Superman Returns Superman's behaviour...

X-Maniac

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How does Superman's portrayal and behaviour in Superman Returns compare with how he is shown in
1) the Donner movies
2) the comics
3) other sources such as the animated series?

Does the SR version exist in his own completely diffferent 'universe', and is that acceptable to people on here; or is it close to what people have seen before?

Give examples of behaviour if you can... I want to know how people think the SR version compares with previous versions. And if/how it should change in the next Superman movie...
 
X-Maniac said:
How does Superman's portrayal and behaviour in Superman Returns compare with how he is shown in
1) the Donner movies
2) the comics
3) other sources such as the animated series?

Does the SR version exist in his own completely diffferent 'universe', and is that acceptable to people on here; or is it close to what people have seen before?

Give examples of behaviour if you can... I want to know how people think the SR version compares with previous versions. And if/how it should change in the next Superman movie...

One of the things in the Donner movies I've never liked is the depowering and having sex with Lois. Singer grabbed ahold of this idea and extrapolated what would happen if Lois got pregnant from that union. He's connecting himself to the Donenrverse in this way, but the rest of his behavior in SR doesn't really seem connected to the Donner films. In S2 there is also the apparent killing of the depowered Phantom Zone villains at the end. Don't like that either about the Donner movies. Superman doesn't kill anyone in SR, but his morality and ethics seem to be much different from the comics.

In the comics you have a wholesome, boyscout type, who always make the right decision. In the comics he did kill Phantom Zone villains from another universe, but he agonized over it b/c he believes killing is wrong. That is the big difference in SR. Of all the mistakes he makes, he doesn't seem to actually learn anything from them of even acknowledge that he's made mistakes. He just tries to make excuses. The movie doesn't spend any quality time showing or discussing how he has changed. It introduces a lot of conflict but never actually shows the process of the resolution or lessons learned from the experience. At the end of S2, Superman promises the President that he'll never let him down/ leave again. SR opens with just that, a 5 year absence. In this sense, the SR Superman doesn't seem like he could possibly be the same character.

THe comic version to me is even further from the SR version. In the comics he understands his responsibilities, he understands his position in the world and he has friends and is a happy positive person. Oh, and he also is happily married. Valuing marriage, telling Lois his secret, trusting her to keep it and believing enough in her that she can live with it are very different from both Donner's version and what is implied in SR. In contrast, the SR Superman is beset with problems of his own making, he doesn't seem to understand how his departure will/ has affected his acquaintances and the world at large. I said acquaintances, b/c this version also seems to bemoan the fact that Superman doesn't have any friends. The only one like him is his illegitimate son, and since he has been born, only now does SUperman feel like he has a true place on Earth. In the comics SUperman has many friends as both SUperman and Clark Kent In the Donner films, we see suggestions that he and Jimmy will have a friendship. He and Lois throughout all four original films do develop a friendship even as Clark. In SIII we see Lana and learn that she is an old friend of Clark's. Additionally, he treats them well. He treats them like you would treat a true friend. WHile not spending an inordinate amount of time on the subject it is suggested that he is not the lonely, pity me character we see in SR whose only connection to Earth seems to be Lois and I guess his mom. And we know from SR he hasn't treated Lois well, either before or after he left.

The comics over the years have spent a lot of time fleshing out SUperman's character and friendships. SR takes the approach that he is lonely and doesn't understand his place in the universe and his subsequent actions echo this. The Superman in the comics is the kind of person I would be proud to call friend. The Superman in SR seems like one of those people that just suck the life out of you b/c they can't understand or make any head way in dealing with their own self inflicted problems.
 
mego joe said:
One of the things in the Donner movies I've never liked is the depowering and having sex with Lois. Singer grabbed ahold of this idea and extrapolated what would happen if Lois got pregnant from that union. He's connecting himself to the Donenrverse in this way, but the rest of his behavior in SR doesn't really seem connected to the Donner films. In S2 there is also the apparent killing of the depowered Phantom Zone villains at the end. Don't like that either about the Donner movies. Superman doesn't kill anyone in SR, but his morality and ethics seem to be much different from the comics.

In the comics you have a wholesome, boyscout type, who always make the right decision. In the comics he did kill Phantom Zone villains from another universe, but he agonized over it b/c he believes killing is wrong. That is the big difference in SR. Of all the mistakes he makes, he doesn't seem to actually learn anything from them of even acknowledge that he's made mistakes. He just tries to make excuses. The movie doesn't spend any quality time showing or discussing how he has changed. It introduces a lot of conflict but never actually shows the process of the resolution or lessons learned from the experience. At the end of S2, Superman promises the President that he'll never let him down/ leave again. SR opens with just that, a 5 year absence. In this sense, the SR Superman doesn't seem like he could possibly be the same character.

THe comic version to me is even further from the SR version. In the comics he understands his responsibilities, he understands his position in the world and he has friends and is a happy positive person. Oh, and he also is happily married. Valuing marriage, telling Lois his secret, trusting her to keep it and believing enough in her that she can live with it are very different from both Donner's version and what is implied in SR. In contrast, the SR Superman is beset with problems of his own making, he doesn't seem to understand how his departure will/ has affected his acquaintances and the world at large. I said acquaintances, b/c this version also seems to bemoan the fact that Superman doesn't have any friends. The only one like him is his illegitimate son, and since he has been born, only now does SUperman feel like he has a true place on Earth. In the comics SUperman has many friends as both SUperman and Clark Kent In the Donner films, we see suggestions that he and Jimmy will have a friendship. He and Lois throughout all four original films do develop a friendship even as Clark. In SIII we see Lana and learn that she is an old friend of Clark's. Additionally, he treats them well. He treats them like you would treat a true friend. WHile not spending an inordinate amount of time on the subject it is suggested that he is not the lonely, pity me character we see in SR whose only connection to Earth seems to be Lois and I guess his mom. And we know from SR he hasn't treated Lois well, either before or after he left.

The comics over the years have spent a lot of time fleshing out SUperman's character and friendships. SR takes the approach that he is lonely and doesn't understand his place in the universe and his subsequent actions echo this. The Superman in the comics is the kind of person I would be proud to call friend. The Superman in SR seems like one of those people that just suck the life out of you b/c they can't understand or make any head way in dealing with their own self inflicted problems.
Teh depowering of Superman in S2 was a reat thing. They were trying to do a lot of things to explore facets of the character, and that was one of them. It gave the character a chance to rebel against his father, and his chosen mantle to just be a regular person. It also gave him a chance to experiece things for the first time as a mortal. And it showed his arrogance in chosing personal happiness over the fate of the world, even if he didn't know at that time that his decision would be effecting that. It was a character study on how a God, who desperately wanted to be a man and have a normal life, deals with it, and takes teh responsibility to chose his role as protector, weather he wants to do it or not. Like it or not, that is what the cards have for him in this life.
 
buggs0268 said:
Teh depowering of Superman in S2 was a reat thing. They were trying to do a lot of things to explore facets of the character, and that was one of them. It gave the character a chance to rebel against his father, and his chosen mantle to just be a regular person. It also gave him a chance to experiece things for the first time as a mortal. And it showed his arrogance in chosing personal happiness over the fate of the world, even if he didn't know at that time that his decision would be effecting that. It was a character study on how a God, who desperately wanted to be a man and have a normal life, deals with it, and takes teh responsibility to chose his role as protector, weather he wants to do it or not. Like it or not, that is what the cards have for him in this life.

I think making Superman out to be a god is a mistake. He's never been portrayed that way in the comics, his upbrining by the KEnt's has always grounded him and that whole bit about not being able to live with a mortal unless he was mortal (Superman's immortal?) is just made up for the movies. It's an artificial conflict that's sole purpose is to make a character that has been traditionally happy and positive have a reason not to be happy. It just seems like a weak story idea. How about just have Lois be in love with someone else? How about just have SUperman, based on his own sense of responsibility deny himself that personal pleasure of commitment to one woman. Maybe focus on Clark and Lois and have SUperman as the third wheel/ outsider on the relationship.

There are lots of ways to keep Superman and Lois apart, I've never cared for the artificial madate from his parents, or the insinuation that he is some sort of god. That completely goes against the point of his human upbrining.
 
mego joe said:
One of the things in the Donner movies I've never liked is the depowering and having sex with Lois. Singer grabbed ahold of this idea and extrapolated what would happen if Lois got pregnant from that union. He's connecting himself to the Donenrverse in this way, but the rest of his behavior in SR doesn't really seem connected to the Donner films. In S2 there is also the apparent killing of the depowered Phantom Zone villains at the end. Don't like that either about the Donner movies. Superman doesn't kill anyone in SR, but his morality and ethics seem to be much different from the comics.

In the comics you have a wholesome, boyscout type, who always make the right decision. In the comics he did kill Phantom Zone villains from another universe, but he agonized over it b/c he believes killing is wrong. That is the big difference in SR. Of all the mistakes he makes, he doesn't seem to actually learn anything from them of even acknowledge that he's made mistakes. He just tries to make excuses. The movie doesn't spend any quality time showing or discussing how he has changed. It introduces a lot of conflict but never actually shows the process of the resolution or lessons learned from the experience. At the end of S2, Superman promises the President that he'll never let him down/ leave again. SR opens with just that, a 5 year absence. In this sense, the SR Superman doesn't seem like he could possibly be the same character.

THe comic version to me is even further from the SR version. In the comics he understands his responsibilities, he understands his position in the world and he has friends and is a happy positive person. Oh, and he also is happily married. Valuing marriage, telling Lois his secret, trusting her to keep it and believing enough in her that she can live with it are very different from both Donner's version and what is implied in SR. In contrast, the SR Superman is beset with problems of his own making, he doesn't seem to understand how his departure will/ has affected his acquaintances and the world at large. I said acquaintances, b/c this version also seems to bemoan the fact that Superman doesn't have any friends. The only one like him is his illegitimate son, and since he has been born, only now does SUperman feel like he has a true place on Earth. In the comics SUperman has many friends as both SUperman and Clark Kent In the Donner films, we see suggestions that he and Jimmy will have a friendship. He and Lois throughout all four original films do develop a friendship even as Clark. In SIII we see Lana and learn that she is an old friend of Clark's. Additionally, he treats them well. He treats them like you would treat a true friend. WHile not spending an inordinate amount of time on the subject it is suggested that he is not the lonely, pity me character we see in SR whose only connection to Earth seems to be Lois and I guess his mom. And we know from SR he hasn't treated Lois well, either before or after he left.

The comics over the years have spent a lot of time fleshing out SUperman's character and friendships. SR takes the approach that he is lonely and doesn't understand his place in the universe and his subsequent actions echo this. The Superman in the comics is the kind of person I would be proud to call friend. The Superman in SR seems like one of those people that just suck the life out of you b/c they can't understand or make any head way in dealing with their own self inflicted problems.
Very good post mego joe. You own.
 
yes, good post mega joe.

We must also remember how Superman's love for Lois is portrayed in the 2 Donner movies, and in SR.

In S1, Superman was distraught, hearbroken, and angry when Lois died. So much so that he defied Jor-el's command and turned back time. True, it was a selfish act on Superman's part, but he did it to save the woman he loves.

Likewise, in S2, Superman gave up all of his powers so he could be with Lois. Again, a selfish act, but he did it for the woman he loves.

Now, compare that to SR, where Superman has casual sex with Lois, then leaves her for 5+ years, without a word, to search for his homeland. Again, a selfish act, but this time, only for Superman's benefit. Unlike S1 and 2, he didn't do this for Lois, he did it for HIMSELF...........

Are these the same Superman????
 
super-bats said:
yes, good post mega joe.

We must also remember how Superman's love for Lois is portrayed in the 2 Donner movies, and in SR.

In S1, Superman was distraught, hearbroken, and angry when Lois died. So much so that he defied Jor-el's command and turned back time. True, it was a selfish act on Superman's part, but he did it to save the woman he loves.

Likewise, in S2, Superman gave up all of his powers so he could be with Lois. Again, a selfish act, but he did it for the woman he loves.

Now, compare that to SR, where Superman has casual sex with Lois, then leaves her for 5+ years, without a word, to search for his homeland. Again, a selfish act, but this time, only for Superman's benefit. Unlike S1 and 2, he didn't do this for Lois, he did it for HIMSELF...........

Are these the same Superman????

You have done an excellent job in drawing the subtle distinctions between the Donner films and SR. Perhaps some of those who liked SR don't see the two sides of the line you've drawn. Be prepared for those who say that Superman left to help potential survivors of Krypton's explosion. I mean really though, how many years has it been since Krypton exploded? Would there even be anything left in the vicinity of the original location of Krypton?

I would reiterate how selfish and cowardly his leaving was by not explaining to Lois before hand.
 
well....if the NASA story DID say there were survivors.....then that would make it somewhat of a more noble journey......

Surprisingly, Singer LEFT OUT the one mitigating factor behind Superman's absence. That being Luthor's involvement in cooking up the whole story!!

When Lex is stabbing Supes with Kryptonite, that would've been the perfect opportunity to tell Supes that he concocted the whole Krypton story to GET RID of Supes.......The movie novel had that in it, and I was quite surprised that Singer left that out.

That would've been a cool twist.....and would have made Superman "less culpable."
 
also....contrast SR's Superman with Smallville's Clark.

In Smallville, when Clark and Lana finally slept together.....yes, they did it out of wedlock. But, even Clark's parents chided him for that. And, it implied that Clark DID use protection....

Anyways.......a few episodes later, after Clark got his powers back, he decided he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Lana. So, he took her to the FOS, told her the truth about himself, and then proposed to her.

Of course, Lana later "died" in a car accident, Clark turned back time, chose not to tell her his secret or propose to her, saved Lana, but his Dad died.....

But aside from that, the point is that Smallville's Clark, like the Reeve Superman in the Donner Movies, generally chose to STICK WITH the women they love. They generally act selfishly to try to PROTECT or SAVE the women they love.

If SR's Superman really loved Lois, he would have chosen to stay with her.....or else tell her the truth......
 
and....another point of difference in behavior......perhaps even more disturbing......

In SR, it appears that Lois DOES NOT know that Superman is Clark......

That means that Clark slept with Lois as Superman. IOW, he used his Superman persona to sleep with the woman he desires, because she is attracted to Superman not Clark. The problem is, since Superman and Clark are the same person, Lois was also, by default, sleeping with Clark, a man she IS NOT ATTRACTED TO!! That's kind of creepy, because she is sleeping with someone she is not attracted to, and she doesn't even know it.

That's because SR's Superman did not tell her who he was.

Contrast this with Superman 2. Clark / Superman didn't sleep with Lois until AFTER she found out his secret, and AFTER he revealed everything to her. He also gave up his powers, so he would be a normal human.

Likewise, in Smallville, Clark is not Superman yet, and when he slept with Lana, he had lost his powers and was trying to live a normal life. Once he did get his powers back, he finally told her the truth.

The point being....that, neither the Donner Superman or Smallville's Clark used their Superman persona ( false pretense ) to woo their woman and get them into bed.

Only SR's Superman did that, and for him, casual sex without consequence seems to suffice....
 
mego joe said:
I would reiterate how selfish and cowardly his leaving was by not explaining to Lois before hand.
He could of left her a note or told Perry White. He could of told someone in the Press, or sent a videotape of himself to a news channel saying his goodbyes and where and why he's going. Anyone with half a brain could of thought to do that!
 

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