Superman Beyond Rants About Fairtax (yes, again :dry:) and Uses Asteroid Metaphor

[Handsome Rob]

Since I don't make more than $200K, I'm going to let the asteroid do us in.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

This "study" has already been debunked by fairtax.org, and the response is on display thanks to SuBe over at the FairTax thread in the Politics forum.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=290666&page=22

 

[SuBe]

Have you ever found a game, or read a book, or ate at a resturant, and thought that it was so amazing you had to share? You knew that the only thing that you could do is talk about it to your friends and maybe eventually, they would go out and try that Resturant, or play that game, or buy that book?

This idea is so good, that I'm sure if you look past the Politics, and the rhetoric, you too will fall in love with this idea.

You may laugh. I know that most of you on this Site are too immature to see something Vitally important, and scoff it off. This FairTax has nothing to do with Politics. It has nothing to do with one party being right and the Other being Wrong.

I can't believe that most of you can't see that.

And, by the way, in the Original Post, I mentioned the National Debt being the Problem, and the FairTax is a soultion. One of Many Solutions.

 

[Darthphere]

Have you ever found a game, or read a book, or ate at a resturant, and thought that it was so amazing you had to share? You knew that the only thing that you could do is talk about it to your friends and maybe eventually, they would go out and try that Resturant, or play that game, or buy that book?

Yes, and then my friends get annoyed and tell me to shut the **** up. That's how it usually works.

 

[Superman4ever]

Have you ever found a game, or read a book, or ate at a resturant, and thought that it was so amazing you had to share? You knew that the only thing that you could do is talk about it to your friends and maybe eventually, they would go out and try that Resturant, or play that game, or buy that book?

This idea is so good, that I'm sure if you look past the Politics, and the rhetoric, you too will fall in love with this idea.

You may laugh. I know that most of you on this Site are too immature to see something Vitally important, and scoff it off. This FairTax has nothing to do with Politics. It has nothing to do with one party being right and the Other being Wrong.

I can't believe that most of you can't see that.

And, by the way, in the Original Post, I mentioned the National Debt being the Problem, and the FairTax is a soultion. One of Many Solutions.

Your silly metaphors and backhanded comments aside, you still haven't addressed the fact that the Faketax's 23% rate is ONLY inclusive and avoids real world problem. It is making an assumption that corporations amid removal of hidden taxes will do the right thing. It ASSUMES a LOT. For instance it assumes there will be no tax evasion. When tax evasion was considered the PRESIDENT'S Advisory panel stated that the inclusive rate would be 25% (NOT 23) and the exclusive rate would be 34%.

Brookings institute found that exclusive rate would be 53%, when real world mathematics are used. We're doing 41% now why the hell should we pay 53?

Also this crap about you get to keep 100% of your paycheck...it's a LIE!

What The FairTax Book fails to mention is that prices can only fall this sharply if companies cut wages. I asked Jorgenson about this, and he agreed. Say your salary is $100,000 a year today, but you take home $80,000 after taxes.

Your company is still paying that extra $20,000. In a FairTax world, it will save that money, and be able to lower its prices accordingly, only if it can reduce your salary to $80,000 [FROM 100,000]. In other words, your take-home pay is the same as before. Sure, you'd get to "keep 100 percent of your paycheck," as Boortz and Linder repeatedly write, but it would be a smaller paycheck. That's kind of a big thing to leave out.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/06/pf/taxes/consumptiontax_0510/index.htm

And when pressed about the issue Neal Boortz (the writer of The "Fair"Tax Book) and John Linder (a Republican Rep. who is a strong proponent of Faketax) avoid the topic saying only that they didn't make intentional over promises. Hm, lying about a tax plan by conveniently avoiding real world scenarios and promising a 23% rate on only new goods (but avoiding the fact that Doctor bills, interest rate, mortgages, buying a new home, rent, legal fees and GAS, which is high enough already, are NOW taxable under their devilish plan and ARE NOT part of the "basic necessities" prebate check) is OVER PROMISING and is actually a FLATOUT LIE that will only hurt the middle class and the poor who have to spend MOST of what they earn to live.

This tax plan is supported by the wealthy and powerful because it doesn't affect them. The hidden burden falls on the poor and middle class.

...only six countries have operated an RST [Retail Sales Tax] at a rate over 10 percent, and all but one has since abandoned it.

And yet some how 23% is going to work in our market.

Moreover,

If simple is beautiful, from afar the RST looks beautiful, indeed. But this is
deceiving. First, keep in mind that the tax rate needed to replace federal income tax collections fully would be jaw-dropping, but not in a good way—about 27 percent if the federal sales tax base were the same as that of the average state, and considerably higher if the base did not include purchases of business inputs, as it should not. Add to that current state and local sales tax rates, maybe doubled to account for the fact that few states will maintain their income tax if the feds have abandoned theirs, an the rate would be well over 30 percent. Under a 30 percent–plus RST, the enforcement problems would be different than now, to be sure, but not smaller. All of the collection onus falls on one business sector for which the other side of the taxed transactions—consumers—has no incentive to help enforce the tax. Indeed, I believe it would be impossible to levy such a tax at the standards of equity and intrusiveness to which we are accustomed. Undoubtedly for these reasons, only six countries have operated an RST at a rate over 10 percent, and all but one has since abandoned it. I am a risk-averse person and would not bet the fiscal integrity of the United States on an untested—or more precisely, a tested-but-found-to-be-wanting—system of collecting revenue.

You can read his full report here.

Faketax is NOT the solution, it addresses some problems legitimately, but ultimately is based on assumptions that would test the very foundations of this nation. 23% RST would cripple the government, and anyone who disagrees is being lead by blind faith! It really burdens a question if the proponents of Faketax use the same "logic" and "science" that spurred the creationism.

 

[Matt]

I love when Fairtax people get this asses handed to them.

Anyhow, this analogy is faulty as if there were an asteroid heading for Earth, our generation wouldn't really be able to do much about it at this point. The burden would fall on the next generation simply because it would be millions of light years away right now.

 

[Superman4ever]

I love when Fairtax people get this asses handed to them.

Anyhow, this analogy is faulty as if there were an asteroid heading for Earth, our generation wouldn't really be able to do much about it at this point. The burden would fall on the next generation simply because it would be millions of light years away right now.

I'm SO sick and tired of him spewing this as anything other than fantasy. Economists, well established people from well established institutions, like NYU and Michigan, hell even President Bush's Advisory panel state that Faketax could not work, under real-world circumstances, below 30% (it's IMPOSSIBLE). That article that I linked, by Dr. Sledrod, stated that the US government would fail if we had anything below 30. There is a reason why retail sales tax fail 5 out of 6 times, it puts the burden on the middle/poor class (no matter how you slice it, "prebate" sham checks and all!)

They also assume (so they can keep that silly ass 23 number circulating) that tax evasion can't occur and that the consumer is going to be willing to pay their taxes. In the 5 countries that used a RST all of them had a big BOOM in black market.

I find it very concerning that they're not mentioning that gas will be taxed under this program. Wonder why? It would stop this "grassroots" movement dead in it's center. Gas is high enough as it is, add 30% (at least) and I'm moving to Tahiti! Gas goes up EVERYTHING goes up.

This "plan" is evil and the fact that Huckabee is SO damn enthusiastic about it is a red flag. This plan is dangerous for America.

 

[SuBe]

It is Called FairTax, Not FakeTax. FakeTax doesn't make any sence. FairTax is a Proper Noun, as in a Name. That would be the Same thing as me calling you Stupidman4ever. That wouldn't be nice now would it?

Your silly metaphors and backhanded comments aside, you still haven't addressed the fact that the Faketax's 23% rate is ONLY inclusive and avoids real world problem. It is making an assumption that corporations amid removal of hidden taxes will do the right thing. It ASSUMES a LOT. For instance it assumes there will be no tax evasion. When tax evasion was considered the PRESIDENT'S Advisory panel stated that the inclusive rate would be 25% (NOT 23) and the exclusive rate would be 34%.

Prices would fall be cause of something called Competitition. It would only take hours or Days. Have you ever seen 2 Gas Stations across the Street from eachother? One is could only be $.01 difference in Price, where does everyone go? The one with the Cheaper Gas. Competetion works, and that would force everyone to lower their prices. There are plenty of real World examples where prices are just a few pennies cheaper and in order to maintain market share, Manufacturers would have to lower prices. It's not Magic, it's Economics 101 my friend.

Brookings institute found that exclusive rate would be 53%, when real world mathematics are used.

Below is a report from Laurence Kotlikoff, Ph.D. of Boston University and the Beacon Hill Institute saying that a 23% Consumption Tax would work.

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax Notes article on FT rate.pdf

Also this crap about you get to keep 100% of your paycheck...it's a LIE!

Please explain how, if you do not have ANY taxes removed from your paycheck, that you wouldn't receive 100% of it? Go ask the CFO of your company, if you do, he'll tell you that their tax liability on their Payroll taxes are taken into account in their figures with regard to Taxes paid at the end of the year. THEY ALREADY TAKE PAYROLL TAXES INTO ACCOUNT. That and YOUR INCOME TAXES IS MONEY YOU EARN! Those are your Income taxes, not the employers. If they take out those taxes, you received 100% of your paycheck. Now, that does mean only FEDERAL TAXES are REMOVED. State taxes would still be taken out, but that is a State issue, not a Federal Issue.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/06/pf/taxes/consumptiontax_0510/index.htm

And when pressed about the issue Neal Boortz (the writer of The "Fair"Tax Book) and John Linder (a Republican Rep. who is a strong proponent of Faketax) avoid the topic saying only that they didn't make intentional over promises. Hm, lying about a tax plan by conveniently avoiding real world scenarios and promising a 23% rate on only new goods (but avoiding the fact that Doctor bills, interest rate, mortgages, buying a new home, rent, legal fees and GAS, which is high enough already, are NOW taxable under their devilish plan and ARE NOT part of the "basic necessities" prebate check) is OVER PROMISING and is actually a FLATOUT LIE that will only hurt the middle class and the poor who have to spend MOST of what they earn to live.

You are already paying taxes when you go to the Doctor, or paying your Mortgage, or buying a new home. When a have a business, you have Tax Liability, those taxes are passed onto the End Consumer. That is you. The Hospital payes taxes on the products they buy to use on you! That means they have to pass that down to you. They include those taxes in their margins. The same thing for EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS ENTITY in the United State. It is Call Corporate Taxes. Those Taxes are passed onto the Margins of every single level of Manufacturer. NO CORPORATION pays taxes, they collect them and pass them on to the Government. YOU as a CONSUMER PAYS ALL TAXES.

This tax plan is supported by the wealthy and powerful because it doesn't affect them. The hidden burden falls on the poor and middle class.

And yet some how 23% is going to work in our market.

I guess you don't understand that the Poor would be untaxed for their purchases up to the Poverty level. I guess you don't understand that with 100% of their Paycheck, and the Prebate, they would have more disposible income to afford Housing, and that the Education System would be not taxed, which would drop Tution by roughly 30% when compared to todays cost, that Education would be more affordable, which would help the Poor and Middle Class be more Marketable in the Work Place, which means that Wages would go up. Which, if their Wages are up, they are in a better place than under our current tax code which taxes them before they ever see their paycheck. That means, they would have essentially a 10-20% increase in their pay, which they can DECIDE when they pay their taxes, but the Prebate would offset the Tax Component in the Price of Food and Necessities. So, if they can only pay for Food, and and College Education, that means they wouldn't be paying ANY TAXES AT ALL. But, if they purchase anything AFTER the Poverty Level, then they would be paying taxes. Is that TOO difficult for you to understand?

Moreover,



You can read his full report here.

Faketax is NOT the solution, it addresses some problems legitimately, but ultimately is based on assumptions that would test the very foundations of this nation. 23% RST would cripple the government, and anyone who disagrees is being lead by blind faith! It really burdens a question if the proponents of Faketax use the same "logic" and "science" that spurred the creationism.

The FairTax is Revenue Neutral, that means that Revenue would be exactly the Same as it is today. But, it is collected differently. And, with the increase in the Economy, the Government would actually collect MORE revenue than today. What does a Government do when they want to increase the Job-Rate? Cut Corporate Taxes. That lowers prices at the Market level, which puts more money into the Corporation, to expand Jobs. (Google: Irish Miracle, or Celtic Tiger for Real World Examples) What would happen if the Corporate Tax Rate was ZERO?

It isn't that difficult to understand.

Let me ask you this, what do you have to lose if we adopt the FairTax?

No more Individual Audits from the IRS. No more Filing your W-2's. No More Having to worry about submitting any paper work by April 15th. No More Taxes on your Savings. When it's payday, you know that you will get what you are promised, not 30% lower.

 

[Superman4ever]

It is Called FairTax, Not FakeTax. FakeTax doesn't make any sence. FairTax is a Proper Noun, as in a Name. That would be the Same thing as me calling you Stupidman4ever. That wouldn't be nice now would it?

Would you prefer FraudulentTax? You can call me whatever you wish, at least I don't support an evil manipulative campaign out to destroy the middle class and call myself a patriot, out to save America.

Oh, Stupidman4ever what are you in grade school?

 

[SuBe]

I'm SO sick and tired of him spewing this as anything other than fantasy. Economists, well established people from well established institutions, like NYU and Michigan, hell even President Bush's Advisory panel state that Faketax could not work, under real-world circumstances, below 30% (it's IMPOSSIBLE). That article that I linked, by Dr. Sledrod, stated that the US government would fail if we had anything below 30. There is a reason why retail sales tax fail 5 out of 6 times, it puts the burden on the middle/poor class (no matter how you slice it, "prebate" sham checks and all!)

They also assume (so they can keep that silly ass 23 number circulating) that tax evasion can't occur and that the consumer is going to be willing to pay their taxes. In the 5 countries that used a RST all of them had a big BOOM in black market.

I find it very concerning that they're not mentioning that gas will be taxed under this program. Wonder why? It would stop this "grassroots" movement dead in it's center. Gas is high enough as it is, add 30% (at least) and I'm moving to Tahiti! Gas goes up EVERYTHING goes up.

This "plan" is evil and the fact that Huckabee is SO damn enthusiastic about it is a red flag. This plan is dangerous for America.

45 out of 50 States use the Retail Sale Tax. Florida has NO income Tax and is the 7th Largest Economy in the World if considered its own Country. Texas has no Income Tax, and is considered the 10th Largest Economy if considered it's own Country. Michigan is Considering adopting the FairTax at the State Level.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=5953122

That Exclusive 30% that they keep talking about IS the 23% Incluvise Rate. $23 out of $100 is what? 23%. The Difference is $77.

Now the Exclusive Example: You start with $77, $23 out of $77 is 29.87012% of $77. Which if you round up, is 30 Freaking Percent!

GAS is already taxed! The Corporate Taxes on Oil Companies is the Highest of any Industry in the Country. Those Taxes get passed to the Consumer. On Top of that, $0.18 of every Gallon is Taxed Federally. Most of the Cost of Gasoline IS TAXES!

AND NO COUNTRY USES EXCLUSIVELY JUST A RETAIL SALES TAX. ALL COUNTRIES EITHER USE A V.A.T. OR INCOME TAX SIMILAR TO OUR OWN.

If you are tired of seeing me talk about this. Don't go to a Thread that discusses it.

 

[Superman4ever]

It isn't that difficult to understand.

Let me ask you this, what do you have to lose if we adopt the FairTax?

No more Individual Audits from the IRS. No more Filing your W-2's. No More Having to worry about submitting any paper work by April 15th. No More Taxes on your Savings. When it's payday, you know that you will get what you are promised, not 30% lower.

It's not difficult to understand yet economic theorists can't figure how this plan could work, realistically.

We have a LOT to lose, like the middle-class. Having our government collapse. And to claim that the government can function with a 23% inclusive rate, stay revenue neutral and make us happy is completely naive.

We are being taxed at 41% right now, have a record setting national debt and yet somehow a 23% RST is going to save us?

My taxes have been sent in already, I agree that reform is needed and that the IRS should go, but I'm not convinced that this plan is the way to go. This thing is like a pyramid scheme, or any scheme for that matter, it has the allure of promise, but when you dig a little deeper you see it for the BS it really is!

 

[SuBe]

It's not difficult to understand yet economic theorists can't figure how this plan could work, realistically.

We have a LOT to lose, like the middle-class. Having our government collapse. And to claim that the government can function with a 23% inclusive rate, stay revenue neutral and make us happy is completely naive.

We are being taxed at 41% right now, have a record setting national debt and yet somehow a 23% RST is going to save us?

My taxes have been sent in already, I agree that reform is needed and that the IRS should go, but I'm not convinced that this plan is the way to go. This thing is like a pyramid scheme, or any scheme for that matter, it has the allure of promise, but when you dig a little deeper you see it for the BS it really is!

Maybe you didn't know that Over $11 Trillion is outside of this Country in OffShore Savings accounts because of our Tax Code. We need to Bring those Monies back home. We Currently do not take Income Taxes from Drug Dealers, Illegal Immigrants, Prostitues, and Tourists. Under the Fairtax they would pay into our system. Under the FairTax people couldn't CHEAT like they do know. There wouldn't be $250 Billion spent on Compliance Costs. Spending wouldn't stop, that would be the only way to collect revenue from everyone equally, on Spending. Soon we are going to have more people in this country retired than working. What then? The Baby Boomers are not going to be paying income taxes, what then? Just Increase the Tax Burden on the Working to cover that?

 

[CorpusBlack]

I love when Fairtax people get this asses handed to them.

I love when Mods don't use proper English.

 

[CorpusBlack]

We have a LOT to lose, like the middle-class.

Wrong.

 

[SuBe]

This Inclusive/Exclusive Debate is Assinine. It is the Same thing as a FootBall Field.

It's 100 Yards, AND 300 Feet at the Same Time. It is a 23% Inclusive Tax AND a 30% Exclusive Tax at the Same Time.

 

[CorpusBlack]

We should keep all the FairTax ranting to a single thread.

 

[SuBe]

We should keep all the FairTax ranting to a single thread.

Agreed. The original intent of this thread had little to do with the FairTax, it would about our National Debt.

 

[redmarvel]

Asteroid 99942 Apophis was lowered to Level 0 (The likelihood of a collision is zero, or is so low as to be effectively zero. Also applies to small objects such as meteors and bodies that burn up in the atmosphere as well as infrequent meteorite falls that rarely cause damage) [i.e. no hazard] on the Torino Scale, which categorizes the impact hazard of Near Earth Objects, in August of '06, after it passed the "keyhole" for it to strike on 2029. An impact on April 13, 2036 is estimated at 1 in 45,000. An impact in 2037 is estimated as 1 in 12.3 million. According to researchers, there is no longer any specific probability of an Earth impact.

The only Near Earth Object that isn't at Level 0 is Asteroid 1950 DA, which is at Level 1 (A routine discovery in which a pass near the Earth is predicted that poses no unusual level of danger. Current calculations show the chance of collision is extremely unlikely with no cause for public attention or public concern. New telescopic observations very likely will lead to re-assignment to Level 0.) [i.e. normal)

Where do you get your stats from Addendum? The stats from the Nasa site do seem to agree with you if you use the Torino scale.

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/

Seems we might have an impact in 2048. However, according to that site we will get absolutley no asteroid impacts before then, which I find a little hard to believe.

 

[Tron5000]

FairTax FTW. And the new FairTax book absolutely kicks ass and blows many of the arguments made in this thread out of the water.

I'd post many of those arguments, but they would be rebuffed by sheer ignorance and partisanship. I suggest everyone in this country read both FairTax books in order to get a better understanding of the great positive effects it would have on this wonderful nation and our sagging economy. Reading is fundamental.

 

[SuBe]

FairTax FTW. And the new FairTax book absolutely kicks ass and blows many of the arguments made in this thread out of the water.

I'd post many of those arguments, but they would be rebuffed by sheer ignorance and partisanship. I suggest everyone in this country read both FairTax books in order to get a better understanding of the great positive effects it would have on this wonderful nation and our sagging economy. Reading is fundamental.

Tron5000 FTW

 

[CorpusBlack]

FairTax FTW. And the new FairTax book absolutely kicks ass and blows many of the arguments made in this thread out of the water.

People b-tching about it don't know what the f-ck they're talking about and haven't read the book. They're just jumping on the bandwagon of their favorite politicians who are too busy kissing the asses of countless lobbyists.

Can't we just merge the multiple FairTax threads?