Superman II Superman II

[The Batman]

Discuss the first sequel to STM, whether it be the original cut or the Donner version, here.

This film has a very memorable performance from Terrance Stamp, and Chris Reeve was good as always. Both the original and Donner cuts have their strengths and weakeness, and its a shame that there isnt an official version of this film that combines the best of both.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

The memory kiss is hokey, but everything leading up to it in that scene is great and the kiss gets a pass because of it. I think Donner let his ego get in the way by cutting that scene is his version.

 

[BH/HHH]

The memory kiss is hokey, but everything leading up to it in that scene is great and the kiss gets a pass because of it. I think Donner let his ego get in the way by cutting that scene is his version.

Even though it wasn't him that cut it? It was Michael Thau and he made a point with it. They had a rule that Lois should never kiss Clark only Superman. They only used the turning back time ending because it was the original planned ending and they never had worked out (which they would have seen as though they used that ending in the first one instead) or filmed another ending back on the day so they didn't have much choice. It would have been stupid to use an ending that wasn't shot by Donner for one and an ending he didn't like, which I agree with. Not that the turning back time was the best solution but I don't think you could call it the Donner cut and use an ending that he never agreed with.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Oh, well, then whoever cut it, I still say that's the better ending.

 

[AnneFan]

Thanks for making the thread, Bats. I've been meaning to talk about Superman II. I've dismissed it readily in recent times due to the various issues surrounding its creation. The main one being the Donner cut, which makes things a little complicated.

I concede a mix of each cut's strengths would be best. But ultimately I prefer the Theatrical. It's the one I know best, saw first and have seen more often. I also think the Donner Cut introduces problems which the first lacked, even if that version has scenes I quite liked.

I greatly prefer the ending of the Theatrical, and find it to be one of the best of any comic book movie. There's something so heart warming, patriotic and genuine in Reeve flying the American flag back to the White House and promising to never let the President down again.

 

[The Batman]

I have to admit, when I first saw the Donner cut, I found it hard to go back to the original version. It had a more serious tone, as well as the whole Jor El stuff that made the movie more powerful.

Nowadays, I've lightened up. Some of Zod's delivery in the official version is funny, and like you said the ending is generally better in the official version.

And of course, Superman saying "General, would you care to step outside" is too badass of a line.

 

[AnneFan]

I'm not the biggest Superman II defender or anything, but there is this:

 

[The Batman]

The original films were more inspired by the comics than some would think.

Even the ability to "turn back time" came from the comics.

 

[AnneFan]

The original films were more inspired by the comics than some would think.

Even the ability to "turn back time" came from the comics.

Indeed.

I wish there was an individual Blu-ray release for Lester's Superman II. It's really annoying there isn't. I don't have a copy and don't want to buy the Anthology box set where it features.

Some of my issues with the Donner Cut:

- Clark sleeping with Lois before changing into a mortal. Why does he have to change at all then?
- I underatand the reasoning, but I really dislike the Donner Cut ending which re-uses turning back time plot device. I greatly prefer the Theatrical ending. I'll take a memory kiss - at least it's something different and doesn't open a can of worms.
- Superman blows up the Fortress with Luthor in it, only to turn back time to the point before Zod escaped. Which doesn't make much sense at all.
- Beats up the bully in the diner after turning back time. This makes Clark just seem like a jerk because now technically the two don't have prior history.

I think starting with the Paris sequence gets the film off to a better start as well. The Lester cut isn't devoid of issues, but I can look past them easier than the ones above.

I think a true Donner's cut would have been the better film. But sadly, that is not possible. As it stands right now, I find the Lester cut better.

 

[STARMAN]

I prefer the theatrical cut over the Donner version. I do like the Jor-El sequences. Overall, I have mixed feelings towards Superman II. I like some parts of it but there are junks of it I don't like.

 

[AnneFan]

From 'The Electronic Ghost of Metropolis!' (Superman #244, November 1971).

Superman flies underneath an atomic furnace and hoists it up into the air, lifting it into space like he does the elevator in the movie.

 

[The Batman]

^ Nice comparison. Another comic accurate part of the film was Superman outwitting the bad guys instead of beating them through using his powers.

 

[The Batman]

 

[AnneFan]

Love that whole ending sequence in the diner - order is restored. The sound of Rocky's hand after punching Clark's chest is perfect. You feel his hand is broken.

"This one's to go."

Few other comic panel comparisons:

 

[The Batman]

Yeah, I really don't get how people complain about the bully getting his in both this film and MOS. Superman, from his early beginnings, often used his powers against humans who would oppress others. So, watching Clark go back for the bully was very satisfying.

 

[AnneFan]

Yeah, I really don't get how people complain about the bully getting his in both this film and MOS. Superman, from his early beginnings, often used his powers against humans who would oppress others. So, watching Clark go back for the bully was very satisfying.

Agreed. In the second encounter Rocky was the first to initiate violence by throwing his punch. Afterwards, Clark simply ended the fued once and for all. The patrons were happy about it too based on their smiling faces.

 

[Mace Dolex]

As a kid I loved the hell out of the film and the Metropolis battle is still 100 x better than the one in MOS, and I guess because I'm was a kid and wasn't as nitpicky as some people are about the memory kiss and the new powers exibited by Superman and the Kryptonian villian's (that cellophane \S/ shield is still badass).

The Donner cut is an interesting and very well made "alternate" look at what SII might have turned out in 1981, their both good films but for that little 5 year old inside me I'll always prefer the theatrical version.

 

[AnneFan]

The new powers the escaped Kryptonians use don't bother me as much as they used to. Conceptually, I just take it these three villains have an added edge over Superman. Developing additional powers which the hero doesn't have - but don't ask me how this is the case. Supes throwing the cellophane shield is weird and has no prior grounding in the comics, but I guess that's his way of showing he has mysterious tricks of his own.

 

[The Batman]

I feel people nitpick the additional powers way too much. These were people who could fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes...who's to say he couldn't do other things as well?

 

[STARMAN]

I never had a problem with the additional powers. Nor the memory erasing kiss.

 

[AnneFan]

Superman/Clark has some pretty cool lines in this movie.

When pushed, he's pretty firm about what he means.

"General, would you care to step outside?"
"I expect better manners from my guests, Zod."
"Luthor, you poisonous snake."
"I've never seen garbage eat garbage before."

But I also love unapologetically cheery stuff like this:

"No, I'm sorry. Only one ride per customer."

 

[Gavan]

I believe Clark would have waited until marriage.

 

[The Batman]

http://www.empireonline.com/features/greatest-superhero-movies/p1

Very good showing for SII on this fan voted list.

 

[Spiderine]

I still remember growing up watching Superman II on primetime network TV. Those were the good ole days.

 

[SpideyVille]

I was watching the first film last night with my girlfriend, and it was her first time seeing the film, and my first time in a while and I kind of saw things in a new light. I had seen the documentary and heard and saw Donner's cut and realized that both those versions had their share of issues, but I was convinced that had things gone as planned, and Donner would have stood around to complete the project, I think Superman I and II could have been a huge epic movie broken up into two parts.

It's been a while since I've seen Superman II, so my memory forgets me, but I felt like Superman I ended in a way that set up the sequel, but the transition wasn't very smooth, and the fact that the movies were released two years apart didn't help either. But I could easily see Superman I ending with Superman turning back time, only to learn that by playing God, he changed something else, which leads to Zod being freed. So now he saves one disaster by forming another, and I feel like that issue could have been played up a bit more. This could have been a great lesson for Clark to learn early in his time as Superman, that there are repercussions for his action.

Now, I think Lois learning Clark was Superman could have been pushed a bit later on int he film, so the sex scene would be negated, but the film would end with her finding out and the two of them having a Happily Ever After type ending. I know at the time, Lois knowing his secret wasn't very popular in the comics, and it wasn't as accepted as it is today because Lois was expected to be smart, but dumb enough to not see past the disguise. But I feel storywise, if the two movies connected seamlessly and were shown back to back, you could have had this epic Superman story that was 5 hours combined, and saw him do battle with both Lex Luthor and Zod.