The Dark Knight Rises TDKR villain ideology

[Anchor_Content]

Hi everyone,

So I'm not sure whether a thread already exists to answer this question, but I felt it would be useful and interesting to map out the ideologies that Nolan's Batman films seem to present -- with a view to discovering the ideologies that will appear in TDKR.

Moving forward....

BB= fear and theatricality as responses to corruption and injustice... coupled with the need to walk a fine line between justice and vigilantism

TDK = exploitation of self-interest as an escalated response to fear and theatricality... exposing the reality of chaos and morality as a weak mask

TDKR = reemergence of fear and the acceptance of status quo as a response to chaos... resurrecting the need for powerful symbols to shake people from their apathy

With this said... I believe Nolan may have chosen Bane to signal a "return to the status quo," with Catwoman representing the fine line that Batman must walk between law enforcement and lawlessness. Nolan may well also revise Bane's origins by making him another recruit of the League of Shadows -- one who "went rogue" like Batman but decided he wanted to rule crime and mete his own justice rather than eradicate corruption and work with the authorities.

If this is the case, Catwoman's presence as a wild card could present yet another mirror, reflecting Batman's need to continue walking a fine line and maintain rigorous self-control, even while public expectations for his conduct and character are at their lowest ebb.

Well, thoughts? Suggestions? Transformers icons?

 

[20thCenturyBoy]

Well, I doubt this is the route they'll go in the movie. But, here's what I think would be interesting, and contrast well with the Jokers anarchistic philosophy in TDK, would be for Bane's ideology to have a deeply fascistic tint to it.

TDK dealt a lot with how far can Batman morally go for the People of Gothams Own Good? A man in a mask making decisions for others, for their own good. He spies on the citizens of Gotham for their own good, and keeps the truth about Dent away from them, for their own good. This isn't a judgement on the morality of his actions, but... I think there's an interesting opportunity in Bane to contrast that. Bane takes control of Gothams criminal underworld, to keep it orderly, keep people reasonably safe from it. Make the trains run on time. This would work especially well if Bane is brought in by someone in Gotham's government as a "nuclear option".

He's the strongest, he's the smartest. The city belongs to him, and what he thinks is best for its populance is what he'll enforce, whether they like it or not. Joker was pure chaos, Bane is pure order, Batman has to become something in-between.

I'm sure that bit of rambling made absoloutly no sense, but, just an idle thought.

 

[MiniBond]

TDKR= Break the bat !!!!!!

 

[Anchor_Content]

Well, I doubt this is the route they'll go in the movie. But, here's what I think would be interesting, and contrast well with the Jokers anarchistic philosophy in TDK, would be for Bane's ideology to have a deeply fascistic tint to it.

TDK dealt a lot with how far can Batman morally go for the People of Gothams Own Good? A man in a mask making decisions for others, for their own good. He spies on the citizens of Gotham for their own good, and keeps the truth about Dent away from them, for their own good. This isn't a judgement on the morality of his actions, but... I think there's an interesting opportunity in Bane to contrast that. Bane takes control of Gothams criminal underworld, to keep it orderly, keep people reasonably safe from it. Make the trains run on time. This would work especially well if Bane is brought in by someone in Gotham's government as a "nuclear option".

He's the strongest, he's the smartest. The city belongs to him, and what he thinks is best for its populance is what he'll enforce, whether they like it or not. Joker was pure chaos, Bane is pure order, Batman has to become something in-between.

I'm sure that bit of rambling made absoloutly no sense, but, just an idle thought.

No, I think that is EXACTLY where Nolan will take Bane. I felt like I was leading in that direction with my earlier comment; sorry if I didn't write it clearly enough.

Bane is and should be the "dark mirror" of Batman -- what he could be if he didn't follow his moral compass. Bane comes to control the mob and continues the gravy train that feeds corruption in Gotham -- with cops on the take, etc. I could see him collaborating with an anti-Batman D.A. like Janice Porter. Pure order... But what happens when Bane starts to mete his own sense of justice? Impose his own moral universe on Gotham?

Add in a League of Shadows origins, and I think you have the "perfect trilogy" that Willy Pfister talked about in his remarks to a reporter.

 

[namtaB]

IMHO Pfister was talking about the culmination of Wayne's journey into the seasoned Batman when he said perfect trilogy.

There's a great interview with Elvis Mitchell where Nolan says they took the Joker and "tested" Batman in TDK. The same concept was at play in BB and I think the same will continue in TDKR.

Its really hard to predict anything but a vague ideology/theme. Its why I roll my eyes whenever I read someone post "TDKR will be about Batman redeeming himself."

Duh! That's like saying BB is about fear or TDK is about Escalation. Those themes were just the tip of the iceberg. There's much more going on in those films.

So much is story dependent and that's something we have no knowledge about. My curiosity lies in Bane and how he will fit into the story. He's a bit of a wildcard unlike the Joker where we knew no matter what he would be a crazy psychopath.

Typed via my Ipad

 

[Avengers-Report]

The villain ideology for the third film should be wanting power and control over Gotham's underworld while proving he is better than Batman.

 

[Rocketman]

I definitely like the idea of power being the main goal. Joker didn't even want power - he just wanted to see everything crumble around him. He wasn't trying to "own" the city, he wanted it to burn. Same with Ra's Al Ghul. He wanted to cleanse it.

Batman's line at the end of TDK about hope and faith might be foreshadowing something. "Some people need to have their faith rewarded." - referring to Lucius Fox and the shot of him as he typed in his name. Maybe this has something to do with Bruce having faith in himself, and the police having faith in him as well. You go from fear in BB, to escalation in TDK, to power and faith.

And, if Bruce really does get his back broken (just speculating), maybe the faith in himself to recover, rise from his wheelchair, and take back the city. It wouldn't be faith from a religious standpoint, but more like spiritual. I definitely see this being a very spiritual film.

 

[namtaB]

The Joker wanting to see the city crumble before him is a form of power. Its not the power we're conditioned to believe in (ie. career success, wealth, material possessions, etc.) But make no mistake, the Joker's ideology was one of power.

 

[Rocketman]

The Joker wanting to see the city crumble before him is a form of power. Its not the power we're conditioned to believe in (ie. career success, wealth, material possessions, etc.) But make no mistake, the Joker's ideology was one of power.

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

The Joker is insane. He doesn't care about power. He doesn't want power over anything. He's "like a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. He just does things."

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"

He's nuts. He's like a bored child with a magnifying glass who reflects the sun and burns ants. He's doing it because he's bored and frying ants seems like fun. He's not doing it to have power over the ants. The ants just happen to be there for his entertainment.

An example of people who do want power: Carmine Falcone, Salvatore Maroni, etc.

 

[chamber-music]

I thought the Joker was about corruption. Turning Dent into Two-Face, trying to get Batman to break his not killing rule, ect.

 

[Rocketman]

He likes corruption when it shakes things up, or upsets the established order. He likes anarchy, but he is not an anarchist.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Well, the 'anarchist' ideology with the Joker wasn't exactly implicit (though some of the things he did don't exactly follow letter-by-letter with the actual political ideology - I mean, this guy believes the inherent depravity in human morals, anarchists like William Godwin embrace something that Batman believes - that we're all good on the inside, and corrupted by society).

The League of Shadows, with all their psuedo-Nietzschean lingo about "WILL IS EVRITHINGG!" seemed more like a traditional fascist, with a superior sense of the world etc.

Liberalism and the notion of democracy runs an underlying theme in TDK, especially with our belief in Harvey Dent.

Bane... I don't know. I still think regwec's proposed idea that he be analogised with militant fundamentalists is the best way to go. Even though that was a proposed more on terms of Bane's visual outlook, I think something interesting can be done in the story as well. I just don't want to see him pulling a socialist agenda, that sort of antagonism has gotten old since the Cold War faded away, especially so in mainstream cinema. And no, I don't think that Nolan's Batman is George W. Bush, or that his Harvey Dent is Barack Obama.

 

[Visceral]

I think that Bane although corrupted by substance abuse, will be working with the police.

As for the themes BB was will to conquer fear and achieve true justice, What is true justice?

TDK was how does one allow people freedoms and still protect them from evil, Can you avenge evil without becoming it?

I believe TDKR will have a much more redemptive quality to it. Nolan has been influenced by Dostoevesky, who said that suffering leads to atonement. Right now I believe the guilt of rachel and harvey's deaths and the lies told to the public are starting to weigh heavily on Bruce.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

The Joker is insane. He doesn't care about power. He doesn't want power over anything. He's "like a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. He just does things."

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"

He's nuts. He's like a bored child with a magnifying glass who reflects the sun and burns ants. He's doing it because he's bored and frying ants seems like fun. He's not doing it to have power over the ants. The ants just happen to be there for his entertainment.

An example of people who do want power: Carmine Falcone, Salvatore Maroni, etc.

That's just what he WANTS you to believe. Deep down, he's just like an emo teenager who thinks that the world's cruel and a big bad joke, that deep down morals are flawed and that humanity and civilisation are full of ****. I'm calling him a teenager because that's the sort of existential angst most people go through IN HIGH SCHOOL. Good god Mr. J, grow the hell up.

Deep down inside, he just wants to show that everyone's as twisted as he is. Fact that he's alone scares him. That's why he's practically in love with Batman (in a totally non-sexual way). The fact that we have villains in Nolan's movies who are indulgent in their emotions and anxieties isn't surprising either. In the last one we had Ra's Al Ghul who can't seem to harmonise the fact that he himself has become the 'vigilantes' he looks down on. Sure, it may no longer be "lost in the scramble of his own gratification" but it's still there. His vengeance is indulgent. Manifested Mal's indulgences on Cobb's guilt and loneliness is similar. As is Angier (Hugh Jackman's) competitiveness in The Prestige. I'm sure we can find more examples. Someone here on the board pointed out that Nolan's themes share a motif regarding individuals who wrongfully use their dead relatives as an excuse for their own actions. It's perhaps one of the best ways to describe the villains we've seen.

Also:

This is scarier than when he's with make up.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I think that Bane although corrupted by substance abuse, will be working with the police.

As for the themes BB was will to conquer fear and achieve true justice, What is true justice?

TDK was how does one allow people freedoms and still protect them from evil, Can you avenge evil without becoming it?

I believe TDKR will have a much more redemptive quality to it. Nolan has been influenced by Dostoevesky, who said that suffering leads to atonement. Right now I believe the guilt of rachel and harvey's deaths and the lies told to the public are starting to weigh heavily on Bruce.

I still suspect Bane will be the 'replacement' vigilante in Gotham. If what Batman does can be called vigilantism, the inner-logic of the stories seem to question that.

I've always said that BB = Batman vs. Criminality (hence many manifestations of evil)

TDK = Batman vs. the Criminal (represented by both the Joker, his polar opposite, and Two-Face, a look into how good people end up becoming criminal).

TDKR = Batman vs. being the Criminal (I used to call it 'Criminal-ism' but that's too fancy), with Batman suddenly faced with the fact that he's become the one thing he fought against. At the end of the day, he did push Harvey off that cliff, knowing Batman that'd haunt him for good deal. Unlike with Ra's, Harvey wasn't already falling.

 

[Rocketman]

That's just what he WANTS you to believe. Deep down, he's just like an emo teenager who thinks that the world's cruel and a big bad joke, that deep down morals are flawed and that humanity and civilisation are full of ****. I'm calling him a teenager because that's the sort of existential angst most people go through IN HIGH SCHOOL. Good god Mr. J, grow the hell up.

Deep down inside, he just wants to show that everyone's as twisted as he is. Fact that he's alone scares him. That's why he's practically in love with Batman (in a totally non-sexual way). The fact that we have villains in Nolan's movies who are indulgent in their emotions and anxieties isn't surprising either. In the last one we had Ra's Al Ghul who can't seem to harmonise the fact that he himself has become the 'vigilantes' he looks down on. Sure, it may no longer be "lost in the scramble of his own gratification" but it's still there. His vengeance is indulgent. Manifested Mal's indulgences on Cobb's guilt and loneliness is similar. As is Angier (Hugh Jackman's) competitiveness in The Prestige. I'm sure we can find more examples. Someone here on the board pointed out that Nolan's themes share a motif regarding individuals who wrongfully use their dead relatives as an excuse for their own actions. It's perhaps one of the best ways to describe the villains we've seen.

Good post. I mostly agree, but I think there's something going on in Joker's brain that is just completely inhuman and illogical. I view him as a sexless creature who isn't a man (or a woman) - he's just "there", like a space alien without a penis (not literally, since this is Nolan's "real world"). That's why I like to think that power means nothing to him. But I definitely agree with your post too.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Good post. I mostly agree, but I think there's something going on in Joker's brain that is just completely inhuman and illogical. I view him as a sexless creature who isn't a man (or a woman) - he's just "there", like a space alien without a penis (not literally, since this is Nolan's "real world"). That's why I like to think that power means nothing to him. But I definitely agree with your post too.

That's what they were going for with the Joker in TDK. He was an almost unstoppable force of nature. That's why he didn't have and didn't need an origin story at the same time, while also being the reason for nothing being known about him.

 

[Visceral]

I still suspect Bane will be the 'replacement' vigilante in Gotham. If what Batman does can be called vigilantism, the inner-logic of the stories seem to question that.

I've always said that BB = Batman vs. Criminality (hence many manifestations of evil)

TDK = Batman vs. the Criminal (represented by both the Joker, his polar opposite, and Two-Face, a look into how good people end up becoming criminal).

TDKR = Batman vs. being the Criminal (I used to call it 'Criminal-ism' but that's too fancy), with Batman suddenly faced with the fact that he's become the one thing he fought against. At the end of the day, he did push Harvey off that cliff, knowing Batman that'd haunt him for good deal. Unlike with Ra's, Harvey wasn't already falling.

This feels more like a list of the different obstacles that Batman has had to face in each film. I was trying more to encapsulate what his conflict with these obstacles means. I mean you said what bane is or might be(we can't be sure yet) but how does he view the world? His ideology, Catwoman's ideology what is that saying thematically and what does that make the film about.

batman is fighting a losing battle with his demons right about now, can one be saved from such demons? and if so how? do people do it together? do catwoman and bane have equally as oppressive demons they struggle with? do they believe they can be saved from them?

 

[Nave 'Torment']

@ Rocketman Absolutely - power is the last thing he's looking for. He's no Darth Vader. Maybe Ra's was (thought it's been suggested very mildly). Perhaps 'power' can be a theme we see more explicitly this time? After all, Bane's a guy with big guns. And Selina's got big...never mind.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

This feels more like a list of the different obstacles that Batman has had to face in each film. I was trying more to encapsulate what his conflict with these obstacles means. I mean you said what bane is or might be(we can't be sure yet) but how does he view the world? His ideology, Catwoman's ideology what is that saying thematically and what does that make the film about.

batman is fighting a losing battle with his demons right about now, can one be saved from such demons? and if so how? do people do it together? do catwoman and bane have equally as oppressive demons they struggle with? do they believe they can be saved from them?

Ah I see, well that was an old categorisation of mine, I just wanted to throw it in here. God, us fans, we've been speculating these films for a long time haven't we?

Personally, while it'd be neat and keen to see Batman redeeming himself and exorcising his demons with Catwoman and their eternal star-crossed love, somehow it feels too ideal. Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I don't want to hear people telling me that YOUR DEMONS CAN BE KILLED IF YOU LET OTHERS IN. I don't know, that's true for loneliness, but personal demons are private wars, and we need to heal them ourselves rather than rely on others. But hey, we can do this all day long and go no where fast.

Thematically, it's a safe bet to say that this will be a film about redemption.

 

[Visceral]

Ah I see, well that was an old categorisation of mine, I just wanted to throw it in here. God, us fans, we've been speculating these films for a long time haven't we?

Personally, while it'd be neat and keen to see Batman redeeming himself and exorcising his demons with Catwoman and their eternal star-crossed love, somehow it feels too ideal. Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I don't want to hear people telling me that YOUR DEMONS CAN BE KILLED IF YOU LET OTHERS IN. I don't know, that's true for loneliness, but personal demons are private wars, and we need to heal them ourselves rather than rely on others. But hey, we can do this all day long and go no where fast.

Thematically, it's a safe bet to say that this will be a film about redemption.

Uh I disagree with the thought about demons being only personal. I believe that we are naturally relational beings that yearn for catharsis, love and sex in order to survive. But I'll save the existential unity ******** for another talk.

I only say its about redemption because thats what dark victory centered on, that and the guilt from the following film we already mentioned. I had thought I read that Nolan and Bale both liked Dark Victory. However in that Catwoman isn't able to give him the love he needs to escape his personal hell, so he takes on a partner as a son figure, Robin. And seeing as how robin was already reported to not be in the film it might mean that my entire theory is off.

So who knows?

 

[namtaB]

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

The Joker is insane. He doesn't care about power. He doesn't want power over anything. He's "like a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. He just does things."

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"

He's nuts. He's like a bored child with a magnifying glass who reflects the sun and burns ants. He's doing it because he's bored and frying ants seems like fun. He's not doing it to have power over the ants. The ants just happen to be there for his entertainment.

An example of people who do want power: Carmine Falcone, Salvatore Maroni, etc.

Your definitions are rubbish.

The Joker is NOT insane. He has not lost his grip on reality. He knows exactly what he's doing. His high degree of planning is indicative of sanity.

He's amoral, better yet he's anti-moral. This manifests itself in extreme anti-social action combined with homicidal behavior. That in and of itself does not pass any tests for insanity.

To say he doesn't want power is short sighted. His whole purpose in the film is to corrupt people, to place them in situations where they will abandon their principles and operate in a state of anarchy. He does this with a high degree of planning and manipulation. The reason he does this is b/c he believes that all people are corruptible, that their morals and codes are a bad joke, that at the first sign of trouble they will be discarded.

In other words, the Joker sets out to prove his theory that all people are corruptible by using a high degree of planning to place people in situations where they will abandon all morals and values.

Not only does this demonstrate clear lucid thinking, something an insane person does not have, but also his capacity to exert power over other people namely Batman, Gordon, Dent, and just about everyone else in Gotham.

Don't tell me you actually believed his line that he's just a dog chasing cars did you?

 

[Nave 'Torment']

The Joker's not seeking power like other villains or characters, hell other individuals in real life, seek power. He is certainly imposing a certain power over others, but it's not the same as controlling it. Power implies control, and while we may argue that he plans to show people that they are corruptible (that is, control their established moralities...something I believe can be done, morality owes a lot to social constructs). But through the course of TDK he isn't focusing on getting power, he is focusing on exposing the powers-that-be. He himself is a schemer. With a plan. Just not like the rest. The only common ground he shares with political anarchists is the idea of a world without a government or system, commerce what you may, a place without political influence, without mob superiority, where what's "natural" (and by proxy, evil) runs rampant. Where he doesn't have to play the morality card and joke around. He's IMMORAL.

See, all that talk about 'being a man of my own word' weren't lies... they were punchlines. HEHAHAHAHAHHAHAA

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Uh I disagree with the thought about demons being only personal. I believe that we are naturally relational beings that yearn for catharsis, love and sex in order to survive. But I'll save the existential unity ******** for another talk.

I only say its about redemption because thats what dark victory centered on, that and the guilt from the following film we already mentioned. I had thought I read that Nolan and Bale both liked Dark Victory. However in that Catwoman isn't able to give him the love he needs to escape his personal hell, so he takes on a partner as a son figure, Robin. And seeing as how robin was already reported to not be in the film it might mean that my entire theory is off.

So who knows?

Agreed, lets save that one for later. We each have our own opinions, all in good faith my friend.

I see where you're going with the Dark Victory themes. I think I was discussing that in length with another board member in another thread a few days ago. DV serves as a perfect source material that comes out of TDK. If rumors about Batman's broken back and Bane hadn't surfaced (well, Bane's confirmed so what the heck) I'd say I would've preferred a direct DV adaptation, with Robin and all. But that's not what Nolan is going for. The same themes can work very well without Robin, and who knows, if you change it around and give Catwoman a bigger role as Batman's "savior", it'd mean that what Bruce initially hoped with Rachel for a normal life is taken to another height. These aren't normal people, Selina would say, their existence is so much more profound, so much more archetypal. It's sexy.

 

[Anchor_Content]

That's just what he WANTS you to believe. Deep down, he's just like an emo teenager who thinks that the world's cruel and a big bad joke, that deep down morals are flawed and that humanity and civilisation are full of ****. I'm calling him a teenager because that's the sort of existential angst most people go through IN HIGH SCHOOL. Good god Mr. J, grow the hell up.

Deep down inside, he just wants to show that everyone's as twisted as he is. Fact that he's alone scares him. That's why he's practically in love with Batman (in a totally non-sexual way). The fact that we have villains in Nolan's movies who are indulgent in their emotions and anxieties isn't surprising either. In the last one we had Ra's Al Ghul who can't seem to harmonise the fact that he himself has become the 'vigilantes' he looks down on. Sure, it may no longer be "lost in the scramble of his own gratification" but it's still there. His vengeance is indulgent. Manifested Mal's indulgences on Cobb's guilt and loneliness is similar. As is Angier (Hugh Jackman's) competitiveness in The Prestige. I'm sure we can find more examples. Someone here on the board pointed out that Nolan's themes share a motif regarding individuals who wrongfully use their dead relatives as an excuse for their own actions. It's perhaps one of the best ways to describe the villains we've seen.

Also:

This is scarier than when he's with make up.

Well-said.... So if Nolan's antagonists are creations of their own terrors and anxieties, how would Bane fit into this paradigm? Maybe Bane is simply Batman without his moral compass? And so what if Bane and Batman begin to parallel each other, particularly as Batman "loses his humanity" as a hunted vigilante without allies like Gordon, Dent, or Rachel? And what if Catwoman helps anchor Bruce in the moral universe?

Then again... the addition of Robin would capably anchor Batman to his humanity while Bane serves as Batman's dark parallel -- the possible Batman -- and Catwoman offers him a path to that grim reality?

In which case, Batman will need to "rise" above the nature of vigilantism and lawlessness at their worst.

Yeah? Anyone? Two-Face icons?