Southern Flag Opinion.

[Wylie Times]

So now the flag MUST mean "slavery, murder and oppression"? Just because it's occassionally been used by people with those beliefs and actions?

Not occasionally, pretty damn regularly. As I said the whole "souther heritage" argument is fairly recent and it being used as a symbol of the confederacy and states rights was pretty much just for a 4 year period. For well over 100 years it was mostly used as a symbol of White Supremacy, and to the victims and their decedents it does mean that.

Because it's absurd to suggest that simply because a portion of the population uses it as such that this is the only meaning it can have. That's just a silly, illogical way to approach things.

I'm not saying that ultimately it's the only meaning it can have to anybody anywhere, but to certain groups that IS the only meaning it will ever have and with good reason.

But again.

The flag is used by others than just the KKK, bigots, and other ignorant, misguided, or hate filled people. These other people do not use it to showcase bigotry, racism, and hatred, but as a symbol of their culture.

Do a few bad apples spoil an entire barrel?

For the most part that's been a very recent thing also. Keep in mind we're talking about the south. While there were many white southerners who fought fought and died in the struggle for civil rights the majority of white southerners were AGAINST desegregation, and many of them flew the Confederate flag at rallies and demonstrations....These days you can say only very few fly that flag with intentions of hate, but it's a recent thing that it can even be argued that it's not a symbol of white superiority.

By the way, these groups also use OTHER elements of life and society, like bedsheets, robes, the color white, red, etc. Should we demonize those things too, simply because some ignorant, bigoted idiots use them in doing wrong?

You brought up burning crosses. Should we stop using the symbol of a cross because some idiots burn them?

Should we stop using ropes and tying knots because some people used them to lynch?

Should I stop listening to certain country songs because a KKK member might play it at their rally?

It strikes me as ignorant to suggest that because evil people use something every so often, that the symbol itself, which was never intended to be evil, is now evil, and must be seen as such.

You want to get into the nazi swastika nonsense, go ahead, I've had this argument before.

It's all about context, people. It's always been about context.

That said. I understand that some people may see these things and only remember the negative elements of them. If a certain group sees something as a symbol of hate or intolerance, fine. I understand that. I understand that people who look at the flag can get certain stereotypes in mind.

Do you know how I got over thinking "NAZIS!" everytime someone said "Germany?" I learned more about Germany, so that that wasn't one of my only points of reference. Point being, the associations one has with the a symbol or idea, and how much they dwell on those things, is kind of on them. Recognizing that a symbol has ties with something does not make these stereotypes you're all going on and on about an all encompassing social truth.

The difference between the confederate flag and the examples you gave is quite simply that there are positives to draw from the other things. For blacks in the south there is NOTHING positive to draw from the confederate flag and it's history, nothing but pain and oppression.

Finally: Hate, bigotry, and intolerance are not illegal. It is an American's right to have and express their beliefs, whatever they may be. That means Americans are free to fly a flag, worship Satan, hate blacks, whatever they want to believe. They are also free to be proud of their state's history, even if that history has some sordid elements.

I'm not saying people can't use the flag privately, if they want to that's their right. But if you're going to use symbols you need to know the entire history of it and be aware that you MIGHT be offending someone and they MIGHT have good reason to BE offended.

My main thing is I wish people who wear the flag would stop pretending that it doesn't have a much longer history as a symbol of hate and oppression than it does as anything else, and the flag should NOT be flown at government buildings that should represent ALL the people of the state.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

This is true, but the American flag doesn't invoke the same images as the confederate flag does. The Civil War was about economics and state rights but slavery WAS a big part of it as the free labor was a big part of southern and border states economy. The Decedents of slaves can draw SOME positive imagery from the US flag (and even that is a very recent thing) but there's nothing to draw from the image of the confederate flag but slavery, murder, and oppression. As I said hate groups have REALLY gone out of their way to make that flag synonymous with being anti black.

I know, and have said that myself at least a few times. :l

I'm just saying gotta play fair. lol

 

[The Guard]

Not occasionally, pretty damn regularly.

Heh.

Who the hell quantifies "occasionally"?

About as regularly as non racists/bigots fly the flag, I should think.

As I said the whole "southern heritage" argument is fairly recent and it being used as a symbol of the confederacy and states rights was pretty much just for a 4 year period. For well over 100 years it was mostly used as a symbol of White Supremacy, and to the victims and their decedents it does mean that.

No. That four year period ended, but do you really think people in the South stopped resenting what had happened with the North? I think not. The idea of the flag as representative as states rights and a symbol of the confederacy went on long after the confederacy was over.

So it is your opinion that people who claim it represents Southern heritage only mean "The Southern heritage of that four years?"

That makes very little sense.

The Southern heritage aspect of the flag is constant. The flag clearly is, and has been, a part of Southern history and heritage, including both good and bad elements. It's a valid argument to make.

I'm not saying that ultimately it's the only meaning it can have to anybody anywhere, but to certain groups that IS the only meaning it will ever have and with good reason.

Fair enough. I agree. And I addressed that. It sucks to be those people. I hope one day they can move past that.

For the most part that's been a very recent thing also. Keep in mind we're talking about the south. While there were many white southerners who fought fought and died in the struggle for civil rights the majority of white southerners were AGAINST desegregation, and many of them flew the Confederate flag at rallies and demonstrations....These days you can say only very few fly that flag with intentions of hate, but it's a recent thing that it can even be argued that it's not a symbol of white superiority.

Now you are apparently suggesting that all people who lived through this era are simply evil because they grew up with certain socially inherent beliefs. Hmm. That would also make the Northerners who held such beliefs, and flew the American flag, evil. Should this flag also be done away with?

It is SOMETIMES a symbol used by those who believe in white superiority, and so what? Does that actually inherently mean whites ARE superior? Does the flag itself suggest this?

The difference between the confederate flag and the examples you gave is quite simply that there are positives to draw from the other things. For blacks in the south there is NOTHING positive to draw from the confederate flag and it's history, nothing but pain and oppression.

There are positives AND negatives to draw from the other things. Ask anyone with a knowledge of religious history about the symbol and meaning of a cross, Christianity, etc across the world. Historically speaking, it's not been all positive.

So it's all about what blacks want now? What about people who like the flag simply because that's been their Southern symbol for so long, similar to our American flag?

I'm not saying people can't use the flag privately, if they want to that's their right. But if you're going to use symbols you need to know the entire history of it and be aware that you MIGHT be offending someone and they MIGHT have good reason to BE offended.

Fair enough.

I agree with you on these points. But that doesn't equal "Let's have the USA get rid of the flag".

My main thing is I wish people who wear the flag would stop pretending that it doesn't have a much longer history as a symbol of hate and oppression than it does as anything else, and the flag should NOT be flown at government buildings that should represent ALL the people of the state.

Since when have people pretended this? Where was this moment in history when people as a whole pretended that the flag does not have associations with negative stereotypes and history?

 

[Wylie Times]

No. That four year period ended, but do you really think people in the South stopped resenting what had happened with the North? I think not. The idea of the flag as representative as states rights and a symbol of the confederacy went on long after the confederacy was over.

Of course, there was resent and you know what a lot of those folks who resented the loss did? They joined the Klan and and spent their nights intimidating republicans in the south and murdering blacks while waving flags, one of which was the confederate flag.

Let me also point out that while the flag was a symbol for states rights one of the rights they were so fiercely defending was the right to enslave blacks.

So it is your opinion that people who claim it represents Southern heritage only mean "The Southern heritage of that four years?"

That makes very little sense.

The Southern heritage aspect of the flag is constant. The flag clearly is, and has been, a part of Southern history and heritage, including both good and bad elements. It's a valid argument to make.

No that isn't my opinion if it was I would have clearly stated it as such. I was stating that the flag has a MUCH longer history of being a symbol for white Supremacy and Oppression.

Fair enough. I agree. And I addressed that. It sucks to be those people. I hope one day they can move past that.

It's hard to move past something that still goes on from time to time. The whole "sucks to be those people" comment speaks directly to my earlier comment about empathy.

Now you are apparently suggesting that all people who lived through this era are simply evil because they grew up with certain socially inherent beliefs. Hmm. That would also make the Northerners who held such beliefs, and flew the American flag, evil. Should this flag also be done away with?

It is SOMETIMES a symbol used by those who believe in white superiority, and so what? Does that actually inherently mean whites ARE superior? Does the flag itself suggest this?

At no point did I say or imply that the all the people in that era were EVIL, I went of my way to point out that whites fought and died for civil rights movement, I said the majority of whites in the south back then supported segregation and while demonstrating their support would often fly the confederate flag.

And no OFTEN is that symbol used by those who believe in white superiority, that is not to say that all people who use it believe in such but historically it has more often than not been used by bigots. No it doesn't inherently mean whites are superior but you seem to be ignoring the FACT that there is a LONG history of violence and oppression against blacks in the south and that flag was often waved proudly by the ones committing those acts.

There are positives AND negatives to draw from the other things. Ask anyone with a knowledge of religious history about the symbol and meaning of a cross, Christianity, etc across the world. Historically speaking, it's not been all positive.

So it's all about what blacks want now? What about people who like the flag simply because that's been their Southern symbol for so long, similar to our American flag?

That was kind of the point I was making, that those other things have positives and negatives.

No it's not all about what black people want, but if you're going to claim that the flag is about southern heritage and the south has a very large black population that has roots just as deep wouldn't it make sense to pick a flag that ALL southerner could take pride in? There are other confederate flags to choose from why choose the one that has such history of hate and violence connected to it?

I agree with you on these points. But that doesn't equal "Let's have the USA get rid of the flag".

and at no point did I say the US should get rid of the flag, I simply said the flag should not be flying on government flag poles.

Since when have people pretended this? Where was this moment in history when people as a whole pretended that the flag does not have associations with negative stereotypes and history?

Uhmm for the past decade or so? "the flag has nothing to do with racism or slavery" is a denial of parts of it's past.

If you choose to respond to this post please try and do so without putting words into my mouth or twisting my words.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Whenever. If it was overall appropriate, I'd say it could be considered. I don't know that this would be an appropriate state image due to its religious nature, and frankly, to show a religous image like that...that might be a no no to a lot of people. Dunno.

I used "tasteful" in a sentence, and directly tied it to not looking like the nazi emblem. Do the math.

I see. So you're guilty of what, exactly, by acting innocent about using a worldwide symbol, as long as you're not using it to say "I believe in what the Nazis did"?

Why would you be unable to act innocent?

1.) The Confederate flag isn't "tasteful" because it does represent to people ideas of rebellion and racism. It does not matter if that was the intended purpose or not.

2.) You are naive if you believe that popular opinion doesn't matter when we're talking about using a flag in a public (government) capacity.

3.) Both of those points are trumped by the still remaining fact that it was the flag of a REBEL COUNTRY. The only impact it has on US history or American heritage is that it was a country that we were at war with.

 

[Hound55]

I had an idea that the buddhist version of the "swastika" which represents peace was a mirror image of the one the Nazis used and went the other way.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Majic Walrus]

I had an idea that the buddhist version of the "swastika" which represents peace was a mirror image of the one the Nazis used and went the other way.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

There are actually many many different kinds of swastikas but most of them are in fact "reversed" from the Nazi symbol.

 

[xisaacx]

Yes

 

[The Battousai]

swastika

Nazi party.
A swastika?
Nazi party
Nazi emblem
swastika

Nazi emblem
swastika
Nazi party

Nazi swastika
"NAZIS!"

Nazi emblem.
Nazis

swastikas
Nazi symbol.

I WANT MAH SCALPS!

 

[Majic Walrus]

 

[Metamorpho1977]

You know what the south has also brought us? Michael Vick.

I want you all to think about that.

He was actually born and raised in the Yankee part of Virginia.

 

[Majic Walrus]

He was actually born and raised in the Yankee part of Virginia.

What part of Vriginia is Yankee?

 

[The Guard]

Of course, there was resent and you know what a lot of those folks who resented the loss did? They joined the Klan and and spent their nights intimidating republicans in the south and murdering blacks while waving flags, one of which was the confederate flag.

So again...please clarify: because a lot of idiots went out and did idiotic things while waving this flag, the flag becomes a symbol of evil, and must be seen as such overall, despite its use by all the people who didn't use it for evil purposes?

Because if you don't believe this, there's no reason to demonize this flag so much, as it was the actions of a few who apparently "tainted" it for some.

Let me also point out that while the flag was a symbol for states rights one of the rights they were so fiercely defending was the right to enslave blacks.

Ok...is there anything inherent in the design and appearance of the flag that suggests that slavery is right?

Sounds more and more to me like your issue is with the South and its history, not the flag itself.

No that isn't my opinion if it was I would have clearly stated it as such. I was stating that the flag has a MUCH longer history of being a symbol for white Supremacy and Oppression.

I see.

Much longer history of being a symbol of white supremacy and oppression than what, exactly?

It being a symbol of the South in general? Do you have any way to measure who used the flag, and how evil they were, or whether the flag has inspired more hope and compassion VS evil over the years?

At no point did I say or imply that the all the people in that era were EVIL, I went of my way to point out that whites fought and died for civil rights movement, I said the majority of whites in the south back then supported segregation and while demonstrating their support would often fly the confederate flag.

Fair enough.

You did, mind you, go out of your way to talk about majorities.

Do you find the idea of segregation evil?

Do you believe that those who engage in it are evil?

Or do you believe there's something wrong with segregation, and those who practice it?

And no OFTEN is that symbol used by those who believe in white superiority, that is not to say that all people who use it believe in such but historically it has more often than not been used by bigots. No it doesn't inherently mean whites are superior but you seem to be ignoring the FACT that there is a LONG history of violence and oppression against blacks in the south and that flag was often waved proudly by the ones committing those acts.

Look. Can you prove that historically most people who have used this flag are bigots?

Where, pray tell, have I given any indication that I do not understand the long history of violence and oppression? Have I suggested it doesn't exist? No.

I'm simply saying the ACTIONS are what you should be considering evil. Not a piece of cloth that people who committed these actions misguidedly used. Again, they used MANY symbols, not just this one.

That was kind of the point I was making, that those other things have positives and negatives.

Actually, the point you made was this:

"The difference between the confederate flag and the examples you gave is quite simply that there are positives to draw from the other things."

You said nothing about negatives for these other symbols.

If you agree that these other symbols also have negatives, you will hopefully see the folly in calling for something like this flag to be abandoned, but being okay with crosses still being used. The rope was an extreme example, I'll grant, but an example nontheless.

No it's not all about what black people want, but if you're going to claim that the flag is about southern heritage and the south has a very large black population that has roots just as deep wouldn't it make sense to pick a flag that ALL southerner could take pride in? There are other confederate flags to choose from why choose the one that has such history of hate and violence connected to it?

See...you say it's not about what black people want, but obviously many here think that the flag, despite the fact that it's a point of pride for many Southerners, should be abandoned because black people or those who identify with slaves might find it offensive in some capacity. Doesn't that strike you as a bit one sided?

Why hasn't another flag been chosen? Probably because the other confederate flags, quite frankly, tend to suck. That's why they never made it long in the first place. Many of them had specific meanings for being created, existed in minute timeframes, and they were abandoned for a reason. Many of them just looked like the US flag in design, were poor for use in military environments, and some of them were just plain boring.

This flag is the flag the South adopted. None have lasted as long as this one. It's about tradition, obviously

You say "history of hate and violence", but seem not to mind the fact that the American flag shares this same history in many respects, as does the cross. Again, should we abandon those symbols? Would you be in favor of abandoning these symbols that have had atrocities and evil things done while they were being wielded?

and at no point did I say the US should get rid of the flag, I simply said the flag should not be flying on government flag poles.

I never said you said this. I made a very direct reference to the meaning of this thread's poll.

Uhmm for the past decade or so? "the flag has nothing to do with racism or slavery" is a denial of parts of it's past.

While I suppose it's possible, I have never heard anyone say this. Ever. Nor have I seen the government take this stance. What are you basing this on?

If you choose to respond to this post please try and do so without putting words into my mouth or twisting my words.

Sigh.

When I say "You said", and then follow it with something, that is me putting words in your mouth. Have I done that here and been wrong?

When I say "So it is your opinion that" and follow that with something, ending the sentence with a question mark, that is me asking a question to clarify the meaning of what you have written.

When I say "Now you are apparently suggesting" and follow this with what I believe your statement means in context, this is me offering a theory about an idea, not putting words in your mouth.

Anything that is my idea that I do not attribute to you directly is not putting words in your mouth.

If I ask to clarify your positions, it's because your positions, other than not liking the confederate flag's use, are somewhat vague.

1.) The Confederate flag isn't "tasteful" because it does represent to people ideas of rebellion and racism. It does not matter if that was the intended purpose or not.

"Tasteful" is sort of relative. And I could have sworn we were discussing the swastika being used in the Maine flag. Not the confederate flag.

Many of you seem to be confusing what the flag actually is intended to represent with what you attribute it to represent, which seems to stem from your feelings about the South and its history in general. I find that interesting.

2.) You are naive if you believe that popular opinion doesn't matter when we're talking about using a flag in a public (government) capacity.

Did I suggest that popular opinion doesn't matter?

Again. Why would someone be "guilty" of something by using a worldwide symbol in a context that is not associated with the nazi party? It's like asking a Christian to be ashamed of the cross in certain situations.

3.) Both of those points are trumped by the still remaining fact that it was the flag of a REBEL COUNTRY. The only impact it has on US history or American heritage is that it was a country that we were at war with.

K...but again, this is all relative, a lot of Southerners would disagree with you, and we were discussing the swastika and its possible future uses.

The confederate flag is still flying because of Southern tradition, not because someone recently said "Hey, let's come up with a new flag to represent the South".

 

[Majic Walrus]

The confederate flag is still flying because of tradition, not because someone recently said "Hey, let's come up with a new flag to represent the South".

The Confederate flag is still flying because of "tradition" but that doesn't make it right.

 

[The Guard]

Right and wrong are somewhat relative in this case.

It's a piece of cloth with a design on it.

What you're essentially saying is that bad things have happened in the South's past that have this flag associated with it. You can say that about several symbols, should we also abandon them? Changing the flag won't change the South's past, nor will it appreciably likely change the South's present or future.

 

[The Battousai]

This conversation reminds me of South Park

Anyone remember this episode?

 

[SuperFerret]

Yes. Maybe the solution is to change the colors of the confederate flag to match Jamaica's (which is of similar design).

 

[Majic Walrus]

Right and wrong are somewhat relative in this case.

It's a piece of cloth with a design on it.

What you're essentially saying is that bad things have happened in the South's past that have this flag associated with it. You can say that about several symbols, should we also abandon them? Changing the flag won't change the South's past, nor will it appreciably likely change the South's present or future.

Right and wrong are ALWAYS relative.

I'm making no statements to the right or wrong nature of the flag. I'm also not talking about "abandoning" a symbol or trying to ignore the past or future.

My only point is that we as a country should NOT use the flag of an ENEMY COUNTRY to represent any part of it.

 

[SuGarRush]

Right and wrong are ALWAYS relative.

My only point is that we as a country should NOT use the flag of an ENEMY COUNTRY to represent any part of it.

I was going to jump in and join the debate until I saw the first sentence here. And then I realized that you and I have such incredibly different perspectives, there is no point in even trying to reason this out with you. So I simply address this in general.

A long time ago, some people decided to outlaw what was essentially at that time, an integral piece of very expensive equipment.
This is the equivalent of saying "Hey, remember that tractor you just paid 300k for? Yeah it's illegal now, we have decided to outlaw it, oh and we're not reimbursing you or anything, you just have to suck it up." "Oh and by the way, we don't care what you guys want down their in the South, this isn't a country based on states rights anymore, it's based on a strong centralized megagovernment,"

And then there was war.

Was slavery right? Of course not. BUT, this wasn't a matter of the South not wanting to give up their "free labor", There was nothing free about that labor. Slaves were expensive and valuable property, which is why, despite what lies they'll teach you in history class, the majority of slaves were not beaten, were fed regularly, and had a roof over their heads with clothes to wear. If you paid a fortune for a champion racehores, would you starve it and beat it? Only if you were a moron. (and some of the slave-owners were morons) But the majority of people wouldn't.

So what we really have is a huge government, who doesn't really care what this country is SUPPOSED TO BE. They no longer feared the people, nor respected their wishes. They decided to simply outlaw certain behaviors and dictate like gods on Olympus. And a few brave souls stood forward and said, "hey, you know what? This isn't America, this isn't what it's supposed to be!"

And when no one listened, and they were mocked, they decided to leave.

Then the President threw a hissy fit and started a war. (And don't give me that South shot first crap. Who antagonized the whole situation at Ft. Sumter? We sure didn't send Southern troops to the heart of the North. Lincoln spoiled for a quick fight and underestimated the competition.)

The flag isn't about owning blacks. The war wasn't about slavery. It was about states rights and behaving according to what this country is SUPPOSED to be, according to the Constitution and the will of the founding fathers. When the Yankees lost sight of that, what reason did we have to stick around?

The Southern Flag is about pride and about honoring a handful of men who did the right thing, stood up for their values and beliefs, when the majority of the country had forgotten what America was supposed to stand for.



Of course....at this point in America, things are starting to sound awfully similar...

 

[The Battousai]

A long time ago, some people decided to outlaw what was essentially at that time, an integral piece of very expensive equipment.

You mean slaves? OH NOES - we can't treat people like property anymore!

This is the equivalent of saying "Hey, remember that tractor you just paid 300k for? Yeah it's illegal now, we have decided to outlaw it, oh and we're not reimbursing you or anything, you just have to suck it up." "Oh and by the way, we don't care what you guys want down their in the South, this isn't a country based on states rights anymore, it's based on a strong centralized megagovernment,"

If that's what you call it back then, I can't wait to hear what you think the government has been for decades now

And then there was war.

Was slavery right? Of course not. BUT, this wasn't a matter of the South not wanting to give up their "free labor", There was nothing free about that labor. Slaves were expensive and valuable property, which is why, despite what lies they'll teach you in history class, the majority of slaves were not beaten, were fed regularly, and had a roof over their heads with clothes to wear. If you paid a fortune for a champion racehores, would you starve it and beat it? Only if you were a moron. (and some of the slave-owners were morons) But the majority of people wouldn't.

So, basically, slavery is wrong when the people are treated badly, but not when they aren't as if being property that can be bought and sold isn't a violation of human rights or anything.

So what we really have is a huge government, who doesn't really care what this country is SUPPOSED TO BE. They no longer feared the people, nor respected their wishes. They decided to simply outlaw certain behaviors and dictate like gods on Olympus. And a few brave souls stood forward and said, "hey, you know what? This isn't America, this isn't what it's supposed to be!"

You're just the Hyperbole King, aren't you?

And when no one listened, and they were mocked, they decided to leave.

Then the President threw a hissy fit and started a war. (And don't give me that South shot first crap. Who antagonized the whole situation at Ft. Sumter? We sure didn't send Southern troops to the heart of the North. Lincoln spoiled for a quick fight and underestimated the competition.)

The flag isn't about owning blacks. The war wasn't about slavery. It was about states rights

What do you mean by "states' rights", exactly?

and behaving according to what this country is SUPPOSED to be, according to the Constitution and the will of the founding fathers.

Explain?

When the Yankees lost sight of that, what reason did we have to stick around?

The Southern Flag is about pride and about honoring a handful of men who did the right thing, stood up for their values and beliefs, when the majority of the country had forgotten what America was supposed to stand for.

You say this over and over again without clarifying what you mean.

Of course....at this point in America, things are starting to sound awfully similar...

:facepalm

 

[Majic Walrus]

I was going to jump in and join the debate until I saw the first sentence here. And then I realized that you and I have such incredibly different perspectives, there is no point in even trying to reason this out with you. So I simply address this in general.

FYI, that's a dick thing to say. You refuse to even attempt a reasonable debate with me because we differing points of view? Who exactly would you debate with?

A long time ago, some people decided to outlaw what was essentially at that time, an integral piece of very expensive equipment.
This is the equivalent of saying "Hey, remember that tractor you just paid 300k for? Yeah it's illegal now, we have decided to outlaw it, oh and we're not reimbursing you or anything, you just have to suck it up." "Oh and by the way, we don't care what you guys want down their in the South, this isn't a country based on states rights anymore, it's based on a strong centralized megagovernment,"

And then there was war.

Was slavery right? Of course not. BUT, this wasn't a matter of the South not wanting to give up their "free labor", There was nothing free about that labor. Slaves were expensive and valuable property, which is why, despite what lies they'll teach you in history class, the majority of slaves were not beaten, were fed regularly, and had a roof over their heads with clothes to wear. If you paid a fortune for a champion racehores, would you starve it and beat it? Only if you were a moron. (and some of the slave-owners were morons) But the majority of people wouldn't.

So what we really have is a huge government, who doesn't really care what this country is SUPPOSED TO BE. They no longer feared the people, nor respected their wishes. They decided to simply outlaw certain behaviors and dictate like gods on Olympus. And a few brave souls stood forward and said, "hey, you know what? This isn't America, this isn't what it's supposed to be!"

And when no one listened, and they were mocked, they decided to leave.

They decided to secede from the union and separate themselves into a DIFFERENT country.

Then the President threw a hissy fit and started a war. (And don't give me that South shot first crap. Who antagonized the whole situation at Ft. Sumter? We sure didn't send Southern troops to the heart of the North. Lincoln spoiled for a quick fight and underestimated the competition.)

The flag isn't about owning blacks. The war wasn't about slavery. It was about states rights and behaving according to what this country is SUPPOSED to be, according to the Constitution and the will of the founding fathers. When the Yankees lost sight of that, what reason did we have to stick around?

The Southern Flag is about pride and about honoring a handful of men who did the right thing, stood up for their values and beliefs, when the majority of the country had forgotten what America was supposed to stand for.



Of course....at this point in America, things are starting to sound awfully similar...

I never ever ever ever ever have said that the Confederate flag "stands for" slavery. In popular culture it does represent slavery but that is neither here nor there. The reason that the flag should not be flown in an official capacity is because it was the flag of an ENEMY nation.

Go ahead and rationalize that the "south was right" if you want to, that's fine. You might even believe that the south was right. That's fine too. However the south did not win the war. That is to say that the Confederate States of America did not win the war the United States of America did. So the flag is still a symbol of rebellion against United States of America. You just can't argue that.

Please please please tell me how rebellion against the US is something that should be symbolized on flags of the United States of America.

 

[Nirvana]

Every time I see a Confederate Flag I laugh.

 

[BestGirl]

Was slavery right? Of course not. BUT, this wasn't a matter of the South not wanting to give up their "free labor", There was nothing free about that labor. Slaves were expensive and valuable property, which is why, despite what lies they'll teach you in history class, the majority of slaves were not beaten, were fed regularly, and had a roof over their heads with clothes to wear. If you paid a fortune for a champion racehores, would you starve it and beat it? Only if you were a moron. (and some of the slave-owners were morons) But the majority of people wouldn't.

Have you ever read any slave memoirs or stories from people who visited slave-owning areas? They tell a very different story.

Also, the Confederate Constitution devotes its Article IV to the question of slavery, and South Carolina's Declaration of Independence explicitly lists the marginalization of slavery as one of its main grievances:

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

 

[Wylie Times]

So again...please clarify: because a lot of idiots went out and did idiotic things while waving this flag, the flag becomes a symbol of evil, and must be seen as such overall, despite its use by all the people who didn't use it for evil purposes?

Because if you don't believe this, there's no reason to demonize this flag so much, as it was the actions of a few who apparently "tainted" it for some.

I said in my earlier post that I feel the meanings of symbols change greatly over time. My initial response to you was about you saying:

"To look at this conferadte flag itself and say "Wow. That means "slavery and racism and evil" and nothing else" is absurd to me."

If you're black odds are that flag does ONLY mean that to you and understandably so given that for so many years that flag was waved by those who committed acts of hate and violence towards them.

Ok...is there anything inherent in the design and appearance of the flag that suggests that slavery is right?

Sounds more and more to me like your issue is with the South and its history, not the flag itself.

Just so we're clear....We can all agree that the Civil War was fought because the southern states felt their rights were being taken away right? The primary right they were trying to protect was the right to own slaves. I know the civil war wasn't JUST about slavery but it wasn't a minor issue that just happened to be a part of a much bigger thing. The Flag is tied to slavery and it's not like it's some LOOSE association.

I see.

Much longer history of being a symbol of white supremacy and oppression than what, exactly?

It being a symbol of the South in general? Do you have any way to measure who used the flag, and how evil they were, or whether the flag has inspired more hope and compassion VS evil over the years?

That flag HAS been used more as a symbol for those things than "states rights" or "Southern Heritage".

It's been used widely in the south pretty much since it was created, the VAST majority of that the KKK (which from it's creation in 1864 to 1924 had a membership between 500,000 - 4,000,000) was using it and the flag was regularly flown during the days of Jim Crow (which lasted from 1876 - 1965 give or take a few years). That flag has inspired more fear than anything over the years.

Fair enough.

You did, mind you, go out of your way to talk about majorities.

Do you find the idea of segregation evil?

Do you believe that those who engage in it are evil?

Or do you believe there's something wrong with segregation, and those who practice it?


Look. Can you prove that historically most people who have used this flag are bigots?

This is why I brought up majorities. The reality of it is the majority of whites in the south WERE bigots for a good 100 year period, of course there were whites who weren't bigots and fought alongside blacks and others for truly equal rights, but those fine folks were in the minority. Equal rights for blacks in the south was fought FIERCELY by the majority of whites in the south and when doing so they would OFTEN wave the confederate flag. If the people doing that were in the minority it wouldn't have taken nearly 100 years for Jim Crow to be ended the south.

Where, pray tell, have I given any indication that I do not understand the long history of violence and oppression? Have I suggested it doesn't exist? No

.

You never suggested that it didn't exist, but you seem to be either downplaying or unaware of how wide spread it was. As I said most (not all) whites in the south were bigots for a good 100 period, they accepted and protected Jim Crow laws and when defending those laws they often would hold up the confederate flag.

I'm simply saying the ACTIONS are what you should be considering evil. Not a piece of cloth that people who committed these actions misguidedly used. Again, they used MANY symbols, not just this one.

As I said before the meaning of symbols can change over time depending on the actions of those who display it.

Yes they did use other symbols and all of those are looks at by blacks with fear and contempt..Burning crosses, nooses, that white cross thing used by the KKK, AND the confederate flag.

Actually, the point you made was this:

"The difference between the confederate flag and the examples you gave is quite simply that there are positives to draw from the other things."

You said nothing about negatives for these other symbols.

If you agree that these other symbols also have negatives, you will hopefully see the folly in calling for something like this flag to be abandoned, but being okay with crosses still being used. The rope was an extreme example, I'll grant, but an example nontheless.

I never called for the flag to be wholly abandoned. I said that if they're going to continue to say that it's about Southern Heritage and don't want all the controversy then they should pick a flag that ALL southerners can take pride in.

See...you say it's not about what black people want, but obviously many here think that the flag, despite the fact that it's a point of pride for many Southerners, should be abandoned because black people or those who identify with slaves might find it offensive in some capacity. Doesn't that strike you as a bit one sided?

I'm going to say again, I don't care if private citizens want to fly that flag, it's their right under the first amendment. I don't agree that the flag should be flown at government buildings because anything flying from those flag poles should represent ALL of the people of that state, not just some of them. It's much less about "southern pride" and much more about "white southern pride" and if that's the case cool, just call it as it is.

Why hasn't another flag been chosen? Probably because the other confederate flags, quite frankly, tend to suck. That's why they never made it long in the first place. Many of them had specific meanings for being created, existed in minute timeframes, and they were abandoned for a reason. Many of them just looked like the US flag in design, were poor for use in military environments, and some of them were just plain boring.

So then it comes down to how cool the flag looks instead of what it represents? All those other flags can represent the souths heritage and don't have near as much negativity connected to it's past use. The flag most often used is a battle flag, after the Civil War the only battles waged under that flag was the battle against civil rights for blacks.....well that an WW2 but that was a still a short period of time compared to all other stuff that went on while that flag was waved.

You say "history of hate and violence", but seem not to mind the fact that the American flag shares this same history in many respects, as does the cross. Again, should we abandon those symbols? Would you be in favor of abandoning these symbols that have had atrocities and evil things done while they were being wielded?

The American flag hasn't exactly been a point of pride for the bulk of the black community either until recently. I'm not Christian so I could care less about the cross or what religious symbolism gets used in churches that I don't got into very often, I don't agree with it being used in government buildings though. I'm saying again that I never said the confederate flag should be abandoned, just not used in government buildings and that the vast majority of blacks see it as a symbol of racism and oppression and understandably so.

While I suppose it's possible, I have never heard anyone say this. Ever. Nor have I seen the government take this stance. What are you basing this on?

Various news reports, interviews, web sites regarding the flag. The debate over this flag has been going on since the mid 90's.

 

[The Guard]

I said in my earlier post that I feel the meanings of symbols change greatly over time.

You didn't answer my question, though.

So again...please clarify: because a lot of idiots went out and did idiotic things while waving this flag, the flag becomes a symbol of evil, and must be seen as such overall, despite its use by all the people who didn't use it for evil purposes?

My initial response to you was about you saying:

"To look at this confederate flag itself and say "Wow. That means "slavery and racism and evil" and nothing else" is absurd to me."

If you're black odds are that flag does ONLY mean that to you and understandably so given that for so many years that flag was waved by those who committed acts of hate and violence towards them.

Again.

I thought it wasn't all about blacks.

I thought we were considering all points of view, not just that of a black person's.

I made it pretty clear in my last post that I understand how a black person or white person sympathetic to slaves could look at the flag and get this idea in their heads. But that is not the experience of every Southern person. Many people look at this flag and get a sense of pride much the way some Americans do when looking at the American flag...despite the atrocities commited while it was being flown.

Just so we're clear....We can all agree that the Civil War was fought because the southern states felt their rights were being taken away right? The primary right they were trying to protect was the right to own slaves. I know the civil war wasn't JUST about slavery but it wasn't a minor issue that just happened to be a part of a much bigger thing. The Flag is tied to slavery and it's not like it's some LOOSE association.

Slavery was a pet cause. It's definitely wrapped up in why the South went to war. Essentially, the Southern states didn't want to give up their rights to decide a number of things for themselves. Taxation, slavery, political elements, etc.

Explain to me how the flag is, in itself, as a piece of cloth with a design on it, directly tied to slavery.

Wouldn't the American flag also be, since many Southern states flew this flag while slavery was going on?

That flag HAS been used more as a symbol for those things than "states rights" or "Southern Heritage".

It's been used widely in the south pretty much since it was created, the VAST majority of that the KKK (which from it's creation in 1864 to 1924 had a membership between 500,000 - 4,000,000) was using it and the flag was regularly flown during the days of Jim Crow (which lasted from 1876 - 1965 give or take a few years). That flag has inspired more fear than anything over the years.

Interesting What was the population of the South during those years?

Regardless...that's not what I asked. I like how you just ramble on and on about how some idiots used the flag, as if this is a point I, and others, don't understand. We get it. People who have done bad things have used this flag.

I ask again. Do you have any way to accurately measure who used the flag, and how evil they were, or whether the flag has inspired more hope and compassion VS evil over the years?

This is why I brought up majorities. The reality of it is the majority of whites in the south WERE bigots for a good 100 year period, of course there were whites who weren't bigots and fought alongside blacks and others for truly equal rights, but those fine folks were in the minority. Equal rights for blacks in the south was fought FIERCELY by the majority of whites in the south and when doing so they would OFTEN wave the confederate flag. If the people doing that were in the minority it wouldn't have taken nearly 100 years for Jim Crow to be ended the south.

I can't be sure, but I don't know that this can be proven. Can you prove that, and prove it was a majority of the population who were "bigots", which basically means treating other people with hatred and intolerance? That is not what the history books and general accounts of slavery suggest, so far as I know. What the history books do suggest that the majority of people in the south (white AND black) believed that slaves were lesser beings, but many of them, as stated above, did treat them fairly well, did not display hatred, or any true degree of "intolerance" to their culture, etc. This goes for slave owners as well. Was there a portion of the population who beat their slaves, hated blacks, and didn't tolerate them on any level? Absolutely. However, even the actual slave owners often treated their slaves fairly well.

Basically your argument against this flag is "I don't like the way the South treated slaves, this flag reminds me of that, and despite all the other things Southern people associate with this flag, I think it should be removed".

Again, seems very one sided to me.

You never suggested that it didn't exist, but you seem to be either downplaying or unaware of how wide spread it was. As I said most (not all) whites in the south were bigots for a good 100 period, they accepted and protected Jim Crow laws and when defending those laws they often would hold up the confederate flag.

Uh. No. This is you reading into what I've been saying. I don't feel the need to state the obvious over and over in this respect, so you'll pardon me for not doing so.

I'm simply stating the obvious in another respect: Not everyone in the South joined or supported the KKK. And I don't think you can even begin to prove that a majority of those in the South did.

And this idea that most people in the South were "bigots"? I can't buy that. Not in the sense of what "bigot" generally means.

Yes they did use other symbols and all of those are looks at by blacks with fear and contempt..Burning crosses, nooses, that white cross thing used by the KKK, AND the confederate flag.

So why aren't you for getting rid of crosses? Or is it just flaming crosses?

I never called for the flag to be wholly abandoned. I said that if they're going to continue to say that it's about Southern Heritage and don't want all the controversy then they should pick a flag that ALL southerners can take pride in.

Fair enough. Good luck with that.

I'm going to say again, I don't care if private citizens want to fly that flag, it's their right under the first amendment. I don't agree that the flag should be flown at government buildings because anything flying from those flag poles should represent ALL of the people of that state, not just some of them. It's much less about "southern pride" and much more about "white southern pride" and if that's the case cool, just call it as it is.

Fair enough. Good luck with that.

So then it comes down to how cool the flag looks instead of what it represents?

Flags are visual elements. Do you think a visual element would have lasted if people didn't think it looked cool, or was visually striking in some sense?

Again. There's a reason prior designs were abandoned. Go back and look at them. Many of them simply suck. This is, at least, a slightly more unique visual design.

All those other flags can represent the souths heritage and don't have near as much negativity connected to it's past use.

You mean the flags that lasted, like, a week each (I know, I know, hyperbole) and were abandoned for sucking?

The flag most often used is a battle flag, after the Civil War the only battles waged under that flag was the battle against civil rights for blacks.....well that an WW2 but that was a still a short period of time compared to all other stuff that went on while that flag was waved.

I thought it wasn't just about blacks.

The American flag hasn't exactly been a point of pride for the bulk of the black community either until recently. I'm not Christian so I could care less about the cross or what religious symbolism gets used in churches that I don't got into very often, I don't agree with it being used in government buildings though. I'm saying again that I never said the confederate flag should be abandoned, just not used in government buildings and that the vast majority of blacks see it as a symbol of racism and oppression and understandably so.

I thought it wasn't just about blacks.

Various news reports, interviews, web sites regarding the flag. The debate over this flag has been going on since the mid 90's.

Yes, there's a debate. But please find me someone who actually said the flag is not linked to this or that.

Also, can you explain how it's somehow "okay" for this flag to be seen everywhere except in an official government capacity?

Seems to me if you hate the flag and what it "stands for", you hate the flag and what it "stands for".