So...why the hate for INFINITE CRISIS??

[fifthfiend]

Kal-L came to regret what was going on. He thought that he was going to restore heroism in the post-Crisis Earth, he didn't know the full extent of what Alexander Luthor was doing.

Oh yeah this was the other reason I hated IC; this stone ****ing stupid notion Johns kept pushing that there was some kind of lack of heroism in the DCU prior to IC, like at some random point he decided the post-crisis DCU timeline was "Superman dies - > *completely ignore everything that happens for the next 10 years* - > Rapefest 2K4".

It was like whoever at DC decided to have a big stupid event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was, realized oh hey wait the DCU is heroic as ****, then shat out a bunch of terrible stories making the DCU as unheroic as possible so they could do their awful event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was.

 

[Anubis]

That makes it worse, not better.

Kal-L's plan was evil.

And out of character

Yeah I was just being a dick. The embarrassed face also works as a just being a dick face.

What best shows how f**ked up that is is a little story that took place in Astro city called "The Nearness of You". It was about this guy who every night dreamed about this woman and this wonderful life with her. His guys would set him up with all these different women. Some waaay hotter and compatible than the chick he dreams about, but he just can't let her go. One night, the Spectre like character of the Astro Universe called the Hangman comes to him and tells him why he has these dreams. You see, they had this little time altering Crisis event that f**ked everything up considerably, and though the heroes were able to put time back together, there were still a few mistakes. The woman was his wife, and because of the event, her grandparents never met, so she was never born. He then asked him if he wanted him to erase the memories from his mind so he could get on with his life, and he chose to keep them. The Hangman smiled to himself and said, nobody ever chooses to forget.

 

[deathshead2]

Yeah I was just being a dick. The embarrassed face also works as a just being a dick face.

What best shows how f**ked up that is is a little story that took place in Astro city called "The Nearness of You". It was about this guy who every night dreamed about this woman and this wonderful life with her. His guys would set him up with all these different women. Some waaay hotter and compatible than the chick he dreams about, but he just can't let her go. One night, the Spectre like character of the Astro Universe called the Hangman comes to him and tells him why he has these dreams. You see, they had this little time altering Crisis event that f**ked everything up considerably, and though the heroes were able to put time back together, there were still a few mistakes. The woman was his wife, and because of the event, her grandparents never met, so she was never born. He then asked him if he wanted him to erase the memories from his mind so he could get on with his life, and he chose to keep them. The Hangman smiled to himself and said, nobody ever chooses to forget.

And this is why Kurt Busiek is a great writer.

 

[conjob_89]

Oh yeah this was the other reason I hated IC; this stone ****ing stupid notion Johns kept pushing that there was some kind of lack of heroism in the DCU prior to IC, like at some random point he decided the post-crisis DCU timeline was "Superman dies - > *completely ignore everything that happens for the next 10 years* - > Rapefest 2K4".

That's what made me turn away from the DCU altogether. Not even Peter Tomasi's (planting the seeds of Blackest Night) run on Nightwing couldn't persuade me otherwise. I came to the realization after Infinite Crisis and OYL that the DCU I once adored since I was 10 is being wiped out due to pointless Editorial Mandates and multiple cases of a Mid-Life Crisis via Dan Didio and Geoff Johns.

 

[DawnWarrior]

?

So wait, how does this work, given that K-Lawl himself is a separate being from New Earth Superman, who only existed cause he went off to Super-Valhalla when the rest of his world ceased to exist, and when you have people like Powergirl, who canonically is the Earth-2 Supergirl existing completely independently of Kara Zor-El?

The default explanation I keep in my brain: "Some people/things slipped through the cracks."

 

[Mystirious]

Yeah I was just being a dick. The embarrassed face also works as a just being a dick face.

What best shows how f**ked up that is is a little story that took place in Astro city called "The Nearness of You". It was about this guy who every night dreamed about this woman and this wonderful life with her. His guys would set him up with all these different women. Some waaay hotter and compatible than the chick he dreams about, but he just can't let her go. One night, the Spectre like character of the Astro Universe called the Hangman comes to him and tells him why he has these dreams. You see, they had this little time altering Crisis event that f**ked everything up considerably, and though the heroes were able to put time back together, there were still a few mistakes. The woman was his wife, and because of the event, her grandparents never met, so she was never born. He then asked him if he wanted him to erase the memories from his mind so he could get on with his life, and he chose to keep them. The Hangman smiled to himself and said, nobody ever chooses to forget.

Astro City is

I remember reading that story. So well written and terribly sad, but beautiful as well.

Oh yeah this was the other reason I hated IC; this stone ****ing stupid notion Johns kept pushing that there was some kind of lack of heroism in the DCU prior to IC, like at some random point he decided the post-crisis DCU timeline was "Superman dies - > *completely ignore everything that happens for the next 10 years* - > Rapefest 2K4".

It was like whoever at DC decided to have a big stupid event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was, realized oh hey wait the DCU is heroic as ****, then shat out a bunch of terrible stories making the DCU as unheroic as possible so they could do their awful event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was.

Yes, that was bull****. There was plenty of heroism in the DCU

Things may not have been black and white and simplistic as they were in the silver and golden age but there was still much heroism on display

 

[Kurosawa]

Oh yeah this was the other reason I hated IC; this stone ****ing stupid notion Johns kept pushing that there was some kind of lack of heroism in the DCU prior to IC, like at some random point he decided the post-crisis DCU timeline was "Superman dies - > *completely ignore everything that happens for the next 10 years* - > Rapefest 2K4".

It was like whoever at DC decided to have a big stupid event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was, realized oh hey wait the DCU is heroic as ****, then shat out a bunch of terrible stories making the DCU as unheroic as possible so they could do their awful event comic *****ing about how unheroic the DCU was.

I love the idea of the Multiverse coming back, (the original one), but there could have been a million better ways to do it and ways that wouldn't make all the principal characters look like asses.

 

[Mystirious]

We did get a Multiverse

Grant Morrisson will be doing a comic series about it. I am rather looking forward to it

 

[Assassin]

wow, i'm unsubscribing from this, i can't stand the idiotic babbling about a comic book story. :

 

[hippie_hunter]

I love the idea of the Multiverse coming back, (the original one), but there could have been a million better ways to do it and ways that wouldn't make all the principal characters look like asses.

Meh, the original multiverse should never come back. I'm all for the multiverse, but it should be a bit more simplistic and limited like the one we got in 52.

The problem is that a lot of these universes are flat out stupid.

 

[Kurosawa]

Meh, the original multiverse should never come back. I'm all for the multiverse, but it should be a bit more simplistic and limited like the one we got in 52.

The problem is that a lot of these universes are flat out stupid.

Regardless of if they brought back the original or not, I don't want them using them much anyway. I just want the comfort of knowing there's an Earth-One, Earth-Two etc out there. Unless it's someone like Bates or Maggin or Roy Thomas I don't want those Earths touched.

Not a fan of limiting things, however. I just can't trust them not to kill/rape/maim/ruin characters and if they gotta do that I don't want it to be the classic versions. Don't want it all really.

More than any other character, the one DC character I feel really needs his own Earth to completely work is Captain Marvel, but they've made Black Adam such a big part of their world and they clearly have no clue of what to do with Cap, so....meh.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Regardless of if they brought back the original or not, I don't want them using them much anyway. I just want the comfort of knowing there's an Earth-One, Earth-Two etc out there. Unless it's someone like Bates or Maggin or Roy Thomas I don't want those Earths touched.

Not a fan of limiting things, however. I just can't trust them not to kill/rape/maim/ruin characters and if they gotta do that I don't want it to be the classic versions. Don't want it all really.

More than any other character, the one DC character I feel really needs his own Earth to completely work is Captain Marvel, but they've made Black Adam such a big part of their world and they clearly have no clue of what to do with Cap, so....meh.

IMO the multiverse should be mostly divided by the several publishers and imprints that form DC.

New Earth: Mainstream DC Universe.

Anti-Matter Universe: Crime Syndicate of Amerika

Earth-Prime: Our Earth

Earth-1: The upcoming Earth-1 graphic novels

Earth-2: Something similar to the pre-Crisis Earth-2

Earth-3: National Comics characters: Batman, Superman, Dr. Fate, Sandman, Hour-Man, etc.

Earth-4: Charlton Comics characters

Earth-5: Fawcett Comics: Captain Marvel, Bulletman, Ibis the Invincible, etc.

Earth-6: All-American Publications characters: Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, etc.

Earth-7: Milestone Media characters

Earth-8: Red Circle Comics characters

Earth-9: Tangent Comics

Earth-10: Quality Comics characters: Uncle Sam & the Freedom Fighters, Plastic Man, Max Mercury

Earth-11: DC Animated Universe

Earth-12: Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew

And so on. Have the mainstream DC universe be where everything can mesh, but use the multiverse to do things like use only Fawcett Comics characters like Captain Marvel.

But I don't want things like Earth-R, Earth-C-, and Earth-387.

 

[Kurosawa]

IMO the multiverse should be mostly divided by the several publishers and imprints that form DC.

New Earth: Mainstream DC Universe.

Anti-Matter Universe: Crime Syndicate of Amerika

Earth-Prime: Our Earth

Earth-1: The upcoming Earth-1 graphic novels

Earth-2: Something similar to the pre-Crisis Earth-2

Earth-3: National Comics characters: Batman, Superman, Dr. Fate, Sandman, Hour-Man, etc.

Earth-4: Charlton Comics characters

Earth-5: Fawcett Comics: Captain Marvel, Bulletman, Ibis the Invincible, etc.

Earth-6: All-American Publications characters: Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, etc.

Earth-7: Milestone Media characters

Earth-8: Red Circle Comics characters

Earth-9: Tangent Comics

Earth-10: Quality Comics characters: Uncle Sam & the Freedom Fighters, Plastic Man, Max Mercury

Earth-11: DC Animated Universe

Earth-12: Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew

And so on. Have the mainstream DC universe be where everything can mesh, but use the multiverse to do things like use only Fawcett Comics characters like Captain Marvel.

But I don't want things like Earth-R, Earth-C-, and Earth-387.

Needs to be a classic Silver/Bronze Age Earth-One counterpart. I say the more the merrier and I consider every Elseworlds/Imaginary Story to be it's own Earth.

 

[fifthfiend]

wow, i'm unsubscribing from this, i can't stand the idiotic babbling about a comic book story. :

Sassypostin'

 

[Jordacar]

A big part of why I disliked IDC and IFC was that as far as I could tell a deliberate decision was being made to turn the DCU as a whole into this sort of self-importantly ugly and unpleasant place and as far as I'm concerned OYL was just the culmination of things that had been in the works for a long time.

I think you nailed it right there friend. For the past several years, even when the big DC events have been good (like 52 and Sinestro Corps) they seem to go out of their way to make things as bloody and unpleasant as possible, often at the expense of story, character, or, y'know, fun.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Before Infinite Crisis the only DC book I read was Batman. After I read Infinite Crisis and the various tie ins like OMAC Project and Villains United it really sucked me into the DC Universe. Then they released 52 after IC and that was a really great maxi-series coming out of the event.

Now that the years have passed I'm actually reading more DC Books than I am Marvel now and during that time period I was a pretty huge Marvel zombie.

Also the Blackest Night event had a lot to do with that because that's what really got me into the Green Lantern universe.

Also Geoff Johns writing helped a whole lot. He got me into The Flash.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

On the other hand, Johns, Infinite Crisis, and various other things have gotten me out of the DC universe, for the most part.

 

[Anubis]

Before Infinite Crisis the only DC book I read was Batman. After I read Infinite Crisis and the various tie ins like OMAC Project and Villains United it really sucked me into the DC Universe. Then they released 52 after IC and that was a really great maxi-series coming out of the event.

Now that the years have passed I'm actually reading more DC Books than I am Marvel now and during that time period I was a pretty huge Marvel zombie.

Also the Blackest Night event had a lot to do with that because that's what really got me into the Green Lantern universe.

Also Geoff Johns writing helped a whole lot. He got me into The Flash.

Well then Johnny come lately. This era is for you.

 

[Judge Holden]

Before Infinite Crisis the only DC book I read was Batman. After I read Infinite Crisis and the various tie ins like OMAC Project and Villains United it really sucked me into the DC Universe. Then they released 52 after IC and that was a really great maxi-series coming out of the event.

Now that the years have passed I'm actually reading more DC Books than I am Marvel now and during that time period I was a pretty huge Marvel zombie.

Also the Blackest Night event had a lot to do with that because that's what really got me into the Green Lantern universe.

Also Geoff Johns writing helped a whole lot. He got me into The Flash.

Everything you have just said... is the reason why i do not read DC anymore.

Can't DC have an event without retconning something? Which a few years down the line another writer doesn't like so he then retcons it? Which a few years down the line another writer doesn't like so he then retcons it? Which a few years down the line another writer doesn't like so he then retcons it? Which a few ye...

Yea i think you get the point.

 

[Mystirious]

On the other hand, Johns, Infinite Crisis, and various other things have gotten me out of the DC universe, for the most part.

I buy so few DC comics lately

 

[flash13]

I really liked Infinite Crisis, The only thing I didn't like was Wally West disapearing for a year. At least he came back eventually, but now with Barry back he isn't around that much so he might as well be gone again.

 

[Judge Holden]

If Barry Allen had an interesting personality i wouldn't mind. I'm all for a bit of old school.

But... Barry Allen doesn't have an interesting personality... Wally West does...

It's just blatant bias from the DC editorial.

"This character was the original! He has 50 years of history! That automatically makes him a better character!"

No, it doesn't, actually.

 

[Drz]

Once again people ignore Wally's title tanking and how writers such as Geoff Johns and Mark Waid tried their best, but the DC readers didn't care. Now Johns is giving a shot at Barry, and if the sales prove good, they'll get more titles. Just look at GL title. With the huge success over years from Johns has given us now 3 titles where we can enjoy our favorite Lanterns and whatnot. GL for Hal, Carol, Sinestro fans (among the new characters) with GLC for Kyle, Stewart and Ganthet fans, with Warriors for the Garnder, Kilowog, Arisia fans. It's a win-win.

 

[BrianWilly]

Well no, Wally's title never tanked under Geoff Johns. And Mark Waid's return "tanking" had nothing whatsoever to do with Barry coming back, because they'd already decided to do it by then. We know this because there was already serious discussion about bringing Barry back when they were ****ing up Bart.

And people tend to forget that it took years for the GL line to get to where it is today, and all that editorial wrangling that tossed Kyle back and forth between titles and horrible writing that marred the time before he finally settled down in GLC. I mean, I can't speak for all Wally fans, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to sit through an equivalent Parallax/Countdown event for Wally while DC ****s around trying to stick to a direction for him.

 

[Anubis]

We went over this already Drz. Mark Waid hardly tried his best. I mean, Vagina Monsters? Seriously? And Johns? Johns didn't do anything. When he came back to Flash it was for Flash Rebirth. The book with Wally west tanked because, like most books post infinite Crisis, it f**king sucked. Bad ideas, bad editorial mandates, and I suspect purposeful mishandling lead to bad sales. Wasn't because Wally was the star. It was because the book sucked.