Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[honestbharani]

This might not be a popular opinion but Captain America’s third act is unquestionably superior to WW’s Snyder-esque CG-fest that arguably isn’t even thematically coherent with the rest of the movie. There’s not a single moment in TFA that surpasses the No Man’s Land sequence but it at least sticks the landing.

I’m also surprised to hear so much praise for The Wolverine. The bullet train sequence is the only one I remember raising my pulse. I’ll have to return to it soon. One thing that I recall bothering me is that Logan, a character who famously doesn’t remember anything about his life, recalls saving a guy during WWII? I know that’s a nitpick but it’s one of my only recollections of watching it.

Unpopular opinions are just as valid as popular ones. And I totally agree with you. In fact, I find all three acts of CA:TFA to be superior to Wonder Woman, and not merely due to the obvious parallels between the two.

Between WW and TFA, I feel like both Act 1's are more or less equal, WW has the superior Act 2, and TFA has the superior Act 3. So I tend to favor TFA because it sent me home with a more satisfactory ending to the movie.

But, I am also likely not the most impartial observer in this debate, LOL! Since Cap is my favorite, so I am more inclined to enjoy good movies about the character I am more loyal to (and TFA is a very, very good movie...I will fight anyone who tries to convince me otherwise, LOL!). So you can count me in on your unpopular opinion, as well.

I agree with both of you. Like everyone else I like the the no man's land sequence but although it's not an action scene so to speak TFA has the Steve on the grenade scene which is a great character moment for me.

The First Avenger is a movie that's only gotten better with age for me, especially knowing Steve's journey after all this time. The worst I can say about it is that the last two acts feel rushed (especially the second act), but I'd rather a movie feel rushed than come to a screeching halt.

Add me to the Cap 1 fan club as well. Awesome awesome movie.

I'm very excited for WW84 but I can't help but feel a little trepidatious about Steve's return. I trust in Jenkins but I can't say I'm in love with that idea right off the top.



The bolded is actually what I really love about TFA - despite his phyiscal transformation, Cap doesn't change one bit in that movie and that's the whole point. He is goodness incarnate from the first moment we meet him and the rest of the world changes around him to recognize that.

I think Snyder and Goyer wanted to take a similar approach to Superman. The fact that he has no character arc feels like an oversight so it obviously doesn't work, but I think they kind of started in that initial direction. That's how the boy-scout heroes should be written IMO.

Cap's evolution since TFA to where he is in Infinity War is why he is, IMHO, the greatest live action superhero we've had to date. You could make the argument that he's changed a lot since we first met him in 2011, and you could also make the argument that he hasn't changed at all. I think both are valid readings in their own way.

Completely agree on everything about Cap and his character evolution in the MCU.

To me, what places TFA comfortably above WW in my rankings is the fact that the weakest bit of TFA, the second act, is understandable in a meta sense given what the movie had to accomplish to reach The Avengers. WW did not have an issue in that regard. That entire 3rd act could have been so much better, just like The Wolverine.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This might not be a popular opinion but Captain America’s third act is unquestionably superior to WW’s Snyder-esque CG-fest that arguably isn’t even thematically coherent with the rest of the movie. There’s not a single moment in TFA that surpasses the No Man’s Land sequence but it at least sticks the landing.

I’m also surprised to hear so much praise for The Wolverine. The bullet train sequence is the only one I remember raising my pulse. I’ll have to return to it soon. One thing that I recall bothering me is that Logan, a character who famously doesn’t remember anything about his life, recalls saving a guy during WWII? I know that’s a nitpick but it’s one of my only recollections of watching it.

How is it not thematically coherent with the rest of the film?

The finale of the second act of the Wolverine might be the best thing in all of the X-Men series to me. The bullet train is great, but Wolverine/Yukio vs. Shingen is just all kinds of perfect imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The bolded is actually what I really love about TFA - despite his phyiscal transformation, Cap doesn't change one bit in that movie and that's the whole point. He is goodness incarnate from the first moment we meet him and the rest of the world changes around him to recognize that.

I think Snyder and Goyer wanted to take a similar approach to Superman. The fact that he has no character arc feels like an oversight so it obviously doesn't work, but I think they kind of started in that initial direction. That's how the boy-scout heroes should be written IMO.

Cap's evolution since TFA to where he is in Infinity War is why he is, IMHO, the greatest live action superhero we've had to date. You could make the argument that he's changed a lot since we first met him in 2011, and you could also make the argument that he hasn't changed at all. I think both are valid readings in their own way.

I love Cap being a bit of a low rent Superman in that regard. But why I prefer the character journey of Diana in WW in comparison, is that she doesn't just have to learn something, it is the lesson and how well it pays off. For intent and purpose, Diana is basically an adolescence who grew up with a very black and white view on the nature of good and evil, and this is a direct result of her mother sheltering her, her entire life. It's almost cruel, even as it is understandable. After all, who doesn't want to protect their child? But this basically results in her daughter running away from home, into a world she couldn't possibly comprehend. And yet, enter Steve Trevor. As much as I love Atwell's Peggy, because of the general state of Cap in the movie and how it basically has no second act, she really doesn't have much of an impact on Cap or the story. This is very different from Diana and Steve, whose relationship the entire film is built around, including the finale.

I do find it interesting that people complain about the CGI in the WW ending, but seem to ignore how bad the backgrounds during a lot of Cap. I mean, the car, the backgrounds, a lot of that film, including the finale, looks really fake.

 

[Boy Scout]

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a million times: the MCU’s Captain America is a perfect example of how to do Superman in the modern era.

 

[Kane52630]

Yep... the blueprint was right there and yet Snyder got his hands on Superman.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

How is it not thematically coherent with the rest of the film?

The finale of the second act of the Wolverine might be the best thing in all of the X-Men series to me. The bullet train is great, but Wolverine/Yukio vs. Shingen is just all kinds of perfect imo.

Agreed, the fight with Shingen is amazing, one of my favourite CBM moments, brilliantly acted also.

The extended ninja fight is also great.

 

[Man in the Suit]

I do find it interesting that people complain about the CGI in the WW ending, but seem to ignore how bad the backgrounds during a lot of Cap. I mean, the car, the backgrounds, a lot of that film, including the finale, looks really fake.

And in every MCU entry that wasn't directed by Jon Favreau. Even in a lot of close-ups in The Winter Soldier are actors standing in front of a green screen. They all look terrible. If WW's 3rd act is "Snyder CG Fest", then all of Marvel's CG nonsense is a Feige Fest. What will the next movie be to get the copy/pasted aerial battle that was in TWS, GOTG, and Black Panther? We'll find out soon! This has been my weekly Marvel bashing...

 

[Drizzle]

Can't we just all agree that nether WW nor any of the MCU films' CGI have looked as bad as the Nintendo 64 VFX used in Justice League?

 

[Kane52630]

Can't we just all agree that nether WW nor any of the MCU films' CGI have looked as bad as the Nintendo 64 VFX used in Justice League?

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Drizzle]

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[C. Lee]

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER is one of my top superhero movies. It isn't there because the CGI is the best ever done....it's there because of it's heart. The story of a good decent man wanting to fight bullying anywhere and any way is what's important.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

And in every MCU entry that wasn't directed by Jon Favreau. Even in a lot of close-ups in The Winter Soldier are actors standing in front of a green screen. They all look terrible. If WW's 3rd act is "Snyder CG Fest", then all of Marvel's CG nonsense is a Feige Fest. What will the next movie be to get the copy/pasted aerial battle that was in TWS, GOTG, and Black Panther? We'll find out soon! This has been my weekly Marvel bashing...

That's because at least half of his movies take place on Tony's mansion

 

[titansupes]

Man, I love Cap himself in that movie, but the movie as a whole ranks very, VERY low to me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER is one of my top superhero movies. It isn't there because the CGI is the best ever done....it's there because of it's heart. The story of a good decent man wanting to fight bullying anywhere and any way is what's important.

Which is exactly why even though the movie hasn't aged all that well for me as a film, I adore it and have seen it so many times. It is why I love Evans Cap so.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And in every MCU entry that wasn't directed by Jon Favreau. Even in a lot of close-ups in The Winter Soldier are actors standing in front of a green screen. They all look terrible. If WW's 3rd act is "Snyder CG Fest", then all of Marvel's CG nonsense is a Feige Fest. What will the next movie be to get the copy/pasted aerial battle that was in TWS, GOTG, and Black Panther? We'll find out soon! This has been my weekly Marvel bashing...

It's true.

I actually think it is amazing that in general, a lot of the effects work in Marvel films, even now, are all over the place. Even in Infinity War. Thanos and his children look fantastic, while Tony, Peter and Banner all look like floating heads in their armor.

 

[flickchick85]

I actually think it is amazing that in general, a lot of the effects work in Marvel films, even now, are all over the place. Even in Infinity War. Thanos and his children look fantastic, while Tony, Peter and Banner all look like floating heads in their armor.

Do they though?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Do they though?

This is fair.

I do find Ebony Maw to be legit. The others can be hit and miss, with the big guy being basically a miss. I distinctly remember a close up of the eyes on Proxima and thinking, "that was a band idea."

 

[Iceman]

Which is exactly why even though the movie hasn't aged all that well for me as a film, I adore it and have seen it so many times. It is why I love Evans Cap so.

Wouldn't that make it age better as that quality is something that can't be taken away with the passage of time, unlike even very well done modern special effects.

 

[Boy Scout]

Man, I love Cap himself in that movie, but the movie as a whole ranks very, VERY low to me.

Same. I’ve only watched it once and don’t plan on ever watching it again.

 

[Snow Queen]

Thanos was pretty solid overall, though I think there are some times he looks kinda bad, but the rest of Infinity War's CG was not doing it for me. His children don't look like they're in the scenes to me. The worst though might be the floating heads, Banner's in it's last(?) shot appearance makes a dramatic moment rather hilarious.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Wouldn't that make it age better as that quality is something that can't be taken away with the passage of time, unlike even very well done modern special effects.

I liked it overall as a movie better in the past. I couldn't really express in the past the problem I had with it, but once I was able to, the flaws stuck out more to me. Especially with much better Cap movies coming after it, and Agent Carter, where I really got to see Atwell shine.

Basically, it is a lot like movies from my childhood. I still love them, I know why I love them then and now, but that doesn't mean I find them to be the best film. Like with Return of the Jedi. I grew up with that being my favorite movie until I was like 10. I still love it, but I don't find it to be the best movie ever like I did growing up.

 

[Iceman]

I liked it overall as a movie better in the past. I couldn't really express in the past the problem I had with it, but once I was able to, the flaws stuck out more to me.

Basically, it is a lot like movies from my childhood. I still love them, I know why I love them then and now, but that doesn't mean I find them to be the best film. Like with Return of the Jedi. I grew up with that being my favorite movie until I was like 10. I still love it, but I don't find it to be the best movie ever like I did growing up.

Kind of makes sense. I also like TFA fine, but I like a lot other MCU films more, even if they don’t have the strengths of TFA and its main character.

 

[DACrowe]

And I notice you project your own thoughts as if they were laid out in the actual movie. Selina did not sell out Bruce and then Batman because of some sort of radical ideology. She did that coz she was pragmatic to the point of being obnoxiously selfish. Notice how you had fit the selfishness into your essay there, and yet that was the only thing that was actually established within the movie. And then she spoke to a kid and Bruce Wayne, and suddenly had a different perspective. I know it sounds great and eloquent when you can inject every possible justification you have sprouted off within your own mind for what happens in a movie but that is not how movies work. They need to make sense with the scenes they show on screen and Rises did not. End of Story. And I kinda already explained how Natasha had actual character development in IM2 than just a "change of heart coz script needs it" like Selina does in Rises.

Natasha was in Iron Man 2? I forgot.

And I agree she sold Bruce out because it was a selfish action to save her own skin... hence what I wrote. If you want to know where I'm "projecting" her having an ideology in the movie, here is the scene filled with about as much subtlety as a two-ton hammer. I.E. a scene written by one of the Nolans.

 

[DACrowe]

The bolded is actually what I really love about TFA - despite his phyiscal transformation, Cap doesn't change one bit in that movie and that's the whole point. He is goodness incarnate from the first moment we meet him and the rest of the world changes around him to recognize that.

I think Snyder and Goyer wanted to take a similar approach to Superman. The fact that he has no character arc feels like an oversight so it obviously doesn't work, but I think they kind of started in that initial direction. That's how the boy-scout heroes should be written IMO.

Cap's evolution since TFA to where he is in Infinity War is why he is, IMHO, the greatest live action superhero we've had to date. You could make the argument that he's changed a lot since we first met him in 2011, and you could also make the argument that he hasn't changed at all. I think both are valid readings in their own way.

I suppose that's fair. Overall, as an anchor to the MCU, it worked great. As well as with the epilogue or "present scene." It just left the climax of TFA wanting for me. I think "the world changes but he doesn't" was done much better in TWS and CW. But I see your point of view and cannot argue with it. Just a difference of taste for it in this particular circumstance.

I love Cap being a bit of a low rent Superman in that regard. But why I prefer the character journey of Diana in WW in comparison, is that she doesn't just have to learn something, it is the lesson and how well it pays off. For intent and purpose, Diana is basically an adolescence who grew up with a very black and white view on the nature of good and evil, and this is a direct result of her mother sheltering her, her entire life. It's almost cruel, even as it is understandable. After all, who doesn't want to protect their child? But this basically results in her daughter running away from home, into a world she couldn't possibly comprehend. And yet, enter Steve Trevor. As much as I love Atwell's Peggy, because of the general state of Cap in the movie and how it basically has no second act, she really doesn't have much of an impact on Cap or the story. This is very different from Diana and Steve, whose relationship the entire film is built around, including the finale.

I do find it interesting that people complain about the CGI in the WW ending, but seem to ignore how bad the backgrounds during a lot of Cap. I mean, the car, the backgrounds, a lot of that film, including the finale, looks really fake.

And agreed on all fronts here.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I really feel like I see entirely different movies from you all sometimes Like, I notice CGI every now and then, like Cavill's mustache. But all these complaints with Infinity War? I'd never in a million years have thought there would be complaints about the CGI.