Theology discussion

[Danalys]

the point of the bible is surposedly that you will have freewill, but not use it and instead follow gods will. and considering he's ment to be so smart it would seem like a good idea. but we don't know he is smart tho or even exists. if he does then he has created humanity. and humanity has rebelled against god as satan did in gods name. it's like an experiment running out of control. so lets say as soon as there was rebellion god created punishment. he punished adam and eve by kicking them out of eden. do unto others as you would have them do to you? think god wants punishing then. so he becomes man to be punished. or so the story goes. and what of him after punishment. after sacrifice. what does he do then. original sin is forgiven so that man can rise to perfection again. so shouldn't you be able to live forever? if you live correctly. with a conscience.

 

[Kessel Day]

So we're inbred? Thought schtupping your sister or brother or whatever is a sin in the Bible.

well hullo, USMC. long time no see.

yeah, if God's purpose was that Eve would be the mother of everyone living, some of the first children born would have had to marry one another. there would have been no problem with inherited diseases because those children were very close to perfection.

it sounds creepy to us but consider this: these people lived very long lives. the Bible says that some didn't have children until they were more than 100 years old. (Seth was 105 when he had kids and lived 912 years; Methuselah was 187 and lived 969 years.)

by the time these children were ready to marry, they probably had their own dwellings and may have not even have been in the same household as A&E when their future spouse was born.


by the time the nation of Israel was formed, human beings were much more imperfect - their lifespans had shortened to 70 or 80. God forbade close marriages to prevent diseases caused by this imperfection in our genetic code.

and on an historical note - the Bible says that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister too. the ancient Egyptians married their siblings all the time.

 

[Kessel Day]

the point of the bible is surposedly that you will have freewill, but not use it and instead follow gods will.

it is still the exercise of freewill to choose to follow God's will.

for example: you are going on your first boat ride. one of the ship's complement says it is a good idea to wear a lifejacket, but you are not required to. if you decide to wear the lifejacket, did you give up your free will on the decision? no. you just decided to follow that sailor's advise because he has more experience sailing than you do.

and considering he's ment to be so smart it would seem like a good idea. but we don't know he is smart tho or even exists.

"Draw close to God and He will draw close to you." (James 4:8a0

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Danalys, the only way to ever find God is to look into the communication He wrote to us, the Bible. the Bible is full of wisdom and shows us how to be happy right now.

if he does then he has created humanity. and humanity has rebelled against god as satan did in gods name. it's like an experiment running out of control.

when Adam and Eve rebelled, they were saying that they thought humans could rule themselves better than God could.

God is allowing us to rule ourselves for a short time (to Him). when we have absolutely shown that we cannot care for ourselves, care for the weakest among us, then He will step in and end it. the day is set and every day we are closer to it.

so lets say as soon as there was rebellion god created punishment. he punished adam and eve by kicking them out of eden.

actually the punishment was unconscious death.

do unto others as you would have them do to you? think god wants punishing then. so he becomes man to be punished. or so the story goes. and what of him after punishment. after sacrifice. what does he do then. original sin is forgiven so that man can rise to perfection again. so shouldn't you be able to live forever? if you live correctly. with a conscience.

the Almighty God did not become a man. He sent His firstborn Son to do so as a "corresponding" ransom for mankind.

it is only by having faith in the sacrifice of Jesus that we have a chance for eternal life on paradise earth.

as for living correctly, many people think it is right to go slaughter innocent people because their government says to do so.

do you think God excuses them just because they "think it's right"?

 

[squeekness]

and on an historical note - the Bible says that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister too. the ancient Egyptians married their siblings all the time.

And look at how well that turned out. The royal family were mad as hatters.

 

[Kessel Day]

And look at how well that turned out. The royal family were mad as hatters.

i'm not condoning it, squeek. we all know the dangers it poses today. (and while there were some physical weaknesses for the pharoahs, are you sure madness was one of them?)

 

[squeekness]

i'm not condoning it, squeek. we all know the dangers it poses today. (and while there were some physical weaknesses for the pharoahs, are you sure madness was one of them?)

I wouldn't doubt it. The european royal families intermarried just as deeply and half of them were mad. The Roman Ceasars were no different. Why do think Caligula was so bad? I thought his parents were half brother and sister. I fail to see why the Egyptian royals would be any better.

 

[Kessel Day]

I wouldn't doubt it. The european royal families intermarried just as deeply and half of them were mad. The Roman Ceasars were no different. Why do think Caligula was so bad? I thought his parents were half brother and sister. I fail to see why the Egyptian royals would be any better.

one of my professors said the problem with Rome's leading citizens (including the ruling families) was that they used lead pipes to bring water into the city.

and the royal families of europe did marry cousins but i still don't remember madness being a problem - blood disorders were common though.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Incest is mentioned in the Bible,its a way of keeping things pure.Which the early Jewish and later Chrisitans wanted with their faith,there was nothing vile about it.

Yes,the bloodlines of European familes are interconneted.The British Royal Family is actually conneted to the Russian,German and French familes.A little known fact is that most American Presidents decend from a British king.

 

[GarudA]

I don't know whats more nonsensical the Abrahamic Religions or Scientology.

 

[Kessel Day]

Incest is mentioned in the Bible,its a way of keeping things pure.Which the early Jewish and later Chrisitans wanted with their faith,there was nothing vile about it.

Yes,the bloodlines of European familes are interconneted.The British Royal Family is actually conneted to the Russian,German and French familes.A little known fact is that most American Presidents decend from a British king.

incest was condoned by Christians? may i ask where you read this in the Bible?

 

[maxwell's demon]

the point of the bible is surposedly that you will have freewill, but not use it and instead follow gods will. and considering he's ment to be so smart it would seem like a good idea. but we don't know he is smart tho or even exists. if he does then he has created humanity. and humanity has rebelled against god as satan did in gods name. it's like an experiment running out of control. so lets say as soon as there was rebellion god created punishment. he punished adam and eve by kicking them out of eden. do unto others as you would have them do to you? think god wants punishing then. so he becomes man to be punished. or so the story goes. and what of him after punishment. after sacrifice. what does he do then. original sin is forgiven so that man can rise to perfection again. so shouldn't you be able to live forever? if you live correctly. with a conscience.

what if god's will IS free will?

I think the thing about arguments liek this is that they are extrapolations from an immense and mutlilayered 2000 year old text.
and that's the same problem i susally have with some pro-bible folks: taking a part of the bible in order to make their point, whatever it may be.


in short, though, i think focusing solely on god's intellect is not the wisest move.

 

[squeekness]

one of my professors said the problem with Rome's leading citizens (including the ruling families) was that they used lead pipes to bring water into the city.

and the royal families of europe did marry cousins but i still don't remember madness being a problem - blood disorders were common though.

In any race or family concerned with purity of race incest is almost inevitable. Even the Jews to some degree did this. You have 12 tribes that came from 12 sons. They all intermarried to keep Isreal pure. Several times the tribes had married outside wives but then later rejected them because those wives often brought in foriegn idols. I cant spout Scripture as well as you guys can, but I was certain there were times that the Jewish royals had married nieces and what not. I think it's only in more modern times that folks have figured out that these things lead to genetic disasters and we know better than to keep doing this.

 

[pyromaniac]

If you'd like to get closer to God, read Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch.

I recommend it, Kessel Day and a few others.

Ta.

 

[Kessel Day]

If you'd like to get closer to God, read Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch.

I recommend it, Kessel Day and a few others.

Ta.

my God's name is Jehovah. is your book about that God or the triune God worshipped in most of Christendom?

 

[danielisthor]

For people who have genuinely chosen their faith ( not the ones who've had it forced on them ), it's incomprehensible too see us as only visceral beings. It's not an accident that we ask "why?".

And here will lie, my personal problem with the christian faith. If your ancestors come from Northern Europe, hell technically, Europe, then in all likelihood, your faith wasn't chosen genuinely, it was forced upon you, or you were put to death. (in the northern european people). If your ancestors do not come directly of the Middle East and you are Muslim, Christian or Jewish, then you are probably living a religious lie.

 

[Kessel Day]

And here will lie, my personal problem with the christian faith. If your ancestors come from Northern Europe, hell technically, Europe, then in all likelihood, your faith wasn't chosen genuinely, it was forced upon you, or you were put to death. (in the northern european people). If your ancestors do not come directly of the Middle East and you are Muslim, Christian or Jewish, then you are probably living a religious lie.

the early followers of Jesus changed their faith from the ones they grew up (Jewish/Gentile) with because they believed that Jesus was the messiah, the Son of God.

the test of the true religion should not be whether you or your ancesters were raised in it - it should be whether it is pleasing to God.

in my case, i was not raised with any religion. i looked into many religions, including that of the Bible. i decided that the Bible was God's Word to mankind. then i looked for the religion the most closely adhered to it.

 

[danielisthor]

the early followers of Jesus changed their faith from the ones they grew up (Jewish/Gentile) with because they believed that Jesus was the messiah, the Son of God.

the test of the true religion should not be whether you or your ancesters were raised in it - it should be whether it is pleasing to God.

in my case, i was not raised with any religion. i looked into many religions, including that of the Bible. i decided that the Bible was God's Word to mankind. then i looked for the religion the most closely adhered to it.

I can respect that. You chose on your own accord and beliefs.

 

[Kessel Day]

I can respect that. You chose on your own accord and beliefs.

thanks, danielisthor. i think everyone owes it to himself to test whether the beliefs he was raised with are true or just a comfortable tradition.

 

[Lantern Venom]

And here will lie, my personal problem with the christian faith. If your ancestors come from Northern Europe, hell technically, Europe, then in all likelihood, your faith wasn't chosen genuinely, it was forced upon you, or you were put to death. (in the northern european people). If your ancestors do not come directly of the Middle East and you are Muslim, Christian or Jewish, then you are probably living a religious lie.

I was speaking more in terms of modernity than the Crusades and other skirmishes with religious implications. People who come from insular backgrounds are often spoon fed their outlook on life. Any school of thought that may challenge that can be regarded as evil by the authority figure(s) whether that's the family, community or govenment.
Regardless of the history surrounding a person's enviornment, they should never accept things blindly. Faith should be deeply examined to be properly understood.

 

[Kessel Day]

I was speaking more in terms of modernity than the Crusades and other skirmishes with religious implications. People who come from insular backgrounds are often spoon fed their outlook on life. Any school of thought that may challenge that can be regarded as evil by the authority figure(s) whether that's the family, community or govenment.
Regardless of the history surrounding a person's enviornment, they should never accept things blindly. Faith should be deeply examined to be properly understood.

exactly.

 

[Danalys]

what if god's will IS free will?

I think the thing about arguments liek this is that they are extrapolations from an immense and mutlilayered 2000 year old text.
and that's the same problem i susally have with some pro-bible folks: taking a part of the bible in order to make their point, whatever it may be.


in short, though, i think focusing solely on god's intellect is not the wisest move.

it was less of an arguement and more probing for further information. if there was any arguement to be had it would be about longevity of human life, and any significance it could have.

 

[Danalys]

do you think God excuses them just because they "think it's right"?

i never said it was their own definition of what is right. you also presume it would be possible to do such with a conscience.

 

[Denny67]

do you mind if i ask why have you lost confidence in organized religion, denny?

There was a bit of advice I had heard at one point. This was after some CatholicSchool, Receiving communion and getting me confirmation. A good Christian is one who questions his/her faith. I did that. It would be a very long and word dissertation but in short things do not add up to me. I came to the conclusion that I do not need and organization to remind me what it is to be a good person and tell me how to live my life. I need to do no more than to look into myself to find those answers.

many people feel this way. the Bible says it is because "God put eternity into our hearts".

Which is why I feel the way I do about my prior answer. If that knowledge is imbedded in all of us maybe the bible and its stories were the only way primitive man had to express those ideas. You mix in the flawed nature of man and cultural (such as the taking the role of women out of anything significant) you have nothing more than folklore and superstition. No different that how the myth of vampires, Dragons and Santa Clause.

don't you think that God Himself could protect His Word from corruption, if it really is authored by Him?

Yes I do and no I do not think that it was… at/all.
The Bible how it exists today is not even in it’s entirety. Would anybody try to fire up a nuclear reactor with ½ of a manual? Most likely not. So why should an entire civilization choose to govern it’s morality with an incomplete guide? Once again, makes no sense to me.

so how do you feel about Jesus? was he the Son of God??

I think we are all sons and daughters of God. I believe that Jesus was a man that existed and was a prophet who started his own religion.

this universal code comes from the Bible. couldn't it have been from God?

Maybe and that is once again knowledge is imbedded in all of us. Which is one main reason that it is a part of 21 world religions and life belief systems:

Bahá'í World Faith: "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "
Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
Christianity: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).
Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4
Ancient Egyptian: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3
Hinduism: "One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4
Humanism: "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4
"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3
Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5
Jainism: "Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6
Native American Spirituality: "Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.
Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga
Sikhism: Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299
Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
Taoism: "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai ShangKan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49
Unitarian: "We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles.
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede
Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
Zoroastrianism: "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29
Some philosophers' statements are:
Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)
Examples from moral/ethical systems are:
Humanism: "...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.
Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."



Once again man took something very simple and complicated it with cultural and political ideas causing conflict, oppression, and strife around the world through organized religion. This idea predates many modern religions yet many insist that the idea must be boxed up and sold to the masses. Where in fact we only need for parents to pass it to their children and for schools to teach it as what is expectable. Everything else are controls based on hang up’s on sex and money and it where we have stayed as to where wars have been fought and conflict still lives.

I truly believe that the message is loud and clear on how to live our lives most of us choose not to hear it by choice, greed, ignorance, or fear.

I don’t blame people though. We were trained to think a certain way from birth and some will go to their grave never breaking away. Until we do, this world will continue to suffer for it.

 

[SuGarRush]

I've gotta ask this, cause it's really been bugging me for a while now.
I'm not trying to be mean or anything,

but didn't the guy who invented scientology used to write Science Fiction novels?

 

[Denny67]

I've gotta ask this, cause it's really been bugging me for a while now.
I'm not trying to be mean or anything,

but didn't the guy who invented scientology used to write Science Fiction novels?

Yup.

Save me Tom Cruise with your witchcraft!!!