Superman: The Movie vs Batman (1989)

[Goshdarn Batman]

About that ol' crazy, killing Batman:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25794663&postcount=338

Yes

 

[schereZada]

About that ol' crazy, killing Batman:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25794663&postcount=338

My thoughts are this was a great character arc done over two movies. Batman deliberately killing thugs is a fresh, interesting take on the character done in cinema. These movies shouldn't have to be crucified to the pages of comic books.

Afternoon, Blitzkrieg Bop.

Nice thoughtful post there. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Quasimod0]

Really difficult choice. They are both classics.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I agree that Batman killed the Joker's goons, the fat guy (Batman hates fat people, just read the golden age comics. Snapping fat people's necks, strangling them etc. It's easy for you to stay in shape, rich boy), but we didn't see the fire breather die.

But like I said earlier, almost all of the live action Batmen have killed people. Keaton, Bale and Kilmer. Not Clooney and Adam West though...and I doubt the two guys from the serials did it. I can't remember.

And by the way, didn't the Animated Batman punch Joker from a train in the Mad Love episode? Cruel.

Then there was the episode where he's fighting these two thugs on the outside of a plane, and he punches one, sending him flying into the other and they both fall off into the ocean and are never seen again.

He also showed little regard for the life of Mr. Freeze when he strapped him to his own ice bomb and intentionally dropped it out of the plane into the ocean.

 

[Keehar]

I agree that Batman killed the Joker's goons, the fat guy (Batman hates fat people, just read the golden age comics. Snapping fat people's necks, strangling them etc. It's easy for you to stay in shape, rich boy), but we didn't see the fire breather die.

You didn't need to see the fire breather's burned dead body to know he died.

But like I said earlier, almost all of the live action Batmen have killed people. Keaton, Bale and Kilmer. Not Clooney and Adam West though...and I doubt the two guys from the serials did it. I can't remember.

Keaton's the only one who did it for pleasure and not out of necessity to save lives.

Batunisher. I also know that it wasn't just fans but also a lot of DC Batman writers hated it too.

And by the way, didn't the Animated Batman punch Joker from a train in the Mad Love episode? Cruel.

Yes and that was terrible. The only saving grace was Paul Dini revealing Joker lived at the end.

Then there was the episode where he's fighting these two thugs on the outside of a plane, and he punches one, sending him flying into the other and they both fall off into the ocean and are never seen again.

They were flying over the ocean at low altitude. He didn't deliberately knock them off the plane. He punched one who was attacking him, that one stumbled into the other goon, and they both fell into the water.

Never seen again, what does that mean, you never saw them again for the rest of the remaining 5 minutes of the episode? How does that make them dead?

He also showed little regard for the life of Mr. Freeze when he strapped him to his own ice bomb and intentionally dropped it out of the plane into the ocean.

Mr. Freeze was a dying head in a jar sitting on a robot's body. Give me a break.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I agree that Batman killed the Joker's goons, the fat guy (Batman hates fat people, just read the golden age comics. Snapping fat people's necks, strangling them etc. It's easy for you to stay in shape, rich boy), but we didn't see the fire breather die.

But like I said earlier, almost all of the live action Batmen have killed people. Keaton, Bale and Kilmer. Not Clooney and Adam West though...and I doubt the two guys from the serials did it. I can't remember.

And by the way, didn't the Animated Batman punch Joker from a train in the Mad Love episode? Cruel.

We didn't see the fire-breather die, but we didn't have to. Just like the Tattooed Strongman and the Joker's goons, it's obvious what happened. Who is the fat guy that Batman killed? I remember Penguin killing the overweight clown, but I'm trying to remember who you're talking about. Was it Batman or BR?

 

[schereZada]

He shot down loads of Joker's men at the parade. The fire blowing guy was killed. He was set on fire and seen running away screaming. Pretty obvious what his fate was. It also showed how unnecessarily brutal Keaton's Batman was. He didn't need to burn that thug alive to beat him. He's just a brute in a Bat suit. I didn't say Penguin and Catwoman were killed by Batman. I said they nearly were. He punched her off a building, and he squashed Penguin's duck car and it's only by movie magic that Penguin managed to get his fat ass out in the space of 2 seconds and survive.

I really don't remember seeing anyone being killed by Batman at the parade. I might be wrong, of course. Now, they were there, gassing people and carrying guns, so the people were in imminent danger and actually dying. Something like that happened in TDKR when Batman killed Thalia and the driver (although shaking and battering an atomic bomb is not the smartest thing to do either, but movie magic is part of movies, you see? ).

The fire-blowing demon was not killed in the movie. He was set on fire, many people have been severely burnt without dying from it. It's not a cute thing to do, but neither is crippling a guy like Batman did in The Dark Knight (Batman is aggressive and violent like that you see). But it was winter. Gotham's streets were covered in now, so all he had to do was rolling over the floor.

Yep, neither Catwoman nor Penguin were killed.

Two Face died though. Because Batman threw all those coins knowing Two Face would lose control.

I don't care what Batman was like in 1939. I am pretty sure there wasn't any Batcave, or Gotham City, or Batmobiles, or Alfred or other Batman essentials we wouldn't want to do without in a Batman movie in 1939.

Oh, you should care about it. It had great elements to the character. And it was a good thing Burton added Alfred, the batmobile an the essentials to the mix. But the important thing is that, by the end of Batman Returns he had learned that killing doesn't solve things.

I don't consider Batman killing a villain to save lives in a desperate situation cold blooded murder. That's what being an executioner would be. Burton's Batman did not have to bomb Axis to shut it down. He had already stopped Joker's poison balloons when he shot his men and tried to shoot him. He did not have to kill Penguin's men to stop them.

As I said before, Joker's goons were armed. In fact after Batman took the balloons, they started to shoot the guns. People were in danger right there. Axis bombed down made sure no other massive poisoning would take place.

Now what Penguin's men did Batman kill again? The strongman. That's it.

Batunisher was a disgrace. Burton's entire take on Batman was bad. It's lucky Returns got a backlash for all it's violence because I'd take Schumacher any day over Burton. Schumacher may have camped it up, but he understood Batman's character more than Burton ever did. Burton's are bottom of my Batman movie list. The only good thing about them was that the first movie's dark take on Batman allowed the animated series to be made. Every cloud has a silver lining.

Schumacher understood Batman so well that he killed the whole franchise single-handedly (turning Two Face into a cackling buffoon in the process and completely stripping Mr. freeze and Poison Ivy from anything valuable in them). That's the kind of savior batfans don't deserve. Not many Batman fan or DC writers loved that or didn't consider it a disgrace.

 

[Keehar]

I really don't remember seeing anyone being killed by Batman at the parade. I might be wrong, of course. Now, they were there, gassing people and carrying guns, so the people were in imminent danger and actually dying. Something like that happened in TDKR when Batman killed Thalia and the driver (although shaking and battering an atomic bomb is not the smartest thing to do either, but movie magic is part of movies, you see

You are wrong. Re-watch the scene for yourself. It is impossible to miss all the shots of Batman firing on Joker's men and them being hit by them. They were not gassing anyone any more. Batman got rid of the gas balloons. The streets were cleared of civilians because Joker's men scared them all away by firing their guns into the air because Joker wanted time alone or something stupid like that. Batunisher didn't have to gun them down.

The fire-blowing demon was not killed in the movie. He was set on fire, many people have been severely burnt without dying from it. It's not a cute thing to do, but neither is crippling a guy like Batman did in The Dark Knight (Batman is aggressive and violent like that you see). But it was winter. Gotham's streets were covered in now, so all he had to do was rolling over the floor.

The fire blowing guy was killed. The movie presents it like he doesn't survive. His whole body is set on fire, and he runs away screaming. He's dead. You don't have to see the body to be certain of it.

Batunisher is a needlessly violent brute to use such needless excessive force on one thug he should be able to deal with effortlessly. The thug did not even have a hostage or anything.

Two Face died though. Because Batman threw all those coins knowing Two Face would lose control.

Two Face was about to shoot Chase, Robin and Batman. He couldn't get to Two Face because he was too far out of reach. They were standing on narrow ledge over a pit of spikes which doesn't give any dodge room. Desperate action to save lives. Not done needlessly. He probably could have tried another way to stop him but I think it was just quick spur of the moment desperate move.

Oh, you should care about it. It had great elements to the character. And it was a good thing Burton added Alfred, the batmobile an the essentials to the mix. But the important thing is that, by the end of Batman Returns he had learned that killing doesn't solve things.

That's not my interpretation of the ending.

I don't see how him trying to stop someone from killing someone else makes him realize killing is bad. He saves lives all the time. That's nothing to do with him enjoying killing bad guys himself.

As I said before, Joker's goons were armed. In fact after Batman took the balloons, they started to shoot the guns. People were in danger right there. Axis bombed down made sure no other massive poisoning would take place.

Why should it matter if Joker's goons were armed. Batman faces armed men daily. He doesn't kill every armed person he meets. Nobody was in danger. He saved the crowd. The people all ran off. Only Joker and his men were left there and he gunned them down and then he tried to shoot Joker but for some silly reason he missed even though his gun sights locked onto Joker's body.

It's just a stupid movie.

Now what Penguin's men did Batman kill again? The strongman. That's it.

And the fire blower.

Schumacher understood Batman so well that he killed the whole franchise single-handedly (turning Two Face into a cackling buffoon in the process and completely stripping Mr. freeze and Poison Ivy from anything valuable in them). That's the kind of savior batfans don't deserve. Not many Batman fan or DC writers loved that or didn't consider it a disgrace.

Batman Forever did not kill the franchise. I think it made more money than Batman Returns. WB killed the franchise by making Schumacher go so campy in Batman and Robin by turning it into a big toy commercial movie. They told him they were trying to sell toys. Even with those limitations his Bruce Wayne and Batman material hit closer than Burton's ever did. Schumacher wanted to make a serious toned Batman movie. He wanted to try doing a Batman Year One kind of story after Batman and Robin too I heard. It was going to happen until WB decided not to.

I would take Schumacher's Riddler, Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze over Burton's villains any day, because while they might be camp, they were at least true to their characters, and I liked them a lot more. Two Face and Bane were done badly I give you that. But Burton still has him beat 3-2 in the bad villain characterizations.

 

[Keehar]

We didn't see the fire-breather die, but we didn't have to. Just like the Tattooed Strongman and the Joker's goons, it's obvious what happened. Who is the fat guy that Batman killed? I remember Penguin killing the overweight clown, but I'm trying to remember who you're talking about. Was it Batman or BR?

This person gets it.

I think the fat guy he means is the strong man.

 

[Lantern Venom]

This person gets it.

I think the fat guy he means is the strong man.

Ah, I see. I should have guessed that, but a man-mountain like Zumwalt doesn't register in my mind as a "fat" guy. I also can't talk about that guy without thinking, "Nose hurt, Hawks?" That's just burned into my brain. t:

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Superman: The Movie

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

I have voted for Superman The Movie. Although I love Batman (1989) as well.

For me, Superman The Movie is perfection right up until we are introduced to Otis at Metropolis train station.
The film takes an immediate veer towards slapstick several times after this and suffers to a degree as a consequence.
However, it gets more things right than wrong. For instance who doesn't hear the word "Superman" in the music during the opening credits? Who isn't incredibly moved at the scene in Smallville cemetery when Clark says "All those things I can do. All those powers, and I couldn't even save him." And, the scene in the corn field when Clark tells his Earth Mother that he has to leave her.

So for all the emotional impacts S:TM had on me, yep even when I originally saw it as a pimple faced 14 year old, and even taking into account of the excessive humour in the latter half of the movie.
This film is still one of the best if not the best comic book adaptations. It really does have a sense of verisimilitude. Which is a word the movie makers lived by when putting this motion picture together.
As a lot of others have said, it is a movie where the titular character is front and foremost for the majority of the time, which is a good thing I say.

And Superman The Movie may well be John Williams best ever movie score.

As for Christopher Reeve, I don't think you will ever find an actor that ever does a (comic book or otherwise) character as much honour in bringing them to life as he did.
Every time you see Christopher on screen as Clark or Superman, you buy into the performance.

 

[DCW]

About that ol' crazy, killing Batman:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25794663&postcount=338

Excellent post and points. I love Burton's Batman movies but this made me appreciate them even more.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

This person gets it.

I think the fat guy he means is the strong man.

Ah, I see. I should have guessed that, but a man-mountain like Zumwalt doesn't register in my mind as a "fat" guy. I also can't talk about that guy without thinking, "Nose hurt, Hawks?" That's just burned into my brain. t:

You're right, I googled him. He's not really fat.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You're right, I googled him. He's not really fat.

Check out Over the Top if you've never seen it. He was more than just a big guy; he could really grab and audience's attention with his facial expressions and voice. It's a shame that he died because this golden age of comic book movies would have been fertile ground for him. He would have made a perfect Executioner or Solomon Grundy.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Check out Over the Top if you've never seen it. He was more than just a big guy; he could really grab and audience's attention with his facial expressions and voice. It's a shame that he died because this golden age of comic book movies would have been fertile ground for him. He would have made a perfect Executioner or Solomon Grundy.

So he's dead? That's sad when did it happen?

Over The Top...Is that the arm wrestling movie with Sylvester Stallone? Never seen it, but I will check it out