The Dark Knight TDK Casting Sides

[ultimatefan]

I'm confused as to how people are able to be "disappointed" with the dialogue. How? What does it lack?

From my experience on the boards, no dialogue is ever good enough. Everytime there´s a leak or something like that, some try to put down the dialogue, like they can´t be happy with anything that wouldn´t be putting tears in David Mamet´s eyes... And yet a lot of them can barely write a coherent paragraph and when you look at fan fictions on the web, you wonder where are all these unsung masters of dialogue and storytelling...

 

[ultimatefan]

I like how the Chief keeps saying "Son". Three, four times on one page, I believe.

These excerpts aren't terrible. But they're not that impressive, either. The context is somewhat obvious, so the dialogue doesn't get a pass for that. The only line that's given me any rise at all is "It's rude to stare", simply because I can imagine the moment. Everything else feels recycled from other movies or feels like a cop drama cliche. The Bank Managers dialogue in particular, is simply awful. So is the Judge's. And past that...I see a lot of elements that might as well be the writer going "Hey, let's steal this idea from this movie".




Originality. It's very predictable, very pedestrian dialogue. That manages to not sound like normal people talking. Several of these characters speak as if they know they're in a movie, with clever barbs and oneliners worked into their conversations.



I'd tend to agree. The dialogue here is a bit stiff, somewhat clunky, and overall, a tad unrealistic. And some of it is just lousy. Real people just don't talk like this. Cops don't always speak in cop cliches, and thugs always don't speak in thug cliches. And quite honestly, if that's the best portrayal we're going to get for the mob...

Not worried just yet, but not impressed.

Given your fan fictions, you´d be the last person I´d take advice from in terms of writing good dialogue. Anyway, people hardly talk like real people in most movies, and you know what, people in real life tend to be more obvious, repetitive and predictable than this. Brian Michael Bendis likes to write "the way people really talk", at first it´s cool, but gets boring after a while. They´re saying what is appropriate for the story, and at least half of what makes dialogue feel organic and human is in the actor´s delivery, which is why we have people like Bale, Caine, Oldman, etc. working on this. There´s a lot of cop and criminal dialogue in Batman 89 that doesn´t sound any different from that, and yet people like Nicholson and Palance make it work. People like David E Kelley and JJ Abrams are praised writers and I can point a lot of dialogue in their stuff that sounds like this. It´s when you see the final product on the screen that you can see if it works or not.

 

[jimmy]

Cops don't always speak in cop cliches. . .

Clearly, you've never met an officer on the LAPD.

 

[ultimatefan]

Clearly, you've never met an officer on the LAPD.

I bet every American cop trains the "do you feel lucky today, do ya punk?" speech in the mirror...

 

[bosef982]

Yeah, I'm sort of getting tired of the "dialogue" is lame from people who I haven't seen push out better dialogue. The dialogue sounds just fine, leagues better than Begins in fact.

So, I have no worries. And boring ideas from other movies...there is no such thing as an original idea, just original executions and honestly, the Guard, we haven't even seen these pieces in full context so it's a bit lame and arrogant to judge them so harshly so quickly.

To me, they look promising and engaging, but I am still of course awaiting the final product.

 

[The Only Woj]

I really didn't have a problem with the dialogue. sometimes what looks odd on paper is fine once spoken in the film.

 

[The Only Woj]

This gets a little complicated. Their is no fair use protection here for the posters b/c they aren't using it for educational purposes (formal education that is, not fanboy education), aren't parodying the work, and the work should be protected given the steps WB has made to keep it secretive.

The question is whether fair sale under 17 USC 109 applies since they "purchased" the works. This only applies IF: 1) the owner (WB) made a lawful copy of it AND 2) the owner wanted to display it to the public.

Part 2 is where posters could get potentially screwed b/c its safe to say that WB did not want this information released to the public.

Plus, under section c of 17 USC 109 a first sale defense is limited to "display directly or by the projection of no more than one image at a time to viewers present at the place where the copy is located."

So, just b/c they paid for value it doesn't transfer the right to distribution and display. These rights are still held by WB and that's why they may be liable for copyright infringement.

in other words, never post anything that might be "leaked" or in some way be owned or originate from any film studio. they have more lawyers than you do. even if you might have the right to post the material, it's still them vs. you; and they will crush you with their iron fists.

 

[DA Harvey Dent]

in other words, never post anything that might be "leaked" or in some way be owned or originate from any film studio. they have more lawyers than you do. even if you might have the right to post the material, it's still them vs. you; and they will crush you with their iron fists.

Pretty much.

 

[Crooklyn]

This gets a little complicated. Their is no fair use protection here for the posters b/c they aren't using it for educational purposes (formal education that is, not fanboy education), aren't parodying the work, and the work should be protected given the steps WB has made to keep it secretive.

The question is whether fair sale under 17 USC 109 applies since they "purchased" the works. This only applies IF: 1) the owner (WB) made a lawful copy of it AND 2) the owner wanted to display it to the public.

Part 2 is where posters could get potentially screwed b/c its safe to say that WB did not want this information released to the public.

Plus, under section c of 17 USC 109 a first sale defense is limited to "display directly or by the projection of no more than one image at a time to viewers present at the place where the copy is located."

So, just b/c they paid for value it doesn't transfer the right to distribution and display. These rights are still held by WB and that's why they may be liable for copyright infringement.

You suit your name well. t:

Yeah, I'm sort of getting tired of the "dialogue" is lame from people who I haven't seen push out better dialogue.

Lol, that's like saying you have to be a director to criticize movies, or a chef to criticize food.

We have to be careful about who we put down, as long as they've provided a cohesive argument, I don't see why it must be dismissed as "psh, you're a hater, you'll never be pleased". Because then, you're treading on "biased fanboy" territory.

 

[Seen]

I was getting tears during the prosecutor scene. If it happens at all like that, I'm going to just start randomly cheering in the theater.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

Like so many of you who have posted in this thread, I found the sides to be very impressive. There was just one thing that I found to be extremely odd after reading through the sides a couple of times.

If they were so concerned about the security of the sides and the storyline for the movie that they went out of their way in the sides to change the names of characters, such as Batman being changed to The Avenger and Dent to The Prosecutor (both of which are painfully obvious as to who they are), then why the hell did they leave Salvatore Maroni's name as such, not once but twice in the sides that were posted? He was referred to as Maroni in the prosecutor seen and had his lines listed as Maroni when he was with his mistress. Doesn't seem like something they would overlook.

 

[Octoberist]

isn't the Guard is the pasionate one who likes to write long long comments, and usually is always against the 'more' popular opnion, if there is one?

 

[kenellard]

"that's No Moon, It's A Space Station!"

 

[regwec]

I am not attacking anyone who didn't like the dialogue- I just don't understand the source of their objections. All I have heard are variations on "it just wasn't very good". Compared to what? How could it be different? What's wrong with the courtroom scene? The TV scene? The bank scene? What changes should be made?

I am, slightly, tempted to believe that this is the only complaint that some can manage, since the "content" of the film and its characters all seem to be fine.

 

[The Guard]

Given your fan fictions, you´d be the last person I´d take advice from in terms of writing good dialogue. Anyway, people hardly talk like real people in most movies, and you know what, people in real life tend to be more obvious, repetitive and predictable than this.

Ah, another not-so-veiled insult from Ultimatefan rather than an actual discussion point to refute a statement I've made. I assume that because you can't tell me why the dialogue isn't average or bad, that you apparently have to slam mine?

What's so bad about my dialogue? When did I ever claim it was anything above average? When did I ever claim to be a professional writer? And so on and so forth...

The fact that people tend to be less subtle and speak in cliches in real life doesn't make the use of that style of dialogue here any more interesting. It's still unoriginal. It's still unimpressive.

Brian Michael Bendis likes to write "the way people really talk", at first it´s cool, but gets boring after a while. They´re saying what is appropriate for the story, and at least half of what makes dialogue feel organic and human is in the actor´s delivery, which is why we have people like Bale, Caine, Oldman, etc. working on this.

I can't wait to see an actor make the bank manager's little speech work.

"Criminals use to believe in honor...etc"

???

There´s a lot of cop and criminal dialogue in Batman 89 that doesn´t sound any different from that, and yet people like Nicholson and Palance make it work.

So what? Are you afraid THE DARK KNIGHT cannot stand on its own, and therefore you have to resort to "Well, this particular movie's dialogue isn't much better". I agree, btw. I don't think the cop dialogue in BATMAN is very impressive, either. And so what? Does that make this dialogue any better?

People like David E Kelley and JJ Abrams are praised writers and I can point a lot of dialogue in their stuff that sounds like this. It´s when you see the final product on the screen that you can see if it works or not.

Who cares? Not all their dialogue is stellar, either. It's pretty clunky too, sometimes. Dialogue is dialogue. I'm not judging whether it "works" or not, I'm judging it as good or bad dialogue, in the context of what I consider good and bad dialogue (what sounds like real, slightly different people speaking in real situations). As it's written on the page. A performance and a final product is a seperate entities entirely. I've seen plenty of horrible scripts make good movies because of the acting and care that goes into a film.

Clearly, you've never met an officer on the LAPD.

I've met plenty of cops, studied police culture intensively, and I've read a lot of police literature. Notice that earlier I didn't say police never speak in cop cliches (some of them do, although many of these seem to be cop cliches left over from about 1970). But they don't always talk like that. And frankly, it doesn't matter if a lot of them do. Because when we've seen film after film after film of cops talking in the same damn police slang cliches, why the hell would we want to see yet another one with the exact same stuff? How about a little humanization? How about a little variety?

So, I have no worries. And boring ideas from other movies...there is no such thing as an original idea, just original executions and honestly, the Guard, we haven't even seen these pieces in full context so it's a bit lame and arrogant to judge them so harshly so quickly.

I'm not judging them that harshly. I'm just saying there's nothing special about most of it. The context of the scenes (in terms of literature) is fairly obvious, I would think. And for a few key sequences, awful dialogue is awful dialogue. The "context" won't change that.

To me, they look promising and engaging, but I am still of course awaiting the final product.

So am I. I never said that the dialogue was horrible. I said it was unimpressive. You're all sitting here peeing yourselves about them getting the OBVIOUS and the EASY right ("My God, they made a reference to Joker's SMILE! EEEEE!"). It's one thing to be excited about an upcoming film. It's another to go so overboard with it.

I'll never understand that.

 

[regwec]

Would it be cheesy if Grumpy & Chuckles wore clown masks or make-up or little clown hats or something? I dunno. It's easy to err on the side of caution and say 'no thanks' but there should be a way to incorporate a motif and make it work. Gangs have their colours, mobsters have their jewelry and tattoos, the Jokers crew should have *something* that's 'realistic' and screwed up and not-too-gimmicky.

???

Lots of gangs commit crimes wearing masks. There's nothing particularly otherworldy about The Joker's henchmen borrowing a motif from their boss.

 

[Anjow1060]

I need a lil assistance, as Miranda pulled the sides off to save herself from problems (and rightfully so).

Does anyone have the JPEGS of the Rossi pages? Idc about the diologue. Are there page numbers on them and what are the page numbers?

 

[ultimatefan]

Ah, another not-so-veiled insult from Ultimatefan rather than an actual discussion point to refute a statement I've made. I assume that because you can't tell me why the dialogue isn't average or bad, that you apparently have to slam mine?

What's so bad about my dialogue? When did I ever claim it was anything above average? When did I ever claim to be a professional writer? And so on and so forth...

The fact that people tend to be less subtle and speak in cliches in real life doesn't make the use of that style of dialogue here any more interesting. It's still unoriginal. It's still unimpressive.



I can't wait to see an actor make the bank manager's little speech work.

"Criminals use to believe in honor...etc"

???



So what? Are you afraid THE DARK KNIGHT cannot stand on its own, and therefore you have to resort to "Well, this particular movie's dialogue isn't much better". I agree, btw. I don't think the cop dialogue in BATMAN is very impressive, either. And so what? Does that make this dialogue any better?



Who cares? Not all their dialogue is stellar, either. It's pretty clunky too, sometimes. Dialogue is dialogue. I'm not judging whether it "works" or not, I'm judging it as good or bad dialogue, in the context of what I consider good and bad dialogue (what sounds like real, slightly different people speaking in real situations). As it's written on the page. A performance and a final product is a seperate entities entirely. I've seen plenty of horrible scripts make good movies because of the acting and care that goes into a film.



I've met plenty of cops, studied police culture intensively, and I've read a lot of police literature. Notice that earlier I didn't say police never speak in cop cliches (some of them do, although many of these seem to be cop cliches left over from about 1970). But they don't always talk like that. And frankly, it doesn't matter if a lot of them do. Because when we've seen film after film after film of cops talking in the same damn police slang cliches, why the hell would we want to see yet another one with the exact same stuff? How about a little humanization? How about a little variety?



I'm not judging them that harshly. I'm just saying there's nothing special about most of it. The context of the scenes (in terms of literature) is fairly obvious, I would think. And for a few key sequences, awful dialogue is awful dialogue. The "context" won't change that.



So am I. I never said that the dialogue was horrible. I said it was unimpressive. You're all sitting here peeing yourselves about them getting the OBVIOUS and the EASY right ("My God, they made a reference to Joker's SMILE! EEEEE!"). It's one thing to be excited about an upcoming film. It's another to go so overboard with it.

I'll never understand that.

The comment is directly on the topic: if you feel entitled to be so harsh on other people´s dialogue, it implies you should know the subject considerably well, which indicates your own dialogue would be expected to be better than average. And you DID sound harsh, given how much focus you put on what you consider the negative, even if you didn´t mean it.

KInow what´s funny? I AM a paid professional writer. I write the scripts and articles for Brazil´s most popular education comic book, which is paid by aour industry national confederation (I mean, it´s private, not public) and distributed freely in schools, with one million copies and estimated four million readers and an overall approval above 95% among our readers. We talk to kids about complicated issues like global warming, the treatment of people with special needs, etc. And exactly because I work with it and I know the bitsch it is, I try to stay humble and not be unnecessarily harsh with the writing of professional people working in the real world. I know how hard it is.

The dialogue is not necessarily brilliant, even though I do think it shines in some moments, but it´s not bad either. Most of it is straight to the point and fits the pulpesque noirish style of filmmaking the sequel is going for. It doesn´t have to be entirely realistic because it´s not The Departed, it´s in that middle ground between not being too over-the-top but still being summer entertainment to a certain level.

I was just using an example that a movie can still work with a dialogue that doesn´t feel entirely realistic. It´s the whole package that makes the scenes work, as I made very clear.

You´re entitled to call whatever you want good or bad dialogue. And I´m entitled to disagree or either not care at all what you think is that.

 

[The Only Woj]

I think we need to stop fighting about dialogue quality here and come to a compromise. say, for the bank manager's mini-speech. cut it completely, and instead have the Joker deficate on him. I think I speak for everyone when I say a dump on the chest is worth 1000 words. and it really sets the tone for the entire film. that Gotham is in deep ****. chest deep.

 

[chintai80]

I think we need to stop fighting about dialogue quality here and come to a compromise. say, for the bank manager's mini-speech. cut it completely, and instead have the Joker deficate on him. I think I speak for everyone when I say a dump on the chest is worth 1000 words. and it really sets the tone for the entire film. that Gotham is in deep ****. chest deep.

[SIZE=-1]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cleveland+Steamroller[/SIZE]

 

[Miranda Fox]

I need a lil assistance, as Miranda pulled the sides off to save herself from problems (and rightfully so).

Does anyone have the JPEGS of the Rossi pages? Idc about the diologue. Are there page numbers on them and what are the page numbers?

FYI, I didn't pull them. Imageshack did. I've still got the screencaps saved on my comp.

 

[Seen]

The film is nearly a year and half away from happening. Even if these script pages are legit and a sign of what to expect in the film, we are still a ways off as to determine the quality of the film especially in terms of dialogue.

These, at the very least, are script pages that could only be used as an indicator for what the film has instore. I think we all need to just relax on the overcritical analysis of these things.

 

[ultimatefan]

eidt double post.

 

[ultimatefan]

The film is nearly a year and half away from happening. Even if these script pages are legit and a sign of what to expect in the film, we are still a ways off as to determine the quality of the film especially in terms of dialogue.

These, at the very least, are script pages that could only be used as an indicator for what the film has instore. I think we all need to just relax on the overcritical analysis of these things.

Yeah, we went through the exact same thing with BB, people being harsh on things on the leaked script that were either changed or worked just fine as a piece of the final product.

 

[Miranda Fox]

The film is nearly a year and half away from happening. Even if these script pages are legit and a sign of what to expect in the film, we are still a ways off as to determine the quality of the film especially in terms of dialogue.

These, at the very least, are script pages that could only be used as an indicator for what the film has instore. I think we all need to just relax on the overcritical analysis of these things.

Gill indicated these were from the very first finished draft so yeah, a lot of this will be very different come 2008.