Superman Video Game

[Nathan]

The Arkham games took away nothing that makes Batman, Batman. He had all his gadgets. He has no powers, hence why he can be confined to an island in Asylum and City. Superman can't, he can fly, and he can't be stopped. So how do you stop him?

Simple, by coming up with a Story that forces him to stay at a certain place. Why would I want to fly to China, Europe or Africa, if goddamn Darkseid and his forces are trashing Metropolis? Just because he can go anywhere, doesn't mean he has to. It's the same deal with Batman. He could have jumped around Gotham City, but he was forced to stay at the Arkham Asylum for the entire game, because that's where he needed to be.

 

[DrCosmic]

The idea (that other superhero games haven't really dealt with) of alternating between average man and superhero identity could be interesting if it was done right. Clark Kent is more interesting than Superman. If you watch the original superman movie, as soon as he becomes Superman and we get past the origin story, he becomes flat and uninteresting. Saying that though, we also had Smallville in which every character was odious to appeal to the teenage hipster nihilism.

Yeah, as mentioned, we have had games that let you be the mild mannered version, and inevitably, people want to get back to the cool stuff.

If you read the comics, you'll find that Superman is very interesting as an adult.

Simple, by coming up with a Story that forces him to stay at a certain place. Why would I want to fly to China, Europe or Africa, if goddamn Darkseid and his forces are trashing Metropolis? Just because he can go anywhere, doesn't mean he has to. It's the same deal with Batman. He could have jumped around Gotham City, but he was forced to stay at the Arkham Asylum for the entire game, because that's where he needed to be.

No such story exists. There can't be a constant fight, there have to be lulls and pacing in a story. And during those lulls, why not explore how powerful the guy really is and test my limits? Players do that, that's why the game designers of Arkham City put up physical barriers to leave Arkham. Good games do that.

I take it back... one type of such story exists. If he's stuck off-world, and he's doesn't have FTL flight to go elsewhere. He's trapped on that planet, say War World or Apokalips or whatever. The designers would only have to come up with art assets for a small perhaps not so diverse planet. Perhaps like Shadow of the Colossus, travel could be a big part of the gameplay and pacing.

The Arkham games took away nothing that makes Batman, Batman. He had all his gadgets. He has no powers, hence why he can be confined to an island in Asylum and City. Superman can't, he can fly, and he can't be stopped. So how do you stop him? Use a different Superman, for example, the one who isn't killed by bullets, but still finds them a nuisance, he's more powerful than a locomotive, but he can't tow a series of planets, or sneeze out a galaxy. He's faster than a speeding bullet, but he can't travel faster than the speed of light, break the bonds of infinity and have to be stopped by God himself.

This is around the power level I'd like as well. Also, I'd like to see upgrades available to take him higher, so that the player 'earns' the ability to shrug off bullets, making them feel even more super.

 

[Nathan]

No such story exists. There can't be a constant fight, there have to be lulls and pacing in a story. And during those lulls, why not explore how powerful the guy really is and test my limits? Players do that, that's why the game designers of Arkham City put up physical barriers to leave Arkham. Good games do that.

I take it back... one type of such story exists. If he's stuck off-world, and he's doesn't have FTL flight to go elsewhere. He's trapped on that planet, say War World or Apokalips or whatever. The designers would only have to come up with art assets for a small perhaps not so diverse planet. Perhaps like Shadow of the Colossus, travel could be a big part of the gameplay and pacing.

Still all a matter of story. You want a break of pace, you let Superman follow leads to figure out the whereabouts of a criminal or hostage. Have him meet up with Lois as Clark, doing interviews, etc. Heck, this is the moment you could introduce Dialogue trees, have him as Clark Kent squeeze out info, let him be able to hear the heartbeat, to know whether the person is lying or not. Use his x-ray vision to see what's happening in the next room and super hearing to hear what people are talking about at the end of the room.

Again, the world doesn't need to be Superman's sandbox. What the game needs first, is a good and tight story.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Yea i agree with Nathan. a lot of you are making things way more complicated than they need to be. Let's hope any devs that are thinking about doing a Superman game aren't as ridiculous as some of the users here.

 

[DrCosmic]

There's a reason that it takes 200 people 2 years to make a game. Because it's complicated. I'm sorry if some people think it's simple.

Still all a matter of story. You want a break of pace, you let Superman follow leads to figure out the whereabouts of a criminal or hostage. Have him meet up with Lois as Clark, doing interviews, etc. Heck, this is the moment you could introduce Dialogue trees, have him as Clark Kent squeeze out info, let him be able to hear the heartbeat, to know whether the person is lying or not. Use his x-ray vision to see what's happening in the next room and super hearing to hear what people are talking about at the end of the room.

Again, the world doesn't need to be Superman's sandbox. What the game needs first, is a good and tight story.

That's true, it needs a good and tight story. But not all stories can be done in a video game, can they? Moreover, if its a good story, there will still be lulls in the story, like the ones you describe (meeting up with Lois, exploring with super senses) and at that point players will need to be physically herded, and if you can't do that, you can't make a good game. Sandbox or not, it's just that simple.

And I really think a quality Superman game will learn from the Arkham franchise and just put the highlights of the character in, and make those awesome, instead of trying to encompass their whole life.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Never said it was simple but we don't have to have Supes flying to different continents to have a good game. People are overthinking what needs to be done in a Superman game

 

[DrCosmic]

How are we overthinking? Good games physically herd the player. How can we do that with Superman? It's a very simple, very real, hopefully solveable problem.

 

[Nathan]

You know, when you say 'physically herd the player', I think about stuff like this, not being able to travel the entire globe on a whim. What's the point to travel to all these places, if the story doesn't require me to be there. Just because we'd be playing as Superman, doesn't mean we should be able to juggle Elephants in Africa, just because we're bored or feel like it.

 

[DrCosmic]

Nathan, this is the third time I've pointed out to you that the whole game will not be a fight scene, there will not always be a story reason to not explore. So how do you prevent players from going to Africa? I'm not saying they should, I'm saying they will want to, so how do you stop it in a way that is not a buzz-kill? If you don't know, you're in good company, Rocksteady doesn't know either, so they're not making the game.

So again
1) You can't trap the player with story
2) I agree they should not be going to Africa on a whim
3) My question is: what do you do about it?

 

[Nathan]

By simply not doing it. Done. As Pat said, concessions have to be made. Not having Earth as an open world is one. If that means neither you nor Llama are going to enjoy the game, I think that's a loss the developers will survive. And I just pointed out earlier, other possibilities other than fighting. If I can come up with stuff just from the top of my head, I think people who are actually paid to think up stuff for a game, could come up with better ideas.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

so how do you stop it in a way that is not a buzz-kill?

By simply not letting the player do it. Period. Its not that difficult. If you have some player try and fly out of Metroplis, have Superman stop at an invisible wall and say something along the lines of "I can't leave Metropolis, it needs me right now". Its not hard. They did it in Arkham City. To prevent you from going into a building they didn't want you to, they either locked the door or had Batman say "I dont have time for this right now". If you tried to glide out of AC, they would just have Batman turn around and head back to AC. Batman was needed in AC, there was nothing he needed to be doing in Gotham. The SAME thing could apply to Superman. Have the story focus on Metropolis with Superman's presence being needed there. You'll have a few people who'll complain that they can't fly into outer space, but they'll get over it.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm sorry Nathan, you're misinformed. You may want to read up on Invisible Walls if you sincerely think this is a problem only a small minority will experience. (Or take a look at any quality game and observe how it physically herds the player.) I pointed out why your suggestions would not work, and even pointed out how people paid to think of up stuff for a game did, in fact, not come up with better ideas.

"This part of the game will suck" is never a concession in a good game. It's a concession made in games like Superman 64.

The reason I think putting him on War World (and letting him Sandbox there) would work is:
A) He can destroy stuff and feel powerful without the player feeling guilty
B) He doesn't have other places to want to go to, the only relevance for the world is the story, encouraging even explorers to follow the narrative
C) The game world is easier to design and implement than the entire planet Earth, and offers more variety than the city of Metropolis.

 

[DrCosmic]

By simply not letting the player do it. Period. Its not that difficult. If you have some player try and fly out of Metroplis, have Superman stop at an invisible wall and say something along the lines of "I can't leave Metropolis, it needs me right now". Its not hard. They did it in Arkham City. To prevent you from going into a building they didn't want you to, they either locked the door or had Batman say "I dont have time for this right now". If you tried to glide out of AC, they would just have Batman turn around and head back to AC. Batman was needed in AC, there was nothing he needed to be doing in Gotham. The SAME thing could apply to Superman. Have the story focus on Metropolis with Superman's presence being needed there. You'll have a few people who'll complain that they can't fly into outer space, but they'll get over it.

Good games, like Arkham City have physical limitations, like the ones you listed. Locked doors, water you fall into and have to crawl out of, that are reinforced by the story. The SAME cannot be done for Superman. Even with a great story, invisible walls still suck. Good games don't have them.

And you're right, it's not hard. Making a bad game is very, very easy. Just keep making concessions and assume the entire audience is as into the story as you are.

So, can we throw invisible walls out? So what other solutions do we have?

 

[Nathan]

This is getting really stupid. Ok, let's go with your no invisible walls thing, make the world open and have Superman fly to Hong Kong. Now what? Tell me what are we doing there, other than admire the city, while Metropolis, Star Labs or the Fortress of Solitude are getting reduced to rubbles? Please, go on. I'm waiting.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Doing the Silver/Bronze and Prelaucnh power levels would work on Warworld or Apokolips. But it won't work without at the very least a minor level of annoyance if you go into Metropolis. Firstly there is the invisible walls issue which isn't that bad. But once the story mode is over the game has no value, in City there are at least groups of thugs who can provide some challenge. Even in Asylum there is Riddler challeges. With Superman there aren't many places you can go with a finished story. Bank robberies pose little to no threat, crashing planes too, because of his speed and strength.

 

[Nathan]

You could always have the thugs be Intergang equipped with Apokolips tech. Things like falling planes, could be made challenging by trying to catch it, without it breaking apart. Kinda like in the Returns Movie.

 

[KALEL114]

There is a reason why all the previous games have been terrible. There's a reason why no current dev wants to touch the franchise. The character is just too complicated to have a good and proper game. Don't get me wrong. I would love for a dev to pull it off, but no one has in the past and it doesn't seem like anyone wants to touch it now.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Good games, like Arkham City have physical limitations, like the ones you listed. Locked doors, water you fall into and have to crawl out of, that are reinforced by the story. The SAME cannot be done for Superman. Even with a great story, invisible walls still suck. Good games don't have them.

And you're right, it's not hard. Making a bad game is very, very easy. Just keep making concessions and assume the entire audience is as into the story as you are.

So, can we throw invisible walls out? So what other solutions do we have?

You're still over thinking this. Superman can't leave Metropolis based on whats happening in the story. Thats it. No other discussion would need to be had. Why am i not allowed to leave Skyrim? Because a prompt pops up and tells me i can't go that way. Thats it. Thats all thats needed. Like Nathan stated, this argument is getting really stupid. Having a reason to keep Supes from flying all over the world isn't worth the discussion. You just dont allow the player to do it.

Next topic.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm not sure why you're waiting. Remember "I agree they should not be going to Africa on a whim?" Are you reading my posts at all, Nathan? I've posted my idea a few times by now, but perhaps it will be more clear if I address the entire process logically.

1) What is the goal of a Superman Game?
For people to have fun being Superman.

2) What is so fun about Superman?
Well, he's crazy powerful, and he flies, and he's a really inspirational moral figure.

3) How can we turn those things into gameplay?
Well, environmental destruction is always a good way to show power. Giving him charge up/build up moves with great effects. We can give him his powers from the comics for utility. The well reviewed thing from SR was the flying, we may want to adapt that, and it also felt powerful, it just needs improved controls. Being inspirational is more of a challenge, perhaps a branching storyline Bioware-style decisions in the storyline.

4) What are the challenges that will make that Gameplay more fun?
Well, for him to feel powerful, you need to put him up against very powerful enemies, who also have great environmental destructive power to show their greatness. Kryptonians, Alien Invaders, Scientific Monstrosities and combinations thereof. There can be challenges perhaps in bosses or perhaps rescues, that can't be punched away, and require use of one of his many powers.

With the inspirational stuff, it can't be making bad guy/evil/renegade/whatever decisions, that's not what makes Superman great/fun/cool. Use decisions that have no right answer. Real moral dilemmas where either decision can be defended. That way you hearken back to what made Silver Age Superman stories great.

5) Where Should we Set the game in order to deliver all that great gameplay?
Well, it can't be Metropolis, because there you have to keep the bad guys and Superman from causing too much destruction, or random destruction (can't have them take out the Daily Planet).

We need somewhere he can cut loose. Somewhere with a plethora of alien monstrosities, a target for both Kryptonians and Luthor. Apokolips is a great idea, but all things there are of Darkseid. On War World, you can even use War World's gladiator/arena premise to fuel Superman being a powerhouse and keep a steam of combatants coming at him all over a war torn destroyable planet. You can even blow up the planet at the end for a truly epic finish.

6) Are there any technical obstructions to overcome?
Well, yeah, creating a planet. Fortunately, such things can be done with procedural generation, assuming, of course, that you're not trying to add in a lot of detail to everything, you can have a tiny planet full of landscapes and hand design the arenas (whether they look like arenas or not) that the fights take place in.

7) Can we tell a good story in these logical limitations?
War World? Superman? Big fights? Deep moral dilemmas? Lex Luthor with some plot involving War World's otherworldly resources? Travel, rescue puzzles and moral dilemmas for pacing between epic boss fights? You bet your bottom dollar we can.

So while you're clinging to the discredited idea of a constant fight scene in order to keep Superman in Metropolis, I'm waiting for you to take apart my actual idea, so I can make it better.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

I dont thnk taking the action to a place like War World is a bad idea, i just dont think that happens. I think anyone who tackles Superman will want to keep him in his iconic location of Metropolis.

 

[DrCosmic]

AA found great success taking Batman out of Metropolis. Iconic doesn't necessarily make for great gameplay.

 

[Nathan]

I wouldn't even confine him to Metropolis. My solution would be set pieces, that are wide enough to fly and knock people around. And they'd be more detailed than creating a low detail planet, just so we can travel with no invisible walls.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

AA found great success taking Batman out of Metropolis. Iconic doesn't necessarily make for great gameplay.

Right, but Arkham Asylum was still infused with the same look of Gotham. It was very "gotham-esque". We weren't taking Batman and placing him in San Francisco. I think if they were to do a Superman game, they would try and stick Supes in a location that the avg gamer would recognize, which is why i say they'd stick with Metropolis.

 

[terry78]

The best Superman game to me will always be the Atari 2600 version. It actually had **** affect other **** and forced you to do certain things, even back then. Current games are basically you being Superman just kicking and punching the **** out of mooks.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I'm not sure why you're waiting. Remember "I agree they should not be going to Africa on a whim?" Are you reading my posts at all, Nathan? I've posted my idea a few times by now, but perhaps it will be more clear if I address the entire process logically.

1) What is the goal of a Superman Game?
For people to have fun being Superman.

2) What is so fun about Superman?
Well, he's crazy powerful, and he flies, and he's a really inspirational moral figure.

3) How can we turn those things into gameplay?
Well, environmental destruction is always a good way to show power. Giving him charge up/build up moves with great effects. We can give him his powers from the comics for utility. The well reviewed thing from SR was the flying, we may want to adapt that, and it also felt powerful, it just needs improved controls. Being inspirational is more of a challenge, perhaps a branching storyline Bioware-style decisions in the storyline.

4) What are the challenges that will make that Gameplay more fun?
Well, for him to feel powerful, you need to put him up against very powerful enemies, who also have great environmental destructive power to show their greatness. Kryptonians, Alien Invaders, Scientific Monstrosities and combinations thereof. There can be challenges perhaps in bosses or perhaps rescues, that can't be punched away, and require use of one of his many powers.

With the inspirational stuff, it can't be making bad guy/evil/renegade/whatever decisions, that's not what makes Superman great/fun/cool. Use decisions that have no right answer. Real moral dilemmas where either decision can be defended. That way you hearken back to what made Silver Age Superman stories great.

5) Where Should we Set the game in order to deliver all that great gameplay?
Well, it can't be Metropolis, because there you have to keep the bad guys and Superman from causing too much destruction, or random destruction (can't have them take out the Daily Planet).

We need somewhere he can cut loose. Somewhere with a plethora of alien monstrosities, a target for both Kryptonians and Luthor. Apokolips is a great idea, but all things there are of Darkseid. On War World, you can even use War World's gladiator/arena premise to fuel Superman being a powerhouse and keep a steam of combatants coming at him all over a war torn destroyable planet. You can even blow up the planet at the end for a truly epic finish.

6) Are there any technical obstructions to overcome?
Well, yeah, creating a planet. Fortunately, such things can be done with procedural generation, assuming, of course, that you're not trying to add in a lot of detail to everything, you can have a tiny planet full of landscapes and hand design the arenas (whether they look like arenas or not) that the fights take place in.

7) Can we tell a good story in these logical limitations?
War World? Superman? Big fights? Deep moral dilemmas? Lex Luthor with some plot involving War World's otherworldly resources? Travel, rescue puzzles and moral dilemmas for pacing between epic boss fights? You bet your bottom dollar we can.

So while you're clinging to the discredited idea of a constant fight scene in order to keep Superman in Metropolis, I'm waiting for you to take apart my actual idea, so I can make it better.

I dont thnk taking the action to a place like War World is a bad idea, i just dont think that happens. I think anyone who tackles Superman will want to keep him in his iconic location of Metropolis.

In terms of setting, I think it might be interesting to have both such settings represented. If there can be only one, then I would want to play in Metropolis.

I really would want a Superman game to put players behind the wheel of Superman's godlike powers.

I want to be able to fight bosses like this:
[YT]VoJ2Bd41zsw[/YT]
Let me speed blitz Darkseid, fly Doomsday into the upper atmosphere and smash him into the ground like a meteor, or fly into General Zod at relativistic (or just supersonic) speeds with my fist.