First Avenger suggestion that's going to get my lynched

[Katsuro]

The serum didn't give him his great commanding/leadership abilities. That was all him. Tony Stark gets his power from a suit of armor he wears, Steve Rogers gets it from a serum he takes. What's the difference? And if you mention that Tony invented the armor, then what about War Machine? Hell, how's it any different than Spider-Man, really? Because he didn't choose it like Cap did? So? Steve accepted the dangers in trying this experimental drug, knowing he could use it to help people. That's admirable.

Also, steroids are bad because of their negative side effects (the serum seems to have none), and that they offer an unfair advantage in a competition. Superheroics aren't a competition, they're about saving people. No one's gonna tell Cap he cant save people because he didn't get his powers ethically.

 

[not_a_victim]

Rogers didn't take the serum to add inches to his biceps, to hit more home runs, or improve his 100 meter time. He did it to stop the Nazis and Japanese in WWII.
Little bit of a difference there.

 

[not_a_victim]

I don't care when it's set. He's using artificial means to accomplish his goal. Maybe it's just a part of the character I don't like, but even if it is an experiment, I don't care. He's basically using a perfomance enhancing drug to become a better athlete/soldier. Which is kinda what American athletes and heroes are known for, so I guess it fits.

Also, X-Fan, I don't think you understand steroids. They too enhance your speed, endurance, just about everything. HGH and steroids in high doses alters your DNA, Cap is basically on a super steroid.

So we should throw bullets at bad guys instead of shooting them out of guns?
'cause it would be unfair to use arificial means to get a round to travel 1184 fps...

 

[Anubis]

Ugh, wrestlers.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

 

[not_a_victim]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

Actually, he doesn't, and it's no joke.
It's pretty easy to tell, too, as he may be the scawniest rassler I have ever seen.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

haha yea i take that back, i just checked out some pics of him.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

How is he naive????
Why wouldnt the government tell him whats going and whats going to happen to him???
It takes away the fundamental aspect of Cap. I cant imagine that someone who would become the greatest tactician in the comic universe would be too naive to know what the project was about.
Why would you go out and fight the Nazis if the country you were trying to help pulled a fast one on you?

naive in the sense of what the consequences are after the transformation. being so strong isnt easy in terms of responsibility i think.

 

[Anubis]

He wasn't that strong.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

yeah not god like but they all look up to him and see him as a sort of a saviour.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

.....

 

[Kal El Vis]

You can't take a "today" rational and attempt to ret-con out something so fundamental to the character that it has been there for 70 years.

 

[3atman]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there. Don't disrespect pro wrestlers, especially not coming from a comic guy like yourself. Both industries are looked down on in different ways, and up until about 7 years ago, wrestling fans and wrestlers had more respect. Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about. This isn't the 80s or 90s, wrestlers are average sized people. CM Punk isn't scrawney, he's about 6'1" 210 in real life, that's a good size. He's a huge comic book fan and pays tribute to comics, he even has a GI Joe Cobra tatoo. Pro wrestling and comic books are very much alike. I'm really REALLY offended by what you said.

The whole point of my thread was to just generate discussion. Discussion that provokes thought, not just "this is what I want the movie to be about" but a discussion about something deeper.

 

[Gilpesh]

Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about.

Then you should probably stop comparing idiots taking steroids for themselves and Captain America taking a risky serum to help his country. Especially as you're just listening to some wrestler who is talking out of his ass.

 

[roach]

Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there. Don't disrespect pro wrestlers, especially not coming from a comic guy like yourself. Both industries are looked down on in different ways, and up until about 7 years ago, wrestling fans and wrestlers had more respect.
I dont think this is a true assessment. I dont think westlers or fans had respect

Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about. This isn't the 80s or 90s, wrestlers are average sized people. CM Punk isn't scrawney, he's about 6'1" 210 in real life, that's a good size. He's a huge comic book fan and pays tribute to comics, he even has a GI Joe Cobra tatoo. Pro wrestling and comic books are very much alike. I'm really REALLY offended by what you said.

The whole point of my thread was to just generate discussion. Discussion that provokes thought, not just "this is what I want the movie to be about" but a discussion about something deeper.

 

[3atman]

I know they didn't, and neither did comic book movies or comic book fans. The only people who respect wrestlers are other wrestlers, or pro athletes who have been in a ring and know how much it hurts.

Then you should probably stop comparing idiots taking steroids for themselves and Captain America taking a risky serum to help his country. Especially as you're just listening to some wrestler who is talking out of his ass.

He wasn't talking out his ass, he probably knows more about comics than you do. His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge. So when asked if there was any comic hero he would beat up (he's a bad guy), he said it'd be Captain America because of the SSS. I should post the article so you can get a better understanding of where Punk is coming from.

My whole point though, was simply to stir up deeper thought other than who's posts you're going to ingore and just post your own ideas for the movie, watch them get ignored, then post more of your own and watch the cycle continue. These boards have been boring for a while and I thought it was something interesting to think about. A guy who, even though his intentions were good, didn't really work for his ability. Then again, I hate Superman, Spider-Man, and just about every other hero who just happens to get powers.

 

[Gilpesh]

He wasn't talking out his ass, he probably knows more about comics than you do.

He's also probably been hit in the head more times than normal people have so him being a bit slow is to be expected.

His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge.

Thank you. I was the one person in the entire world that had never heard the term 'straight edge' before and needed it explained to me.

So when asked if there was any comic hero he would beat up (he's a bad guy), he said it'd be Captain America because of the SSS. I should post the article so you can get a better understanding of where Punk is coming from.

He's probably coming from the land of foot-in-mouthistan.

My whole point though, was simply to stir up deeper thought

You want to stir up deeper thought by completely missing the point of what makes Captain America different than some juiced up wrestler? That's rich.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Exactly.

3atman you call me ignorant, it seems you are pretty ignorant of the character of Cap.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

Ok, so I'm a big CM Punk fan, CM Punk is a big comic book fan. He said if there is any character he'd beat the crap out of, it'd be Captain America because of the super serum (CM Punk is straight edge). Now, I actually agree with this. The serum annoys me. We live in an era where all our heroes are on steroids. The serum is basically steroids....on steroids.

Should they change it up so that either A) he doesn't even take the super serum but gets to be a super soldier through hard work or B) he's forced, like literally held down and forced, beaten up, etc to take the serum.

Or do you think it's ok that Captain America uses a performance enhancer?

i know im probably being a dick saying this but id LOVE to see him actually try and kick Cap's ass if he existed. it would be the fastest, albeit funniest, fight in history.

 

[Anubis]

yeah not god like but they all look up to him and see him as a sort of a saviour.

That's because of his personality.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

so, you got my point after all

 

[jab1118]

You can say it's because he wanted to serve his country. However, I would like to serve the Atlanta Braves, should I take HGH to do so? Or should I work my tail off to do it?

If you taking HGH to serve the Atlanta braves could help end the war in the middle east and potentially save millions of lives then I say yes shoot up. If as soon as Steve became a super soldier he signed a contract with the Yankees and broke the babes home run record you might have a point here

Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there.

Unless on top of aparently knowing so much about the steroid use of wrestlers you are also a baseball and football insider that's a pretty ignorent statement too. The reason we get more names from those sports is just that they are sports and our regulated to keep things fair. Nobody really cares if an actor gets an edge over another actor because the outcome is decided already

His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge.

Ugh has there ever been a lamer sounding character then this dude

 

[Piz]

He's not hitting home runs, he's stomping Nazis. You got a problem with that?

Haha good point!

What the hell is CM Punk?

He's a wrestler for the WWE

 

[jacross]

I think some of the analogies used in this debate are not entirely apt.

Firstly, comparing Steve Rogers super serum to say using steroids for the Atlanta Braves is a false analogy and it is a false analogy precisely because the Atlanta Braves play in a league where steroid use is not allowed.

There is a difference between using something performance enhancing for your own agenda, and using a performance enhancing substance when you have voluntarily agreed to participate in an organisation where that is not allowed. Steroid cheats in sports are not bad people because they've taken steroids. They are bad people because they voluntarily agreed to play that sport in a league with certain rules, and they have then broken those rules.

Compare that to Steve Rogers who took the super soldier serum to fight in a war. Not exactly the same thing. In fact it is not even close to the same thing.

People have also suggested that Steve Rogers is somehow lesser because he 'didn't have to work for it'. I think there are two points which go a far way to dispelling that viewpoint. Firstly, from my reading at least, Steve has to exercise constantly and strenuously to maintain his level of physical perfection. It is not as if he took a magical pill and has that strength, speed, etc for the rest of his life without having to do anything.

Secondly, I think it is important to remember that Steve was a very sickly individual. The story has been told a number of times with changes however at the very least, Steve was extremely skinny and frail. It's fair to say that his problem was medical at the very least.

At the end of the day, for me, while working for something is a benefit of itself, it is a persons actions and character that I judge someone on. Steve Rogers cheated nobody, he broke no promises. Every day of his life he has used the gifts he received to fight for freedom and help others. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that story in any way.

To be honest, if there was a pill that granted me perfect speed, strength, etc I would definitely take it. And I would use it for good. And it is the using it for good which is the thing that should be judged.

As an aside, I don't want people to have the wrong idea about steroids. There is a misconception that you can take steroids and basically slack off and get buff and strong and fast. Steroid users are not lazy and if you took steroids and did nothing, nothing would happen. In fact one of the primary benefits of steroids (particularly for people who already have pushed their bodies to that upper threshold) is the increased recovery capacity. This allows for greater volume and intensity which allows you to achieve that next level.

Personally I have nothing against people who use steroids for whatever reason, as long as they are not using it in breach of rules of a sporting organisation that they of their own free will decided to play in. Whether they use it to decrease injury recovery time, to increase speed or strength, or simply to get bigger, I have no problem with that and I don't think less of them. I simply hope they use steroids responsibly and with proper advice and protocols. Unfortunately in jurisdictions where steroids are (basically) illegal, people use them in ignorance and incorrectly, leading to significant side effects, both temporary and permanently.

Regarding CM Punk and straight edge, his attitude is an attitude that was partly why I left the movement. I used to be straight edge but it seemed to have gone from a principle where you don't wreck your body (through drug and alcohol abuse etc) to a weird rigid cult where you can't consume a gram of caffeine and if you do you are evil. It's gone from being healthy, to following cult rules. It is why Ian Mackaye, the singer of Minor Threat, and widely credited for starting Straight Edge, eventually abandoned the movement.

Out of all the super heroes, CM Punk would bash (LOL) Captain America because he was a frail, sickly, young man who wanted to defend his country, and took a serum to help him do so much good.

Straight edge is a joke.

NB: No I'm not a steroid user, however I certainly won't rule out use in the future IF I have a good reason to do so.

 

[jacross]

As for artificial means, why is that bad?

If steroid use is artificial because we didn't naturally produce it, then how much artificial means do we use every day to achieve our ends? All of medicine that doesn't involve 'well maybe you can wait it out' is pretty much artificial.