]

3. Flash/(forget her name) - ended via reboot

Iris West

4. Elongated Man/Sue Dibney - ended with her rape (right?) and murder

Their marriage never ended. Ralph and Sue stayed together for years after her rape by Dr. Light and it never ended with her death. Ralph was devastated by Sue's death. After Ralph died in 52, their spirits were reunited and they became ghost detectives solving crimes dealing with the paranormal.

5. Green Arrow/Black Canary -via reboot

Actually, the Green Arrow/Black Canary marriage ended in divorce. Gail Simone and J.T. Krul both hated the marriage and when they took control of the two characters, they ended the marriage in the Fall of Green Arrow storyline.

6. Hawkeye/Mockingbird - How exactly did this one end? I know it was convoluted and involved death/alien abduction

Mockingbird divorced Hawkeye in Avengers West Coast. Secret Invasion retconned it to where Mockingbird did sign the divorce papers before she was replaced by a Skrull and the Mockingbird that Hawkeye reconciled with at the end of Avengers West Coast was a Skrull. The Skrull Mockingbird was the one who was killed by Mephisto in Avengers West Coast #100.

They attempted to have a go at another relationship after she was freed from Skrull captivity, but the relationship was far too strained by the end due to various psychological issues created by Mockingbird's captivity by the Skrull Empire, Hawkeye watching her die but turn out she didn't, and philosophical issues over the work that Mockingbird does in the World Counter-terrorism Agency.

8. Scott Summers/madelyne prior (should this one be on here? Not sure exactly what happened with this one either)

Scott left her and their son the very instant that he heard that Jean Grey was alive.

Any nominees for #10?

Daredevil and Milla Donovan. Batman and Talia al Ghuls' marriage was annulled and then retconned out by Zero Hour.

I've heard reference to Ray Palmer but don't know what happened there at all.

Jean Loring had an affair with another lawyer and they ended up getting a divorce.

I've thought of Johnny Storm and Alicia/skrull girl as a possibility.

Johnny's marriage to Lyja was essentially annulled after the constant deceptions like lying that she was Alicia Masters, lying about her death, lying that she was pregnant with his child, etc.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Comics are perennially run by men in their late 30's to mid 40's, and usually older, who seek to grasp what excites younger men and they usually believe that's younger, bachelor heroes having lots of love triangles and interchangeable lovers with no commitment, because that's the bane of teenagers. If they had a wit of sense, they'd know that for about 15 years, every teenage boy has at some point watched or heard of "DRAGON BALL Z", which is only the most well known and action packed anime series which revolves around a married hero who not only has kids, but GRANDKIDS, and nobody thinks he's lame because of those things. But, never underestimate the ability of old men to guess on what excites younger people and get it 100% wrong. That's part of why comics have seen dwindling sales and have been unable to hook anyone new for ages.

Actually even though DC isn't innocent in the marriage department, they at least have their characters have children. Batman adopted Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain and ended up having Damian Wayne with Talia. Superman and Lois Lane adopted General Zod's son and named him Christopher. Aquaman has two dead children. Green Arrow had two children and considered Lian to be his granddaughter. The Flash had twins and Kid Flash and XS are his grandchildren. And Martian Manhunter had a daughter as well before Mars was destroyed.

 

[random_havoc]

Actually even though DC isn't innocent in the marriage department, they at least have their characters have children. Batman adopted Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain and ended up having Damian Wayne with Talia. Superman and Lois Lane adopted General Zod's son and named him Christopher. Aquaman has two dead children. Green Arrow had two children and considered Lian to be his granddaughter. The Flash had twins and Kid Flash and XS are his grandchildren. And Martian Manhunter had a daughter as well before Mars was destroyed.

lol, a lot of that inspires me to want to write a "Comic creators hate children" article

 

[hippie_hunter]

lol, a lot of that inspires me to want to write a "Comic creators hate children" article

Well let's see:

- Batman's adoption of Dick Grayson is never mentioned and considering how condensed the timeline is now and how much younger the characters are, I think the adoptions of Dick Grayson and Jason Todd have been retconned out of the DCnU.

- Christopher Kent has been erased from existence.

- Barry has never been married to Iris so the Tornado Twins are gone. Though Bart Allen is for some reason.

- Lian Harper was not only killed, but has been erased from existence.

- Both of Aquaman's sons have been killed.

- Green Arrow's sons have been erased from existence.