Superman, why don't you stop sitting on the fence !

[hippie_hunter]

Superman: "Humankind has to be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."

Flash: "Why should they need us at all?"

Superman: "To catch them if they fall."

Wasn't that from Morrison's first arc of JLA?

 

[The Leaguer]

No doubt.

 

[Aristotle]

Besides, it's really not like you have definitive proof that cavemen were less happy than us.

In fact, most of the evidence suggests the opposite.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Superman is an icon and a beacon to all that is good but he is like Ned Flanders from the simpsons, he is so "moral" sometimes it makes me want to give him a slap. Batman bringing him too his knees in TDKR was a beutiful moment.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Batman beating Superman in any comic is not only rediculous but also dumb.

Batman represents human perfection and determination. But he's still just a man and a man, no matter how determined and perfect can still be broken.

That's why I find the concept of a regular man defeating a Kryptonian powered by yellow sun radiation that has the abilities of invulnerability, heat vision, flight, breath that can produce high winds and arctic chill, strength that can move a planet, and can achieve supersonic speed, to be completely rediculous, even with freaking Kryptonite or a nuclear weapon or whatever.

Not only that, he's also much more morally complex than you think. He apparently supports the concept of the Phantom Zone. He acted as judge, jury, and executioner in John Byrne's run (which unfortunately got retconed), he tries his best to not influence human affairs even if he knows it's not for the greater good for humanity (such as his refusal to not tell people to not to elect Lex Luthor as President), he sees the need for darker heroes such as Batman.

 

[Stallion9979]

even though Superman has all the powers and is an alien I think the thing that makes him so interesting is the fact that he uses those powers to help those that can't help themselves...

He was guided by genuinely good people and its those morals that drive him...yeah he can be a little too much of a goody 2 shoes at times but at the end of the day this is a guy that could rule the planet with ease and yet he never even gives it a second thought...

to him its just about doing the right thing and leading by example...to me personally thats the core of what I like about Superman...he does'nt do the right thing simply cuz he can but because he believes in it and no matter how much darkness he sees everyday he doesnt take the easy way out just cuz he's Superman...he does it cuz its whats right...

 

[hippie_hunter]

even though Superman has all the powers and is an alien I think the thing that makes him so interesting is the fact that he uses those powers to help those that can't help themselves...

He was guided by genuinely good people and its those morals that drive him...yeah he can be a little too much of a goody 2 shoes at times but at the end of the day this is a guy that could rule the planet with ease and yet he never even gives it a second thought...

to him its just about doing the right thing and leading by example...to me personally thats the core of what I like about Superman...he does'nt do the right thing simply cuz he can but because he believes in it and no matter how much darkness he sees everyday he doesnt take the easy way out just cuz he's Superman...he does it cuz its whats right...

Personally I find two things to be the most intriguing about Superman:

1. He is the icon of the superhero. In the DC universe he is THE hero that people look up to. He is the hero that other heroes such as Nightwing, Wally West, Kyle Rayner and others look up to. Not only that he has all this power and influence yet he doesn't use it for personal gain one bit.

2. As Batman stated in Superman/Batman #3, "It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then...he shoots fires from the skies..."

He's just as human as you and me in terms of appearance and personality but at the same time he's not because of his alien biology. I find such a contradiction especially fascinating.

 

[Aristotle]

Superman is an icon and a beacon to all that is good but he is like Ned Flanders from the simpsons, he is so "moral" sometimes it makes me want to give him a slap. Batman bringing him too his knees in TDKR was a beutiful moment.

People like you are, and I mean this literally, the problem with the world. People who despise those who believe above all else in ethics and morality. People who see ethics and morals as negotiable, and worse, outdated. It will be you and your amoral/anti-moral ilk that end the world in fire.

Batman beating Superman in any comic is not only rediculous but also dumb.

It depends on how the fight happens. If Batman gets the drop on Superman, kryptonite and tech that can mask him in every way to Superman's senses (which he does have) will always give him the edge he needs. If Superman gets the drop on Batman, Superman will always take it easily. If Batman has five or ten minutes prep time, it's debatable, but I give the edge to Bats because of the kryptonite and tech.

Not only that, he's also much more morally complex than you think. He apparently supports the concept of the Phantom Zone. He acted as judge, jury, and executioner in John Byrne's run (which unfortunately got retconed), he tries his best to not influence human affairs even if he knows it's not for the greater good for humanity (such as his refusal to not tell people to not to elect Lex Luthor as President), he sees the need for darker heroes such as Batman.

Don't bother with Damiean. He doesn't like morality. He doesn't even like moral complexity. He is amoral. Which is silly, since Batman, the only DCU hero he's a fan of, is maybe the most extremely, rigidly, unforgivingly moral of all the superheroes, even more so than Superman.

Also, while Byrne's origin was retconned, I believe Superman's executions still stand in continuity. He still cites them as his reason for never killing again.

 

[Mladen]

People like you are, and I mean this literally, the problem with the world. People who despise those who believe above all else in ethics and morality. People who see ethics and morals as negotiable, and worse, outdated. It will be you and your amoral/anti-moral ilk that end the world in fire.

ethics and morals are always negotiable. a lot of people will tell you murder is wrong.
then comes the 'except':
to save the life of a friend, when attacking a foreign country, when executing a criminal, when aborting an unborn child, when killing (some) animals.

culturally and personally, you'll always get wildly swinging standards on a variety of topics, including sexuality, animal treatment, human interaction, what to eat, what not to eat, what is acceptable behaviour, how to live one's life.

its the moral and ethical absolutists who clash with the conflicting ethics of another group which will 'end the world in fire'.

the other people who realise that their own morals are not universal constants are the peace brokers of the world. they realise that their beliefs are conditioned during their upbringing rather than hardwired in their brain, and are willing to find compromise when they clash with the morals and ethics of others, no matter how abhorrent the other may seem. They recognise that their own personal morality changes over time (its a normal part of growing up).

Conflicting morals between individuals may not be compatible, so we can choose not to live with the other people. We can lock them in prisons so they're away from us, exile them, or just not visit their country if its a cultural thing...

Except for people like you, who'd rather marginalise anybody whose morals don't fit the absolute standard (which, conveniently, matches yours... what a coincidence).

 

[Varient]

interesting read so far.

 

[Aristotle]

its the moral and ethical absolutists who clash with the conflicting ethics of another group which will 'end the world in fire'.

When did he say he had to believe what I believed? You'll find that I said that nowhere. But I find his disdain for ethics and morality unacceptable and disgusting, and it is such sociopaths as him, who have no regard for the human community, for those around them, or for even the vaguest sense of right and wrong, that are ruining and will continue to ruin the world.

the other people who realise that their own morals are not universal constants are the peace brokers of the world. they realise that their beliefs are conditioned during their upbringing rather than hardwired in their brain, and are willing to find compromise when they clash with the morals and ethics of others, no matter how abhorrent the other may seem. They recognise that their own personal morality changes over time (its a normal part of growing up).

Those are all sentiments I've been in a firm believer in for all of my adult life.

Except for people like you, who'd rather marginalise anybody whose morals don't fit the absolute standard (which, conveniently, matches yours... what a coincidence).

Again, you'll notice that at no point in time did I even mention what my moral standards are. Not even in the vaguest sense. For all you know, I could loathe Superman's morality--but I will always trust a man who has a standard and a code that he lives by a million times more than a man who believes in nothing but himself.

 

[Xofenroht]

Again, you'll notice that at no point in time did I even mention what my moral standards are. Not even in the vaguest sense. For all you know, I could loathe Superman's morality--but I will always trust a man who has a standard and a code that he lives by a million times more than a man who believes in nothing but himself.

Well...

People like you are, and I mean this literally, the problem with the world. People who despise those who believe above all else in ethics and morality. People who see ethics and morals as negotiable, and worse, outdated. It will be you and your amoral/anti-moral ilk that end the world in fire.

The bolded sentence implies that people who recognize the relativity of ethics and morals to the circumstance are the "problem" with the world, which I high disagree with.

Such views are the foundations of sexism, racism, etc. I say this, because those are all generated by a lack of understanding one group/culture has for another...ignorance. You might not see the ethics and morals of the individual you are judging in action, but that doesn't mean that they aren't there.

I prefer Batman over Superman because he is a reflection of what he fights against and yet, there is still a line drawn between himself and his rogues. It might be a very thin line, but in the end you realize that it's the struggle of man. Superman is completely alien to how people really operate, he'll never have the same perception of the world as the people he protects, simply because of his super abilities and alien origin. Batman though, he's man at its best. That's why he'll always be better than Superman, in my eyes, he represents the hope that man can have in himself.

 

[Aristotle]

The bolded sentence implies that people who recognize the relativity of ethics and morals to the circumstance are the "problem" with the world, which I high disagree with.

No, you inferred that. I did not imply it at all. Of course morals are relative. Moral absolutism is an outmoded philosophy that simply cannot be justified. There is, to my mind, just one absolute: a moral code is necessary. Amorality is disgusting, and it is the foundation of the world's problems: poverty exists because the rich, and to a degree the middle class, are not moral. War exists because the powerful are not moral. Bigotry exists because the influential are not moral.

Such views are the foundations of sexism, racism, etc. I say this, because those are all generated by a lack of understanding one group/culture has for another...ignorance. You might not see the ethics and morals of the individual you are judging in action, but that doesn't mean that they aren't there.

And yet, no amount of cultural relativism or understanding will ever make the Taliban's institutionalized misogyny palatable or acceptable to me.

Superman is completely alien to how people really operate, he'll never have the same perception of the world as the people he protects, simply because of his super abilities and alien origin. Batman though, he's man at its best. That's why he'll always be better than Superman, in my eyes, he represents the hope that man can have in himself.

There was a time when Superman represented that even better, because he grew up powerless. Luckily, that got retconned, making him a less dimensional character. Thank God for simplification and dumbing-down.

 

[fifthfiend]

poverty exists because the rich, and to a degree the middle class, are not moral.

I don't know if it's so much that as we just develop moral codes that allow for ****ting on the people beneath us (typically validated via whatever degree of victim-blaming, infantilization, and artfully constructed ignorance).

Elites wouldn't stay elites for very long if they didn't know how to take care of their own.

 

[Aristotle]

I don't know if the elites take care of their own. They can be pretty cutthroat to one another. I feel the wealthy are wealthy because they have, over the course of generations, developed into complete sociopaths. Newly wealthy people are newly sociopathic.

 

[Hush]

I think when supeman talked to Kyle in the 1st ION story he said it best. I quote: "Kyle, we have to strike a blanace between protecting people--maintaining a sense of order, and becoming too great force in their lives." " Our jobs, Our purpose, is to protect the people in the grand scheme of things. We keep the world spinning on its axis. Proverbally AND literally. Hwnethe unimaginable occurs we step in and throttle the life out of it. We allow humanity to keep living on--but we dont do the living for them. People have to make their own way, kyle. They have to do for themsleves. we need police to enforce law, firefighters to douse flames, doctors to heal the sick. Humanity helping humanity and when you take all that out of there hand's they are't living. they are being kept. And when that happens.....it changes. Just think about it kyle you ahve to find your place in this world and you ahve to leave room for the people who live on it."


There you go its kind along but it works. I think it gets the point across.

 

[Varient]

I think when supeman talked to Kyle in the 1st ION story he said it best. I quote: "Kyle, we have to strike a blanace between protecting people--maintaining a sense of order, and becoming too great force in their lives." " Our jobs, Our purpose, is to protect the people in the grand scheme of things. We keep the world spinning on its axis. Proverbally AND literally. Hwnethe unimaginable occurs we step in and throttle the life out of it. We allow humanity to keep living on--but we dont do the living for them. People have to make their own way, kyle. They have to do for themsleves. we need police to enforce law, firefighters to douse flames, doctors to heal the sick. Humanity helping humanity and when you take all that out of there hand's they are't living. they are being kept. And when that happens.....it changes. Just think about it kyle you ahve to find your place in this world and you ahve to leave room for the people who live on it."


There you go its kind along but it works. I think it gets the point across.

He was kinda wordy when he said it,.. but it puts a cap on his stance.
Never an issue with me. Superman solving all the problems of the world goes against his character as depicted as a corn-fed farmers son from Kansas.
Most who are raised to work hard to earn what they have tend to believe that is best for all. They are generous with giving AID not HANDOUTS.

I fully expect that from Superman.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, we're like that to a point, but as I've said before, the people who are tasked with writing Kansans in comics have NEVER understood us. We're not just a bunch of dumb ass-backwards ardent creationist hicks who expect everyone to pull themselves up their bootstraps. After all, a lot of us still vote on farm subsidies and nothing else. That ain't nothin but a handout.

 

[fifthfiend]

"You better not be talkin' with your mouth full," etc.

 

[Xofenroht]

We're not just a bunch of dumb ass-backwards ardent creationist hicks who expect everyone to pull themselves up their bootstraps

Coulda' fooled me

 

[Stallion9979]

lol owned....

 

[hippie_hunter]

Don't bother with Damiean. He doesn't like morality. He doesn't even like moral complexity. He is amoral. Which is silly, since Batman, the only DCU hero he's a fan of, is maybe the most extremely, rigidly, unforgivingly moral of all the superheroes, even more so than Superman.

That's what makes it funny.

He absolutely makes sure that he doesn't break his morals, particularly killing anyone. And pounces on anyone who does kill that's not part of his inner circle (Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan). He pounces on the Huntress for being too brutal.

So before anyone complains about Superman being too moral like Ned Flanders, Batman is more like him by refusing to break them EVER, and shoving them down other peoples' throats

Also, while Byrne's origin was retconned, I believe Superman's executions still stand in continuity. He still cites them as his reason for never killing again.

What issue post-IC did he do that? I thought Superman #666 stated that he's never killed anyone.

 

[Aristotle]

What issue post-IC did he do that? I thought Superman #666 stated that he's never killed anyone.

I stand corrected. I've been unable to get through many issues of Superman after the arc with that weird alien auctioneer guy. I'm vaguely aware of the Third Kryptonian business, and the Zod/Chris Kent business, was vastly disappointed with the beginning of Camelot Falls so didn't read even a full issue, and couldn't get through more than a couple pages of the much-vaunted Superman #666. So I hadn't seen that.

Damn, that's stupid. He was still talking about the executions in the run-up to Infinite Crisis.

 

[yahman]

It's a bit funny, because I hear this same argument all the time from people who think that God's an evil **** because he doesn't come down from on high and fix problems like Mr. Clean on scum. People do a good enough job screwing up their own lives for Superman/God to make things that much worse by action or inaction.

The only similarity about your comparisson, is that your are dealing with fictional characters

Mindyou because that's cause I find most Atheists as close mind, jerky and annoying as most modern, dogmatic religious figures. Yeah, that's 99% of the human race, but thems the chops eh?

I think you'll find that anyone who has done any philosphical ressearch of any kind isn't that dogmatic, infact they aren't sure about anything short of the ability to doubt, and that 1 + 1 = 2. Scientific Atheists on the other hand are another kettle of fish. Wank stains such as R.Dawkins are as Dogmatic as they come.

 

[fifthfiend]

Oh boy, this thread just took a turn for the classy.

No by all means keep it up with the ****ting on athiests and/or religious people, that's always an awesome use for internets.

"Wank stain" you say? Now that's what I call informed, enlightening discourse!