Superman Returns Superman Returns is in continuity with the Donner Cut of Superman II! (Spoilers)

[C. Lee]

Ok.....first things first......charl_huntress, calm down....you are going overboard with this. This attitude of yours where you think it's ok for you to be rude and name call people that don't agree with you is getting old real quick. Stop it now...or leave...I've talked to you before about this....I'm tired of it.


And since there is no reason to think that alien Kryptonian DNA should be able to combine with human DNA to produce a child....there was no reason what-so-ever for either Superman or Lois to suspect that their coupling would lead to offspring.

 

[The Kid]

Found out the hard way though, didn't they...

 

[C. Lee]

Found out the hard way though, didn't they...

It's called bad writing.

 

[Spade]

And since there is no reason to think that alien Kryptonian DNA should be able to combine with human DNA to produce a child....there was no reason what-so-ever for either Superman or Lois to suspect that their coupling would lead to offspring.

Yay! Someone else agrees with me!

Found out the hard way though, didn't they...

Most people, unfortunately, do. It doesn't help that the script makes Richard and Lois out to be yuppy parents, depicts Superman as a bit of a stalker and the child with no ulterior role outside of looking cute.

 

[NinjaCarm]

So let me get this straight. Superman reverses time AGAIN just like in the first Superman? LAME.

 

[BatFitz]

So let me get this straight. Superman reverses time AGAIN just like in the first Superman? LAME.

Let me explain. Superman turning back time was the original ending to Superman II. But when Richard Donner and company were forced to focus all their attention on the first movie to get it released by Christmas '78, they thought it made sense to put that ending on S1. And they intended to go back and write a new ending for SII, but were ultimately dropped from the picture. So here now, we have the REAL Superman II (well, almost) and this was the original intention. Although the turn back time thing doesn't makes sense in the fact that if Superman turned back time after ALL the events in SII, then there was no reason for him to go back and beat up that guy in the diner at the end...at that point he's just beating up some random guy. Haha!

 

[mego joe]

If Superman was always marketed to kids, why were Superman and Lois having a sexy sleepover in the Fortress in Superman II?


Surely that would have tramuatized a whole generation of kids from Superman....clearly it didnt, because you people are still here.

I think it's in the presentation. If a kid asked his parents what was going on in SII you could say something about just having a sleepover. It was tasteful and subtle. The emphasis is not on the sex but rather him giving up his powers to have a life with her. SR is flat out about them having had sex, and it is a harder presentation to explain to younger children, though younger children probably missed the point that SUperman learns that Jason is his son at the end.

 

[mego joe]

There's nothing chauvinist about it. If you think that two consenting adults can't have sex and end a relationship without knowing the woman is actually going to get pregnant, then you're just wrong. It happens all the time, not just to teenagers.

Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It also doesn't mean that the 'adults' are mature or responsible. It also doesn't mean it is quality material for the SUperman/ Lois relationship, or quality material for any character who is perceived as a role model.

They had sex, Superman had to end the relationship because of his obligations,

Why? He never ends it in the movie. The movie states that he leaves w/o telling her b/c he's afraid of getting hurt. Why is in necessary for him to end whatever vague out of context relationship they have? The movie says nothing about this. He doesn't end the relationship he just disappears like a coward w/o a word to Lois. THat's not ending a relationship, that's abandonning the woman you supposedly love.

left Earth, came back and found out he had a son. On top of that, he tells Lois that he'll be there for his son, something a dead beat father wouldn't do.

Superman is making up for his mistake.

What are the odds Lois actually trusts that he will be around? I wouldn't trust him if I were Lois.

Actually, there is no way he can make up for his mistake. Nothing he can do will ever make up for leaving Lois high and dry and missing the first 4 years of his son's life.

 

[mego joe]

On a side note...what is the right word for what Superman did?

Personally, I think dead beat IS the right word becasue he neglected the responsibiliity of his relationship with LOis and any potential pregnancy. In these types of situations you have to consider any possible outcomes including pregnancy as part of being responsible and then act accordingly. If you leave town w/o a word you are neglecting the responsibility, hence dead beat.

Or, more concisely, a-hole.

 

[mego joe]

And since there is no reason to think that alien Kryptonian DNA should be able to combine with human DNA to produce a child....there was no reason what-so-ever for either Superman or Lois to suspect that their coupling would lead to offspring.

Why not when SUperman looks EXACTLY like a human, has all the regular bodily functions of a human etc... . I would think that given this that it would seem even odds that they could produce a child together.

 

[Freddy_Krueger]

Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It also doesn't mean that the 'adults' are mature or responsible. It also doesn't mean it is quality material for the SUperman/ Lois relationship, or quality material for any character who is perceived as a role model.

I never said that it did make it right. But it happens. And just because Superman is a role model of sorts doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes. He's made mistakes in the comics, he's made mistakes in the movies. Just because he's Superman doesn't mean he should be infallible and perfect.

Why? He never ends it in the movie. The movie states that he leaves w/o telling her b/c he's afraid of getting hurt. Why is in necessary for him to end whatever vague out of context relationship they have? The movie says nothing about this. He doesn't end the relationship he just disappears like a coward w/o a word to Lois. THat's not ending a relationship, that's abandonning the woman you supposedly love.

Ummm...sorry. Once again, Superman Returns is a continuation of the first two Superman films. It doesn't need to state that he needed to end the relationship in this film simply because he ended it in Superman II. Whether or not you like that the Donner films state that Superman can't live as a mortal and still be Superman is moot, dems the rules in the movieverse.

So, no, he didn't disappear like a coward. He simply couldn't be with her. There was no abandonment.

What are the odds Lois actually trusts that he will be around? I wouldn't trust him if I were Lois.

That smile on her face at the end pretty much shows happiness. And trust. It's not like she was scowling at him at the end wondering where her child support money was.

Actually, there is no way he can make up for his mistake. Nothing he can do will ever make up for leaving Lois high and dry and missing the first 4 years of his son's life.

For a non-forgiving person maybe. And, once again, had he known he was having a child he never would have left. The whole purpose of his leaving was to find others like him, but the tragedy of it was that there was someone born that was literally a part of him.

People have this mistaken take on Superman that he's supposed to be perfect and infallible. That's just not the case. Hey, Superman admits in the film that he screwed up and was sorry for leaving Lois. He even promises her that he'll always be around for her and Jason. I don't know what more you'd want from a fictional character.

Then again, maybe I'm just a forgiving person.

 

[SeriousDuke]

I wouldn't say that Superman Returns is in continuity but... here is what I have to say about The Donner Cut.

I loved it! Everything up until the ending. Why the **** is he still reversing time, come up with something new! We saw this in Superman 1 and it still felt a little out of place, but to do it again!? Why!? I know that a lot of things were destroyed, but... they could have came up with something better and more original. That ending kind of ruined it for me.

The film was great, much more serious... but that ending!!! Grrr... maybe someone can reassure me that the ending wasn't so bad, but... until they do... grrrrrr. Until then, I will prefer the Lester ending with the kiss... that kiss was just so powerfull, she forgot the last couple of days... sounds better than turning the world back, AGAIN!

And, I also thought that Lois and Clark conceived their child when she stayed in the fortress of sollitued and they slept in the same bed... that's what I tend to think... not that they had a relationship afterwards.......

 

[bsquad]

yes
So, Superman placed HIMSELF in a position of not knowing. That is, Superman's "not knowing he had a child on the way" was HIS FAULT, not Lois', not anyone else's.

I have to say that I think that was one of the points they were trying to make. On one hand you can understand Superman and what's bothering him but on the other hand you can understand Lois. I even like that Lois pointed out that his reason for not saying goodbye was stupid to her. I think that goes back down to them trying to add a little drama to Superman's world, in a non physical way.

I think that they at no point they ask the viewer to completly side with Superman, which I think is such a brave step. It even makes what Brandon Routh said in his earlier interviews before the film hit, about Superman returning and being a bit selfish, make more sense. He's at a point where he's lost and as he continues to be who he is he having trouble balancing these 2 lives. Not to mention he did exactly what Jor-El told him not to do in SM 1--he interfered instead of just using his powers to see and hear where his strengths are needed. He's been interfering for a while though, the more he lived like a regular person.

I loved the irony that the connection he went into space looking for was on Earth all this time and he didn't know. And because of that he has to make a sacrifice we know it kills him to make but he brought upon himself. I'm just saying I think that was what they were going for. Did it work or not? Obviously your miles may vary on that one. Personally The whole debate reminds me of something Dwayne McDuffie said in an interview when he pointed out how hard it is to write for Superman because its hard to make him make a bad decision or have an off day because people would automatically say that he's Superman he would'nt make a bad decision or have an off day.

(I hope that does'nt come off as me being a jerk or something. If so sorry in advance because i'm definatly not trying to be one just trying to join the conversation)

 

[buggs0268]

I wouldn't say that Superman Returns is in continuity but... here is what I have to say about The Donner Cut.

I loved it! Everything up until the ending. Why the **** is he still reversing time, come up with something new! We saw this in Superman 1 and it still felt a little out of place, but to do it again!? Why!? I know that a lot of things were destroyed, but... they could have came up with something better and more original. That ending kind of ruined it for me.

The film was great, much more serious... but that ending!!! Grrr... maybe someone can reassure me that the ending wasn't so bad, but... until they do... grrrrrr. Until then, I will prefer the Lester ending with the kiss... that kiss was just so powerfull, she forgot the last couple of days... sounds better than turning the world back, AGAIN!

And, I also thought that Lois and Clark conceived their child when she stayed in the fortress of sollitued and they slept in the same bed... that's what I tend to think... not that they had a relationship afterwards.......

Again, the reversing back time ending was supposed to be for S2. What happened was that originally at the end of 1 supes pulls Lois in the car out of the crevace just in time before she is crushed. Mank talks about how Supes says some line to Lois about flipping the car. At this point, the Salkinds had no more money, and the whole movie was about to be evicted from Pinewood. Donner went to Warner's directly, sick of having to deal with the Salkind's, and got a commitment for more money so they could finish it and not get kicked off of the pinewood lot. Warner's saw how good the movie was. They also realized the B/S that the Salkind's was doing to Donner and put Mr. Greenlaw, a Warner's guy, as associate producer to make sure that Donner got what he needed. It was at this time that Warner's also suggested to stop shooting Superman 2 and just concentrate on finishing one as they had already missed the intended summer 1978 release date and it looked like they were going to miss the Christmasss 1978 release date too. Donner, Mank and Warner's realized that STM didn't have a powerfull ending, and it just went into a preivew of S2. Warner's suggested putting their best effect, reversing time back, into the conclusion of 1 because they wanted the film to really be good, and who knows if 2 would get done if 1 bombed. So , and so Mank wrote that Lois dies and supes find her dead and then gets so upset he defies his dad and changes human history. This was a great climax to 1. They only had about 25 percent more to film on the now abandoned Superman 2, and intended to go back and finish it after 1's release. Since they used the turn back time effect in 1, Donner and Mank had every intention to come up with a new, no reverse time ending for 2 when they started back on it. Since the first movie was a hit, the Salkinds felt they didn't need to bring back Donner, so they fired him, and the only donner made ending was the turn back time ending. Since the film is 30 years old, and it's main stars are old or deceased, they could not go and reshoot a newer ending.

 

[War Party]

That whole arguement between Showtime and Charl was entertaining. The only thing I have to say about the subject is, who cares.

 

[C. Lee]

Why not when SUperman looks EXACTLY like a human, has all the regular bodily functions of a human etc... . I would think that given this that it would seem even odds that they could produce a child together.

There are millions of ACTUAL humans who look like humans and have the regular bodily functions as humans....and they are unable to concieve children......so why should an alien lifeform that had a body radically different from humans on the microcelluar level be more capable of combining it's genetic material with a human's to produce a child that those millions of actual human beings?

 

[buggs0268]

I still think it could never happen in Donner's S2 as he was Kryptonian at the time for two reasons:

1. DNA
2. He reversed time to pretty much sometime after he threw the missle into space, but before it blew up and freed the villians, so the deed never happened.

It would not have happened following the Lester version as, although he was human when they had sex, he was human, and so the kid should have shot out a normal mortal.

 

[charl_huntress]

Personally, I think dead beat IS the right word becasue he neglected the responsibiliity of his relationship with LOis and any potential pregnancy. In these types of situations you have to consider any possible outcomes including pregnancy as part of being responsible and then act accordingly. If you leave town w/o a word you are neglecting the responsibility, hence dead beat.

Or, more concisely, a-hole.

Thank you

 

[War Party]

uh, it's only a movie.

 

[charl_huntress]

uh, it's only a movie.

Yeah, that's why we are in the Superman Returns forum talking about said movie.

Jeeze...what have you been reading, pal?

 

[War Party]

Yeah, that's why we are in the Superman Returns forum talking about said movie.

Jeeze...what have you been reading, pal?

I been reading a discussion that's going no where.

 

[charl_huntress]

I been reading a discussion that's going no where.

Why are you still here then?

 

[War Party]

Why are you still here then?

Just looking around. I just saw the movie, so I was seeing what people thought of it.

 

[charl_huntress]

Just looking around. I just saw the movie, so I was seeing what people thought of it.

*nods head* Now you know.

 

[War Party]

*nods head* Now you know.

I guess I do. I liked the movie. Never read a Superman comic ever and I enjoyed it. It definitely was flawed from a script stand point, but it was still good. But I see you will obviously disagree with me and I don't feel like talking to you. Back to the misc. film forums. It's better there.