Spider-Man/Daredevil/Punisher "The Omega Effect"

[JewishHobbit]

I'd imagine that if you were trying to amp up DD's sales have a two or three part crossover with New Avengers. He's already on that book so it makes sense and if he has this dangerous drive with all this information wouldn't it make sense to take it to his buddies in the Avengers? There'd definately be a bigger audience that way.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it is annoying feeling pressured to buy issues of comics I don't read, namely AVENGING SPIDER-MAN and PUNISHER. It creates a situation where fans will either buy all of it or none of it, which isn't always helpful. Coming off of February's spam of VENOM, this is especially annoying. I suppose January's brief crossover between ASM and DD counts, although I read both anyway so it doesn't matter much to me.

On the other hand, "importance" is something that Marvel has insisted is the key reason to buy certain books over others, and it is difficult to make a storyline seem that way without some sort of crossover promotion. DAREDEVIL is selling at some 2-3 year lows despite the relaunch and critical buzz, and PUNISHER is fading fast. AVENGING SPIDER-MAN has debuted well, but once Joe Mad isn't the artist, it is hard telling how well it will do. Throwing in chips behind a book after one good debut bit them with ALPHA FLIGHT. However, at the very least it may encourage some readers of the superior selling AVENGING SPIDER-MAN to try out two lessor titles. And since the "Omega Drive" that DD obtained really SHOULD be a big deal, I suppose you could argue this is a case of Marvel living up to that by including Spider-Man and Punisher - even if it is Spidey's "spare" team-up title.

This is a fair view. While I don't want constant crossovers a few like this aren't bad and actually lend importance to the story. The venom upcoming crossover and this are good examples of doing something right. (just a shame those books venom was going to push got cancelled)

 

[Dread]

I'd imagine that if you were trying to amp up DD's sales have a two or three part crossover with New Avengers. He's already on that book so it makes sense and if he has this dangerous drive with all this information wouldn't it make sense to take it to his buddies in the Avengers? There'd definately be a bigger audience that way.

In terms of long-term historical performance, you'd be right. However, in terms of short term performance, AVENGING SPIDER-MAN is the better selling book. December's 2nd issue dropped from it's 100k debut, but it's still selling over 60,800 copies. NEW AVENGERS sells just shy of 53k and has struggled to sell over 60k beyond for bumps from crossovers or variant covers for a year or two now. There were times when it could sell over 80k without any aid, but those days are gone on the title. So I imagine editorial figured this based on the huge debut of AVENGING SPIDER-MAN more than anything.

In theory I do agree that it would make more sense for DD to trust his Avengers buddies with something like this; on the other hand, running to the Avengers for every problem can become an easy fix. Remember, DD and Spidey have been friends far longer than they were Avengers, and DD only became one recently. In practice, though, I'd rather be forced to buy a Zeb Wells or Greg Rucka book than a Bendis book. He's pretty much made Norman Osborn a Luke Cage enemy by this point.

This is a fair view. While I don't want constant crossovers a few like this aren't bad and actually lend importance to the story. The venom upcoming crossover and this are good examples of doing something right. (just a shame those books venom was going to push got cancelled)

Well...the VENOM crossover is basically challenging it's small but loyal audience whether they are willing to buy one issue of it a week for a month (which because this is a leap year, February actually has 5 Wednesdays). Especially issues handled by other creators starring characters, as you said, who have been canceled or are past their prime (Red Hulk). Historically this sort of thing tends to backfire. DC's proven to have gotten more out of gambles lately than Marvel - even if DEFENDERS and SCARLET SPIDER's debuts have done well.

At the very least, Marvel isn't challenging readers to buy issues of X-23, GHOST RIDER or HULK, probably because the latter two got axed.

That said, the smaller "events" tend to be better controlled and written. I actually liked SPIDER-ISLAND. While SHADOWLAND was flawed, I did find it more efficient than the usual line-wide event. And this is even smaller than that, really. It's only an issue from one book each, and two of them are still $2.99, at least.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well...the VENOM crossover is basically challenging it's small but loyal audience whether they are willing to buy one issue of it a week for a month (which because this is a leap year, February actually has 5 Wednesdays). Especially issues handled by other creators starring characters, as you said, who have been canceled or are past their prime (Red Hulk). Historically this sort of thing tends to backfire. DC's proven to have gotten more out of gambles lately than Marvel - even if DEFENDERS and SCARLET SPIDER's debuts have done well.

At the very least, Marvel isn't challenging readers to buy issues of X-23, GHOST RIDER or HULK, probably because the latter two got axed.

That said, the smaller "events" tend to be better controlled and written. I actually liked SPIDER-ISLAND. While SHADOWLAND was flawed, I did find it more efficient than the usual line-wide event. And this is even smaller than that, really. It's only an issue from one book each, and two of them are still $2.99, at least.

They were running a multipoint story with actual ramifications through several books. Personally I applaud this as and idea. Firstly if you really want to skip something you only miss a month. Secondly they were bringing attention to some books that needed it. Thirdly when the books did fall they're still running the story. So the ideas and ramifications will still have effect. Just think of it like this, it's a complete story in trade offered all at once.

I actually like red hulk now more than green hulk.

Shadowland was crap and obvious from start to finish. The tie ins were utterly useless and with no ramifications. Compare that with something like say spider-island and at least those books had some significance beyond just seeing some characters you liked.

I don't think the tie-in or the timing is bad. If you were going to buy the books you would anyway despite the time of release. But if you were on the fence you can get an idea of the complete story from someone you trust and decide based on the whole story not just the first issue. So in that way for people on the fence this is vastly an easier call and you won't feel cheated.

 

[Dread]

They were running a multipoint story with actual ramifications through several books. Personally I applaud this as and idea. Firstly if you really want to skip something you only miss a month. Secondly they were bringing attention to some books that needed it. Thirdly when the books did fall they're still running the story. So the ideas and ramifications will still have effect. Just think of it like this, it's a complete story in trade offered all at once.

I actually like red hulk now more than green hulk.

Shadowland was crap and obvious from start to finish. The tie ins were utterly useless and with no ramifications. Compare that with something like say spider-island and at least those books had some significance beyond just seeing some characters you liked.

I don't think the tie-in or the timing is bad. If you were going to buy the books you would anyway despite the time of release. But if you were on the fence you can get an idea of the complete story from someone you trust and decide based on the whole story not just the first issue. So in that way for people on the fence this is vastly an easier call and you won't feel cheated.

SHADOWLAND wasn't that great, but next to FEAR ITSELF, it's golden. It had a more comprehensible plot, it was shorter, and Iron Fist got a key moment in the climax. I probably liked that more than SIEGE or SECRET INVASION to be honest. No, it's no SPIDER-ISLAND, but I'm comparing mini-events with big events.

I suppose 5 spare issues of VENOM is easier to collect than a crossover since it's all just extra issues of one title. That said, at least Marvel is keeping some of these "mini-crossovers" brief. To tell a story that is longer than one issue yet doesn't drag on over several months.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Would Siege technically be a big event? It was Avengers centric instead of line-wide and I'm thinking it might have had less issues tied in than Shadowland, though that's just off memory and an actual count could prove me wrong.

 

[moraldeficiency]

SHADOWLAND wasn't that great, but next to FEAR ITSELF, it's golden. It had a more comprehensible plot, it was shorter, and Iron Fist got a key moment in the climax. I probably liked that more than SIEGE or SECRET INVASION to be honest. No, it's no SPIDER-ISLAND, but I'm comparing mini-events with big events.

I suppose 5 spare issues of VENOM is easier to collect than a crossover since it's all just extra issues of one title. That said, at least Marvel is keeping some of these "mini-crossovers" brief. To tell a story that is longer than one issue yet doesn't drag on over several months.

I would disagree. Both were just awful and with little sense. But both were massively better than Siege or Secret Invasion as in Fear and shadowland the heroes actions actually mattered in resolving the situation rather than just be observers for us.

It's a quick and done story, if you pass you don't need to drop the book for 4 months, and you can find out if the story sucks if you're on the fence without getting suckered out of 12 dollars first. I wish all crossovers were placed like this. I really don't get anyone complaining about the way this was handled.

 

[runawayboulder]

If I had to choose between Shadowland and Fear Itself, I take Shadowland, then I take a cold shower.....

 

[moraldeficiency]

If I had to choose between Shadowland and Fear Itself, I take Shadowland, then I take a cold shower.....

I'd take either over Siege or Secret Invasion, but I'd take a kick to the nuts and saving myself 50 bucks and several months of bad stories over either of them.

Actually I'd rather have Fear Itself. It was the one story that actually had JiM tying in to a really good effect. That and real ramifications with better stories spinning off. For daredevil shadowland is just washed aside now. It was a story with zero sum gain for anyone in anyway.

 

[Dread]

I would disagree. Both were just awful and with little sense. But both were massively better than Siege or Secret Invasion as in Fear and shadowland the heroes actions actually mattered in resolving the situation rather than just be observers for us.

It's a quick and done story, if you pass you don't need to drop the book for 4 months, and you can find out if the story sucks if you're on the fence without getting suckered out of 12 dollars first. I wish all crossovers were placed like this. I really don't get anyone complaining about the way this was handled.

I suppose. I still think it is a risk for VENOM.

As for a crossover between AVENGING SPIDER-MAN, PUNISHER, and DAREDEVIL, it's brief, but it does hint of some desperation. PUNISHER's sales are falling fast and DD is still selling at some 2-3 year lows despite Waid's buzz; it's more stable than PUNISHER at least. Still, as I said, the current editorial line of thinking is that something isn't "important" unless it is in a crossover, and the Omega Drive story should be important and eventually involve more heroes than Daredevil. In the past, minor crossovers like this with only one or two titles happened fairly often.

I'd take either over Siege or Secret Invasion, but I'd take a kick to the nuts and saving myself 50 bucks and several months of bad stories over either of them.

Actually I'd rather have Fear Itself. It was the one story that actually had JiM tying in to a really good effect. That and real ramifications with better stories spinning off. For daredevil shadowland is just washed aside now. It was a story with zero sum gain for anyone in anyway.

SHADOWLAND was the rock bottom for Daredevil where it got as dark and grim as it could go which allowed Mark Waid the fertile ground to sprout his new take on the franchise. It also is the first, and for all I know the last, event in which Iron Fist struck the final blow in the climax against the main antagonist. I liked the spin off's for it - SHADOWLAND: POWER MAN which introduced Fred Van Lente's new Power Man, and BLOOD ON THE STREETS which was the foundation for DnA's HEROES FOR HIRE/VILLAINS FOR HIRE.

 

[moraldeficiency]

SHADOWLAND was the rock bottom for Daredevil where it got as dark and grim as it could go which allowed Mark Waid the fertile ground to sprout his new take on the franchise. It also is the first, and for all I know the last, event in which Iron Fist struck the final blow in the climax against the main antagonist. I liked the spin off's for it - SHADOWLAND: POWER MAN which introduced Fred Van Lente's new Power Man, and BLOOD ON THE STREETS which was the foundation for DnA's HEROES FOR HIRE/VILLAINS FOR HIRE.

I don't think shadowland was needed for waid's lighter run. DD had plenty and always will have plenty of problems.

I did like that it ended in that way.

 

[fat freddys cat]

The Punisher sales have actually been good for his series, at 25k , and stayed at that level, he's in the top 100, all is good, I like a three way cross over , it's a more street level event, which has more meaning than Shadowland ever did...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd prefer just the opposite. Punisher's all about street-level stuff in his regular comics. If you're gonna put him in a crossover with superheroes, have him deal with something a little bit above his usual fare. Taking characters out of their element usually results in some fun adventures.

 

[cthulhu]

The Punisher sales have actually been good for his series, at 25k , and stayed at that level, he's in the top 100, all is good, I like a three way cross over , it's a more street level event, which has more meaning than Shadowland ever did...

yeah it was a real kick though for DC to relaunch everything the same month as the 616 Punisher relaunch though. How annoying!

 

[Texas]

this does start with Avenging Spider-Man # 6 and not 7, correct (article said 7, but conference said 6) ?

 

[Dread]

I don't think shadowland was needed for waid's lighter run. DD had plenty and always will have plenty of problems.

I did like that it ended in that way.

That is debatable. It is hard to get lower than being possessed by a demon and erecting a demonic ninja citadel in the middle of a neighborhood. I at least like that Iron Fist had the critical "final blow" in SHADOWLAND. It's crude, but biases are biases.

Better stories have spun forth since.

The Punisher sales have actually been good for his series, at 25k , and stayed at that level, he's in the top 100, all is good, I like a three way cross over , it's a more street level event, which has more meaning than Shadowland ever did...

Marvel seems to be less tolerant of consistent sales if they are still too close to the cancellation range. I imagine this crossover with better sellers is a saving throw for PUNISHER. And maybe hedging bets for the new DD. I mean, two small crossovers with Spider-books within it's first 11 issues? You can almost smell the desperation from the letter column.

I'd prefer just the opposite. Punisher's all about street-level stuff in his regular comics. If you're gonna put him in a crossover with superheroes, have him deal with something a little bit above his usual fare. Taking characters out of their element usually results in some fun adventures.

That varies. Frank Castle getting zapped into a space adventure would be pretty friggin' stupid. Marvel Knights turned Punisher into an angelic demon killer once and it was beyond stupid. Same as you don't like Thor engaging in "street crime" battles.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That is debatable. It is hard to get lower than being possessed by a demon and erecting a demonic ninja citadel in the middle of a neighborhood. I at least like that Iron Fist had the critical "final blow" in SHADOWLAND. It's crude, but biases are biases.

Better stories have spun forth since.

DD has always been low enough on the totem pole without needed demonic intervention. Everyone he loves basically gets killed most everyone thinks he's daredevil. Most suicide victims are in happier mindstates.

I did like that Iron Fist beat him, but really I didn't buy all powerful daredevil from the start. DD is often grossly overpowered in his ability levels.

 

[fat freddys cat]

Marvel seems to be less tolerant of consistent sales if they are still too close to the cancellation range. I imagine this crossover with better sellers is a saving throw for PUNISHER. And maybe hedging bets for the new DD. I mean, two small crossovers with Spider-books within it's first 11 issues? You can almost smell the desperation from the letter column.

This cross over was planned before Punisher issue 1 hit the stands, Rucka has said this a couple of times before, him and Waid where planning this for quite some time....

Yea DC relaunching hit Punisher and other Marvel titles, but The quality of the story telling and art has retained readers , plus good reviews helps....

 

[The Overlord]

What villains do think will show up in this crossover?

 

[Dread]

DD has always been low enough on the totem pole without needed demonic intervention. Everyone he loves basically gets killed most everyone thinks he's daredevil. Most suicide victims are in happier mindstates.

I did like that Iron Fist beat him, but really I didn't buy all powerful daredevil from the start. DD is often grossly overpowered in his ability levels.

SHADOWLAND established that DD was being physically enhanced by "the beast" demon of the Hand, which was why he was able to overcome Shang Chi, move fast enough to avoid Spider-Man, and so on. He was literally being possessed by a demon that was feeding off his negativity and empowering him. It wasn't the best thing, but I've disliked other events far more.

It's moot now, and some good comics have come from it.

This cross over was planned before Punisher issue 1 hit the stands, Rucka has said this a couple of times before, him and Waid where planning this for quite some time....

Yea DC relaunching hit Punisher and other Marvel titles, but The quality of the story telling and art has retained readers , plus good reviews helps....

Unfortunately, Marvel's trade department allows trades to go out of print fast, which can curb a series' buzz. In fairness, digital comics are day and date now.

What villains do think will show up in this crossover?

The villains involved in the initial phase of the story from DAREDEVIL were all sorts of evil organizations - HYDRA, A.I.M., the Secret Empire, and Black Spectre (a group formally run by Mandrill and Nekra). Latervia was also involved so a cameo by Dr. Doom would not be totally out of the question.

 

[hippie_hunter]

This cross over was planned before Punisher issue 1 hit the stands, Rucka has said this a couple of times before, him and Waid where planning this for quite some time....

Yea DC relaunching hit Punisher and other Marvel titles, but The quality of the story telling and art has retained readers , plus good reviews helps....

Actually, Rucka's Punisher is not retaining readers.

The book had a 5.6% drop from November to December which is not good for a book at those sales levels. In a few months at the current pace, it's on the verge of entering cancellation territory. The book started at almost 45k and is now less than 24k meaning that it has lost almost half of it's initial readership. It's about 9k lower than the previous Punisher book was at this level.

And it's a damn shame too because Rucka's Punisher is damn good. Probably one of the best incarnations of the character I have ever read.

 

[The Overlord]

The villains involved in the initial phase of the story from DAREDEVIL were all sorts of evil organizations - HYDRA, A.I.M., the Secret Empire, and Black Spectre (a group formally run by Mandrill and Nekra). Latervia was also involved so a cameo by Dr. Doom would not be totally out of the question.

Still, it would be more fun if these organizations were using street level super villains to get the device. Super heroes fighting super villains is more entertaining then super heroes fighting generic Hydra goons.

 

[Dread]

Still, it would be more fun if these organizations were using street level super villains to get the device. Super heroes fighting super villains is more entertaining then super heroes fighting generic Hydra goons.

It is possible. In the initial arc, new villain Bruiser had been hired by the assorted agencies. And in the ASM/DD crossover that just wrapped,

Spoiler

Black Cat was hired to steal the drive back from Murdock by a rep from those organizations.

So there are possibilities that this is where things are headed. After all, you usually need more than "goons" to slow down Daredevil, Spider-Man, and Punisher.

 

[moraldeficiency]

SHADOWLAND established that DD was being physically enhanced by "the beast" demon of the Hand, which was why he was able to overcome Shang Chi, move fast enough to avoid Spider-Man, and so on. He was literally being possessed by a demon that was feeding off his negativity and empowering him. It wasn't the best thing, but I've disliked other events far more.

It's moot now, and some good comics have come from it.

I'm aware of that, but still it was a bit much, although DD is typically written as considerably overpowered without any demons.

Yes, and I'll give shadowland and fear the nod over any event in recent marvel history for just that reason.