Something needs to be done about the Joker

[Kirk Langstrom]

I can only think of two things:

1) Go totally outside the status quo, and have Joker discover Bats is Bruce Wayne and go from there....

2) Maybe have him fight someone else besides Batman once in awhile? Nightwing, Green Arrow, etc.,...

 

[The Joker]

I can only think of two things:

1) Go totally outside the status quo, and have Joker discover Bats is Bruce Wayne and go from there....

It's been strongly hinted that Joker already knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. Check out 'A Death in the Family'. He just doesn't care. It's Batman that gives him the thrill of the game, not his alter ego.

 

[Rynan]

The same reason he does now, because he's an anarchist in the truest of forms and thinks that life is a joke, sufferings the set up, and death is the punchline.

This is the cancer that is killing The Joker.

 

[The Empire Ape]

Stop the "Hahahahah I'll kill everyone"-Joker and bring back more prankster/trickster elements.

 

[The Demon's Head]

It's been strongly hinted that Joker already knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. Check out 'A Death in the Family'. He just doesn't care. It's Batman that gives him the thrill of the game, not his alter ego.

Actually, I think it would be more interesting if he did something against Bruce Wayne.

 

[BubbaGump]

This is the cancer that is killing The Joker.

How is the Joker being killed? All you have to do is have Dini write more "Sleighride-type" stories, and the Joker will be back on track. I hardly think #663 is a cancer.

 

[Cobblepot]

I realise Emperor Joker was out of the box, and I'm not even sure as it count's as an in continuity story. But it gave an insight into how deluded and crazy Joker is...and with his recent stories in TEC and an upcoming Joker mini by Azzarello and the infamous (but awesome) Secrets. I must say I like what they are doing with the Joker.
Oh and I forget to mention The Man Who Laughs and Morrisons Batman...

BTW, The Joker knows that Bruce Wanye is Batman's alter ego, he just doesn't care. He doesn't hate Bruce (well maybe he does) but he loaths Batman. Destroying or killing Bruce wouldn't be the same to him.

 

[DW4]

I think we'll get a good Joker story soon. We still don't know what his role is in Countdown.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I don't see anything wrong with The Joker. I think the concerns of Rynan and The Demon's Head would be eased by looking at some current comics. This year alone, we've had some fantastic Joker stories. "Sleighride" was probably the best stand-alone story i've read in a monthly comic in YEARS.

And the current storyline with Zatanna has all the makings of a classic Joker story. People have been calling it the best issue of Detective Comics in years, some reviewers even say decades. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I did find it to be a great read, and a perfectly-constructed story.

 

[Rynan]

I don't see anything wrong with The Joker. I think the concerns of Rynan and The Demon's Head would be eased by looking at some current comics. This year alone, we've had some fantastic Joker stories. "Sleighride" was probably the best stand-alone story i've read in a monthly comic in YEARS.

And the current storyline with Zatanna has all the makings of a classic Joker story. People have been calling it the best issue of Detective Comics in years, some reviewers even say decades. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I did find it to be a great read, and a perfectly-constructed story.

Dini deserves a nod of respect and gratitude from me for not trying to shoehorn Harley into every Joker story, though I give "sleighride" a solid "good". Not "great" mind you, but good. A little bit better art probably would've helped it.

But #883....best Detective Comic story in years, decades even? AND IT FEATURES THE JOKER?! That's really crazy man. I guess I should check it out sometime when I get the chance. A good recent story with The Joker...jeez. But then again, Dini has that simplicity with him. He knows how to write evil people without too much clutter in the way.

If it's good, let's hope he sets the bar for the character, so we can get s*** like Hush Returns and Batman 663 as terrible exceptions to an otherwise solid enjoyable villain.

 

[Rynan]

oop

 

[Nepenthes]

Well, I know I don't have very much credibility on these boards because as you can see I have very little posts. But due to this special occasion, I felt compelled to reply. I must say I disagree with the idea that the Joker needs to be redone and that he needs to scary........................mainly due to the fact that is already been done. Unfortunately many people didn't read Batman issue 663 because they were turned off from the prose. And its unfortunate, because people missed out some great Joker work from Grant Morrison.

I read Detective Comics 826 with the joker and found it to be great, Paul Dini certainly has the chacter of the joker down pat in a traditional sense. But I found Grant Morrison's work to be a bit better and more interesting. The dialogue he used in the issue was spot on, and he really tries to give you an idea of what goes on inside that crazy clown's head. And although the super sanity formula was used before in Arkham Asylum, I found it really interesting for Morrison to continue with it. I feel this idea was greatly overlooked by many writers when dealing with the Joker.

MINOR SPOILERS.....................


At the end of the issue the Joker that imerges from his mental metemorphasis is the Joker from Hell. I believe Morrison wanted to get at a more sinister and evil Joker. He wanted to discard/limit the amount of sillyness and flamboyance of the joker (even though these are two traits that he has always had). In fact this is exactly what it appears Christopher Nolan is trying to do with the Joker in The Dark Knight. Quote Heath Ledger, " I think what we are trying to do is not have so much focus on the smile, and have more focus on the eyes." It appears both Nolan and Morrison wanted to show more of what lies beneath this monster, than how he appears and acts on the outside. I find this vision to be very realistic and unique compared to all the other characterizations in the past.

I'm also not saying that I feel the Joker should become some crazy serial killer that just murders people, because that is not really who he is. But I do feel the new joker that Morrison created can be used greatly in the future, if writers continue to follow what he did. My only regret is that I am unsure as to if Morrison will write more stories about the Joker or his issue was just a one shot deal. I mean think about, Grant Morrison arguable one of the best Joker writers, with Andy Kubert as the artist. It's practically money in the bank. Anyone who has seen the splash page of the Joker in the first issue of Batman and Son knows what I'm talking about.

Well...............Thats my two cents on the issue. I respect everyone's opinion but this is how I feel on the subject. I'm now going to prepare my flame shield for the onslaught to come because I am one of the few to actually like issue 663..........................

663 is one of my favorite Batman issues of late, I can't wait to see what Morrison does with the Jokers next appearance. You're right about his reinvention, one of Morrison's stated aims for his Batman run was "to make the Joker soul destroyingly scary again".

 

[Rynan]

You're right about his reinvention, one of Morrison's stated aims for his Batman run was "to make the Joker soul destroyingly scary again".

If by "soul destroyingly scary" you mean poorly written and laughably ridiculous, then he is a paragon of success.

 

[Kraven]

It's been strongly hinted that Joker already knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. Check out 'A Death in the Family'. He just doesn't care. It's Batman that gives him the thrill of the game, not his alter ego.

I was also re-reading the Morrison prose story the other day, and the Joker mentions in his thoughts that Batman is just a poor orphan wanting to be a superhero. That kinda points to him knowing, too.

 

[Lord Thanos]

Grr! For revenge and greed! He hates the Batmans, yes, pwesus.

The Joker does not need reasons to back his actions. He is chaos at its purest form. That is why he commits acts.

He is the Clown Prince of Crime.

true, what would be great is if just for a fleeting momment we a glimpse of a purpose behind what he does(a single page would suffice)we shouldent know what it is but it should be grand yet vauge enough to sugest that theres certaily more to him than weve come to know and expect w(a man trying to find himself through death?,

 

[Telfie]

I was also re-reading the Morrison prose story the other day, and the Joker mentions in his thoughts that Batman is just a poor orphan wanting to be a superhero. That kinda points to him knowing, too.

Yeah, I'm more inclined to believe that Joker does know....but just doesn't care. I mean, the same goes for Gordon. They've both known Batman for years, I'm pretty sure they would come to the realisation that Batman and Bruce Wayne share the same chin.

 

[Joker]

true, what would be great is if just for a fleeting momment we a glimpse of a purpose behind what he does(a single page would suffice)we shouldent know what it is but it should be grand yet vauge enough to sugest that theres certaily more to him than weve come to know and expect w(a man trying to find himself through death?,

They do that on a story by story basis though...he doesnt have some big scheme where everything he does comes together...he gets an idea when he wakes up in the morning, then follows through with it in the most destructive way possible, is stopped, rinse and repeat...

 

[Acid Snowman]

Although I'm against resorting to changing the character completely to breathe new life into him, I think the main strength of the character is you can show so many sides of him, tell so many stories, while keeping the basic formula the same: evil clown criminal obsessed with Batman. He's a versatile character who translates well through the ages; in his initial conception, he was a murderous jewel thief, in the sixties, he was used for comic relief, now he's a manic psychopath with a dark sense of humour and "a taste for theatrics". People who campaign against the Joker being funny are destroying his essence; he is a showman of crime, flying through the wall in a helicopter even if you leave the door open for him, and should be used in that way.

 

[rpenguin]

Recently, I've discovered an appreciation for Dick Tracy villains. They didn't have an obsession with the hero. Their lives didn't revolve around Tracy. He was just an obsticle in their path to wealth, revenge and power. The only things they had for him were hatred and lead.

Why not give the same mindset to The Joker?

It really depends on the writer, but there are many instances where Joker's goal is independent of Batman. (B89, his Winnick appearances, Five Way Revenge, Engleheart's stuff, his one appearance around the time of Knightsend, Kelly's use of Joker (I THINK, I MAY BE WRONG), even Morrison's use of him of late has been independent of Batman)
Batman just ends up interfering.

As for naming villains with alternative mindsets. All Batman's villains are driven by tragedy. I'm pretty sure that's all DC tells their writers; "He was this guy, this happened, now he's this guy. He's bad and here's some of his history." They generally have their own storyline which drives them into crime. Batman's the obstacle. More often than not, I find these days that the "freaks" of Gotham are being used for employ (scarecrow, croc, mr freeze). I'm just stating the standard. Maybe you should disprove it.

If by "soul destroyingly scary" you mean poorly written and laughably ridiculous, then he is a paragon of success.

I really have to disagree. I am a sucker for unnecessarily fancy shmancy english, but I thought he truly captured what's in Joker's noggin: lucid dementia, pretty much.

 

[Rynan]

I really have to disagree. I am a sucker for unnecessarily fancy shmancy english, but I thought he truly captured what's in Joker's noggin: lucid dementia, pretty much.

That also is a problem. That comic was stupidly ridiculous and an insult to it's genre(and artists), but it also stresses something else. Something which also contributed to The Joker's decline as a character.

Why the **** was a Batman comic about The Joker and he didn't do anything?

Do we really need to know his motivations? No. Do we need to know what goes on his mind? No. Criminal psychology in comics is a parlor trick used by prissy writers. Truly, it's like a two legged mule: It's annoying and it doesn't help with anything.

How about instead of discussing his motivations, you actually make him do something other than introspection. This is why I suggested greed, power and revenge as motivations. With goals like that, there's no real need for examination and then we can get to the business of a master criminal, robbery and murder. Motivation or no motivation, challenge writers to actually make a character do something in a comic than express their armchair psycho-babble.

 

[BubbaGump]

Yes, he is special. So special in fact he's now a cliche'.

What would you have him commit crime for?

This is why I suggested greed, power and revenge as motivations. With goals like that, there's no real need for examination and then we can get to the business of a master criminal, robbery and murder.

Let me get this straight. Joker is so special he is cliche, so you want him to have regular motivations such as greed and revenge to fix him.

 

[rpenguin]

That also is a problem. That comic was stupidly ridiculous and an insult to it's genre(and artists), but it also stresses something else. Something which also contributed to The Joker's decline as a character.

Upon a fresh reading, it's really not SO ridiculous. It's written like a detailed novel or possibly a script. Morrison has a flair for language; I like to think he was scripting this and simply ended up novelizing it out of excitement. It seems very genuine.

Why the **** was a Batman comic about The Joker and he didn't do anything?

Reread it, bud. It's no more Joker-focused than Five Way Revenge or hundreds of other published Batman/Tec comics. What about Year One? Are we going to start bashing a classic cause it's from Gordon's POV? Ridiculous. This is basically a modern Five Way Revenge story and Batman pieces together the clues and tries to stop Joker.

Do we really need to know his motivations? No. Do we need to know what goes on his mind? No. Criminal psychology in comics is a parlor trick used by prissy writers. Truly, it's like a two legged mule: It's annoying and it doesn't help with anything.

Morrison was trying to establish his view of the Joker which collects the entire continuity of the character. The criminal psychology text was used to establish it in some real context. Just to state it: Joker reinvents himself every so often. It's not even arbitrarily mentioned, it's what this entire story is about! He's destroying his past and preparing to build a new future. The only real insight we get into Joker is what makes him laugh (which I found CHILLING and perfectly fitting) and his opinion on Batman. He does internally consider some needless analytical dialogue with Batman which is a clear homage to what Alan Moore established (laced with cosmic arch nemesis BS), but Morrison even throws that out as if to say Joker is bored with it; the past, once again, is stale. Instead we get one of the best ways a writer has made built Joker's attitude toward Batman: "He simply wants to maim Batman/lose his dignity in the dirt/give in to chaos. He wants the goddamn Batman to get the Goddamn joke."
That's laced with all kinds of possible deeper interpretations but at the very least it isolates that crazy stuff Denny O'Neil was obsessed with. i.e, cosmic enemies destined to be at odds forever bla bla bla.

How about instead of discussing his motivations, you actually make him do something other than introspection. This is why I suggested greed, power and revenge as motivations. With goals like that, there's no real need for examination and then we can get to the business of a master criminal, robbery and murder. Motivation or no motivation, challenge writers to actually make a character do something in a comic than express their armchair psycho-babble.

It was a waiting game for the Joker but he technically he had the cogs in motion throughout the entire story. His plan was always proceeding. I truly think that all the introspection you see, were really objective examinations of the Joker used to establish him as a psyche in flux and on the verge of a new change. I'm really unsure if there's any motivation behind the Joker besides complete chaos.

I've kind of ranted here, but I personally hold Morrison in high regard and feel you've misinterpreted things a bit.