So How Was Church Today?

[JewishHobbit]

So yeah, we have a religious debate thread but there's those of us, christian or otherwise, who just aren't really into the debate thing. Sometimes we'd just like to talk... at least, that's my mentality. So I thought I'd give this thread a shot where, instead of the debates and name calling and all that crap, just talk about religious things, what happened at church, experiences you've had... and just be open. Just listen. Just have fun and discuss.

I don't mind discussion about a particular event someone is discussing, some debate, but I don't want to see any religious debates in general because that goes in the other thread, which I have no interest in visiting or recreating.

 

[GhostPoet]

Church was great. But my wife and I plan on moving to a new church. It just wasn't the right fit for us spiritually or socially. You really need to be a comfortably social person to go to our church and we are still learning how to be comfortable as socializers. The new church we found is really right up our alley. Not ultra-conservative and messages that can easily be applied to our lives. Hopefully this will be our last church hop. Don't want to fall into the trap of being a sunday christian and I think that is where we were headed with our current church.

 

[JewishHobbit]

So here's what first got me interested in starting this debate. I was at church maybe a month ago and one of my pastors gave a fantastic message that was spot on toward how I was feeling about church and christians in general at the time... and that's ashamed of them for how they act and how judgemental they (and I) could be. I was kinda falling away from God and church before we came to this church maybe three months ago and I'm completely changing my mind.

He posted a blog about it and it ended up on this site.

An Open Apology For The Church

I am a pastor. But I am also a movie producer, actor and comedian. It is the latter that opens the door for spiritual conversations much more than the former. I have many friends who are not the sort of people one might expect a pastor to associate with – militant atheists, genuine agnostics, outspoken anti-Christian homosexuals, etc. I don’t just call them those things. They like to assign those labels to themselves. All of them became my friends through our mutual respect for filmmaking, comedy or theater. Generally speaking, they remain my friends in spite of my involvement with the church. None of them are my friends because I am a pastor.

Many of my friends genuinely hate the church. Most of them have good reasons. Since 1998 I have kept a working document on my notebook called, “An Open Apology.” I update it from time to time. Sometimes I forward it onto my friends who have been hurt by Christianity. Sometimes I just share part of it with them.

I ask your forgiveness for the ongoing corruption of the church at large since the early days of the church, for I believe that it is a sin to use the church for personal or political gain.

I ask your forgiveness for every boring church event, church service, or sermon since the creation of the world, for I believe that it is a sin to bore people with really good news.

I ask your forgiveness for the silence of a significant percentage of the European church during the Jewish holocaust and of the American church during the years of slavery, for I believe that it is a sin for the church of God to stand by while innocent people die.

I ask your forgiveness for the unimaginable violence done in and through and with the blessing of the church throughout history, for I believe Jesus died once for all of us to put an end to violence.

I ask your forgiveness for the weight of rules and legalism that has shackled the church, making it oppressively fear-based and guilt-centered, for I believe that it is a sin to deny people their freedom in Christ.

I ask your forgiveness for every power-crazed political zealot who has ever advocated hatred against people in the name of Christ, for I believe that it is a sin to judge in the place of God.

I ask your forgiveness for every sidewalk and soap-box preacher who has so much as cracked upon a Bible with anger or pride in his heart, for I believe that it is a sin to misrepresent the character of a loving God.

I ask your forgiveness for every cult leader and extremist group leader who has ever led people astray in the name of Jesus, for I believe that it is a sin to desire the position of Jesus as the head of the church.

I ask your forgiveness for every pastor or priest who has ever served the church to get money, fame or sex because I believe the church is Jesus’ Bride, not some random guy’s mistress.

I ask your forgiveness for the millions of men in the church who have somehow stretched the Bible to validate their own sexist views, for I believe that it is a sin to dishonor a woman.

I ask your forgiveness for the thousands of church splits and denominational factions that have ripped the body of Christ in every direction except heavenward, for I believe that Christians loving and forgiving each other is the best way to show people who God is.

I ask your forgiveness for the thousands of churches who are set up as extravagant social clubs, for I believe that it is a sin to ignore the poor among you.

I ask your forgiveness for every misspent dime that was ever placed in an offering plate, for I believe that it is a sin to waste an old lady’s tithe.

I ask your forgiveness for the prostituting of the American church and the American church leader to the American dream, for I believe that it is a sin for the church or her leaders to love money more than God.

I ask your forgiveness for every self-centered, self-proclaimed “miracle worker” who has sold people counterfeit hope and light and fluffy theology for $19.95 plus shipping and handling, for I believe that it is a sin to spit in the face of God.

I ask your forgiveness for every sin of every priest, pastor, minister, reverend, teacher, elder, deacon, pope, nun, monk, missionary, Sunday school teacher, worship leader, and for every Christian who has ever come into your life for any other reason than to love you. If any of us came to you and hurt you, we are the ones at fault. On our behalf, let me say that I am very sorry. It’s not who we are supposed to be.

And lastly for me. I am no better than the rest. I am no role model. I’m misguided. I get confused a lot and I have hurt people in my misguided attempts to be “Christian.” I have not always loved God or the people around me. I am ashamed of me much of the time. I am ashamed of my people who have hurt you.

But I am not ashamed of the gospel. I am not ashamed of the good news that God has come near to you and is right now available to you through Jesus. I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is power from a loving God who can save you. He can save us all, even us Christians.

 

[Erzengel]

This happened a couple of months ago, and just got me thinking how one would do it, but I chatted this girl up and even though I'm "taken", I wondered to myself how one would pick up a girl in church.

 

[The Squirrel]

Church was good this past Sunday. Pastor finished a series on Comforting the Afflicted, and I want out to lunch with some new peeps (mostly girls).

 

[JewishHobbit]

Church was great. But my wife and I plan on moving to a new church. It just wasn't the right fit for us spiritually or socially. You really need to be a comfortably social person to go to our church and we are still learning how to be comfortable as socializers. The new church we found is really right up our alley. Not ultra-conservative and messages that can easily be applied to our lives. Hopefully this will be our last church hop. Don't want to fall into the trap of being a sunday christian and I think that is where we were headed with our current church.

You're in the same boat my family's been in. My wife grew up Church of God (Penticostal) and I came in when I was 15, but now that I'm 30 and she's 29, we realized it just wasn't a good fit for us. We loved our church and the people in it but we disagreed with some of the theology and general mindsets toward certain issues.

So we switched to a Non-Denominational church (after jumping around other Penticostal churches) and fell in love. It's wierd listening to things taught differently than how we've always known them but in most cases I find I agree with this new church moreso than the old one.

So I wish you luck in your search. It feels good to finally find a church that suits you.

 

[JewishHobbit]

This happened a couple of months ago, and just got me thinking how one would do it, but I chatted this girl up and even though I'm "taken", I wondered to myself how one would pick up a girl in church.

First suggestion... wait until you're "untaken." Then, if you're in church, just make sure it's done cleanly. Don't ask if she wants to bang in the baptismal or anything

Church was good this past Sunday. Pastor finished a series on Comforting the Afflicted, and I want out to lunch with some new peeps (mostly girls).

Erzengel... take notes.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

My faith has been tested too many times that I've lost it. I don't feel right inside a church anymore.

 

[Erzengel]

First suggestion... wait until you're "untaken." Then, if you're in church, just make sure it's done cleanly. Don't ask if she wants to bang in the baptismal or anything



Erzengel... take notes.

Eh, never really had the opportunity to pick up a girl through a church setting. It was just a thought in my head. I'm happily taken, just curious.

 

[Ajendo]

My faith has been tested too many times that I've lost it. I don't feel right inside a church anymore.

If you're never been tested then you're in a bad place. The fact that your faith is constantly being tested is actually a good thing. See it as a major intervention for you to bring yourself closer to God and not move further away.
Hospitals don't harbour or treat those that are fit and well, they work on the sick. Check yourself into God's presence and really focus on establishing your relationship with him.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My faith has been tested too many times that I've lost it. I don't feel right inside a church anymore.

If you ever need an anonymous person to talk to about it my PM box is open, or feel free to discuss it here if you're more open. I'd love to offer advice but won't throw it out there unless I know the situation. My one promise is that I won't be judgemental at all. I lost my own belief in God for a few years until fairly recently so I get it.

But Ajendo had some good advice there, and sometimes I do think that it's good to consider God outside of Church and see if that helps build the faith, which can then lead you to finding the right Church to attend (if at all).

 

[JewishHobbit]

Eh, never really had the opportunity to pick up a girl through a church setting. It was just a thought in my head. I'm happily taken, just curious.

Well, for the sake of curiosity... girls in church are the same as girls outside of church... just typically a bit more "moral" (which is subjective, I know). Typically, for me in my single days, I just got to know them like you would outside of church, make sure they're a fit for me, and then asked them to a movie or something simple like that. You may need to consider if they're against R ratings or if there's certain things that they're cautious on (such as movies with too much sex or language or whatever) but otherwise it's about the same as girls out of church. And be cautious on how physical to get if things go well.

That's from my minor dating experiences prior to meeting my wife.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My church is big and we have 4 services, or celebrations as they call them (1 on Sat night and 3 on Sun morning). This was on my senior pastor's facebook Saturday:

It made me chuckle

 

[Quasimod0]

The Bible says not to have sex until marriage, which isnt easy. but i'm trying

 

[C. Lee]

Having a pastor that has a sense of humor is good.

 

[rodhulk]

Since the topic came up, I would always stress to people looking for a Church to not find a Church that teaches them what 'they' want to hear, but rather find a Church that teaches them what 'God' wants them to hear.

 

[Bubonic]

Since the topic came up, I would always stress to people looking for a Church to not find a Church that teaches them what 'they' want to hear, but rather find a Church that teaches them what 'God' wants them to hear.

What's the logic behind that?
One would have to know what it is God would want them to hear.
The whole statement seems to take as much mind-bending as would understanding the paradoxes of time travel.

 

[rodhulk]

What's the logic behind that?
One would have to know what it is God would want them to hear.
The whole statement seems to take as much mind-bending as would understanding the paradoxes of time travel.

The idea is that people find Churches that teach them what they simply want to believe rather than the actual truth God is teaching. They don't want to be taught something they don't like but sometimes the message God gives us are messages we don't want to hear but if that's the truth, then that's what should actually matter.

 

[some guy]

So here's what first got me interested in starting this debate. I was at church maybe a month ago and one of my pastors gave a fantastic message that was spot on toward how I was feeling about church and christians in general at the time... and that's ashamed of them for how they act and how judgemental they (and I) could be. I was kinda falling away from God and church before we came to this church maybe three months ago and I'm completely changing my mind.

He posted a blog about it and it ended up on this site.

An Open Apology For The Church

Thank you for this. As someone who has felt weighed down by my faith, this was really comforting to me.

 

[Duker Jay]

My pastor said this as part of his message Sunday and it stuck with me:

"A sense of God's absence is a sign of his presence."

It was a sermon addressing what he called a type of "Christian atheist" who understands and perhaps agrees with the Christian doctrine but doesn't feel connected emotionally or spiritually...or for whom the Jesus relationship thing isn't working.

I don't know that I could explain it sufficiently but essentially he was suggesting that sometimes we need to understand Christian spirituality in our minds and let that inform and empower how we feel and act about it.

It was good.

 

[Bubonic]

The idea is that people find Churches that teach them what they simply want to believe rather than the actual truth God is teaching. They don't want to be taught something they don't like but sometimes the message God gives us are messages we don't want to hear but if that's the truth, then that's what should actually matter.

There are a lot of interpretations of the good book though... How is one to be certain which is right?

It must be difficult to ascertain what truth God is teaching when it is up to the particular priest, rabbi, or imam to interpret the message of God for you and up to you to interpret what the holy man set out to convey.

So do you mean that if a believers first inclination is to filter the word of God through Presbyterianism they should instead consider Anglicanism? Or that someone following Hasidic Judaism instead consider Orthodox Judaism?

I am truly confused by what you're trying to clarify for me, thank you for your patience and my apologies if I seem obtuse.

 

[rodhulk]

There are a lot of interpretations of the good book though... How is one to be certain which is right?

It must be difficult to ascertain what truth God is teaching when it is up to the particular priest, rabbi, or imam to interpret the message of God for you and up to you to interpret what the holy man set out to convey.

So do you mean that if a believers first inclination is to filter the word of God through Presbyterianism they should instead consider Anglicanism? Or that someone following Hasidic Judaism instead consider Orthodox Judaism?

I am truly confused by what you're trying to clarify for me, thank you for your patience and my apologies if I seem obtuse.

No, everything is fine, that's what these threads are for. I enjoy it and thanks for the conversation.

I would always say that the final answer should be in the scriptures. Even the scriptures testify to that. Whatever somebody teaches, make sure it's what the Bible teaches (or at least it doesn't oppose scripture in any way).

But what I was referring to in my original post was people find a Church that teaches them what they want to hear. This could be anything from lifestyle to power.

So (and please understand this as only an example rather than starting a whole round of debates), if a person is gay, they will most likely find a Church that accepts gays as being biblically OK. Again, this is what they want to believe and so will want this type of Church regardless if it's biblically OK to live this lifestyle or not. Or somebody may want to only go to a Church if there are 'powerful' people there. This could include people of political or sports careers. They may want to be associated with these peopel for some type of 'power' purpose, perhaps. So they are going to this Church for other reasons rather than God. Or it may be somebody who just wants everything to be happy and no hellfire and judgement (even if that's what the Bible teaches).

I hope something can come through in this post.

 

[rodhulk]

Since the topic came up, I would always stress to people looking for a Church to not find a Church that teaches them what 'they' want to hear, but rather find a Church that teaches them what 'God' wants them to hear.

To this, I'd like to add:

"Going to Church doesn't make one a christian any more than standing in a garage makes one a car."

 

[Bubonic]

No, everything is fine, that's what these threads are for. I enjoy it and thanks for the conversation.

You're welcome, the pleasure is mine. I'm like a blank slate on most of this and it's great for someone to take the time and share their knowledge with me.

I would always say that the final answer should be in the scriptures. Even the scriptures testify to that. Whatever somebody teaches, make sure it's what the Bible teaches (or at least it doesn't oppose scripture in any way).

So the key would be to find the most literal translation of scripture. Get it as bare bones as it can be so that there is no mistaking the message. So far as the Old Testament is concerned I guess that be in Hebraic? And for the New Testament would something like the King James version be adequate or is the Greek version the definite one?

So (and please understand this as only an example rather than starting a whole round of debates), if a person is gay, they will most likely find a Church that accepts gays as being biblically OK. Again, this is what they want to believe and so will want this type of Church regardless if it's biblically OK to live this lifestyle or not.

Okay, so one would do well to avoid a church that completely ignores certain passages, and it seems pretty clear in Leviticus 18:22, in all versions I've seen, that a man shouldn't lie with another man like he would a woman.

Or somebody may want to only go to a Church if there are 'powerful' people there. This could include people of political or sports careers. They may want to be associated with these peopel for some type of 'power' purpose, perhaps. So they are going to this Church for other reasons rather than God. Or it may be somebody who just wants everything to be happy and no hellfire and judgement (even if that's what the Bible teaches).

I'd heard varying opinions on this, that was what made me think of the Greek translations in the first place. Something to do with the Gospel of Matthew and whether or not it was clear that it confirmed everlasting hellfire or not.

I don't know the first thing about Greek, or Aramaic...
I know sometimes when I translate expressions from my mother tongue French to my father tongue English that it doesn't come out right or loses its meaning.

Does that sort of stuff matter, or it's been settled already?

I hope something can come through in this post.

Might not seem like it, but things are indeed shaping up despite my spiritual learning curve. t:

 

[Colossal Spoons]

My faith has been tested too many times that I've lost it. I don't feel right inside a church anymore.

The next cereal conversation we have needs to be about this. I'd benefit from it as well.