Action-Adventure Terminator: Dark Fate

Every Terminator trailer gives away the reveals. Starting with T2 giving away the twist that Arnold is a good Terminator with “Get down.”
 
Don't think Arnold being a good terminator in T2 was ever intended to be a secret twist and just part of the story
 
Well we'll see how R rated this is.
 
DarkKnight88 said:
Not really. If you watch the film after following the first, there’s nothing to give away he isn’t bad until that moment.
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Eh. In the bar scene he demands clothes but he doesn't kill anyone, whereas the Terminator in the first movie kills like three guys in ten seconds. Not that he necessarily draws a line at killing people---John has to stop him from shooting the one guy, but that's in defense of John, from the Terminator's perspective---but he's already fairly clearly not on a flat-out homicidal rampage like the first Terminator.

And it's an even more conspicuous difference compared to T-1000, who kills a cop right away and is obviously sinister and menacing right from the get-go. Between the immediate killing, his ominous theme music, and Robert Patrick's creepiness, it's never in doubt that T-1000 is villainous.
 
Schlosser85 said:
Eh. In the bar scene he demands clothes but he doesn't kill anyone, whereas the Terminator in the first movie kills like three guys in ten seconds. Not that he necessarily draws a line at killing people---John has to stop him from shooting the one guy, but that's in defense of John, from the Terminator's perspective---but he's already fairly clearly not on a flat-out homicidal rampage like the first Terminator.

And it's an even more conspicuous difference compared to T-1000, who kills a cop right away and is obviously sinister and menacing right from the get-go. Between the immediate killing, his ominous theme music, and Robert Patrick's creepiness, it's never in doubt that T-1000 is villainous.
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I think that’s in your mind knowing it, but try watching the film without the knowledge of Arnold being good, only with the first film in mind.

Robert Patrick doesn’t necessarily kill the cop, he punches him. Initially, he doesn’t act much different than Michael Biehn in the first film who also knocks out a cop. Biehn is played as sinister until he saves Sarah as well.

He’s even “polite” to John’s adoptive parents. I think Cameron was definitely playing it that you wouldn’t know who’s good and who’s bad until the “get down!” scene. There are clues to be sure, but it’s not blatant.
 
That’s fine and good, but that’s different for everybody. Of course at the time, Arnold was a superstar and the previews gave it away so even subconsciously people would know.

What I’m saying BASED solely on the film, Cameron structured it so you’re not completely sure until that “Get down” scene, especially if you go in blind having only seen the original film first.
 
DarkKnight88 said:
I think that’s in your mind knowing it, but try watching the film without the knowledge of Arnold being good, only with the first film in mind.

Robert Patrick doesn’t necessarily kill the cop, he punches him. Initially, he doesn’t act much different than Michael Biehn in the first film who also knocks out a cop. Biehn is played as sinister until he saves Sarah as well.

He’s even “polite” to John’s adoptive parents. I think Cameron was definitely playing it that you wouldn’t know who’s good and who’s bad until the “get down!” scene. There are clues to be sure, but it’s not blatant.
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Nah. The T-1000 is clearly menacing. He acts very cold and acts classic evil robot, with not one single hair out of place. Where as Arnie gets the hero's entrance, where he is a bit comedic and clearly less threatening. Where he would have just offed people in the first film, he doesn't do that in the T2 opening.

Also comparing the T-1000 to Reese. Reese is out of breath, moving, trying to survive. He's clearly a human. The T-1000 comes off more inhuman then Arnold.
 
I get what you’re saying and maybe Cameron did intend it to play the way, but 4 year old me who had never seen a trailer and had also never seen Arnold before could clearly tell who the good guy was.

Maybe it’s just because I had a simpler worldview at the time though.
 
DarthSkywalker said:
Nah. The T-1000 is clearly menacing. He acts very cold and acts classic evil robot, with not one single hair out of place. Where as Arnie gets the hero's entrance, where he is a bit comedic and clearly less threatening. Where he would have just offed people in the first film, he doesn't do that in the T2 opening.

Also comparing the T-1000 to Reese. Reese is out of breath, moving, trying to survive. He's clearly a human. The T-1000 comes off more inhuman then Arnold.
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I’m not comparing Reese as a Terminator but to your point about the T-1000 acting sinister with scary music. It’s played the same in the Reese scene. Reese could very well be a psychotic out to hurt Sarah until he does indeed save her. We don’t know for sure until then.

Bad to the bone with the sunglasses is the only hint for Arnold but again, we’re assuming. Before that he’s clearly threatening to all those bikers. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
 
DarkKnight88 said:
I’m not comparing Reese as a Terminator but to your point about the T-1000 acting sinister with scary music. It’s played the same in the Reese scene. Reese could very well be a psychotic out to hurt Sarah until he does indeed save her. We don’t know for sure until then.

Bad to the bone with the sunglasses is the only hint for Arnold but again, we’re assuming. Before that he’s clearly threatening to all those bikers. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
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Your argument was based on expectations based on the first film, but now you don't want to compare with the first film? Does that make sense?

Reese has a very classic ragtag soldier look. He has been through wars, and wears the scars to prove it. He's basically Rambo. When he arrives, he falls from the sky, is in pain, confused and seemingly overwhelmed. From the moment we see him, he is on the run, and clearly trying to avoid others. They go out of their way to show that to us. It is the exact opposite of the Terminator's entrance in that film, who arrives in a very cool, calm manner. When confronted by a issue, he just goes through it as quickly and efficiently as possible. The T-1000's entrance mirrors this, except with the added layer of somehow being even more artificial then Arnold's Terminator. He's too slick to not be the baddie.

Arnold doesn't threaten the bikers. Arnold in the first film would have killed everyone in that bar. He doesn't in T2. It is played with an entire different feel, with an overt comedic feel to all of it. Every time he commits violence during this scene, it is in response to violence being attacked upon him. When he is given what he wants, he stops and leaves. It is so clearly different from the first film, you can tell right away something is different.
 
What are you talking about? Of course the first film matters in the context of watching the second, as it was intended. I’m not denying that. But you’re getting caught up on exact details when it’s supposed to echo the first. Obviously Reese and the T-1000 are not the same, but the feel is. It’s an echo. And then he subverts your expectations. You don’t think he did? He didn’t mean to have any of that feel familiar but then changes it?

None of what you write says “good” either. So what if his violence isn’t on par with the first? It doesn’t mean he’s all of sudden “good”. Arnold performs more violence in that scene than does the T-1000 in his introduction by punching a cop. They’re both cold, calculating. Again, so what? It’s all playing on audience expectations from the first film. Arnold is visually the “bad biker” while the T-1000 is the “good cop”. On purpose. There are clues, but again, nothing you write says “Yes!” one way or the other.

If you honestly don’t think Cameron structured the opening to muddy what the motives of these two Terminators are, then there’s not much more we can argue about. For me, it’s fairly clear that you’re not supposed to be 100% sure until that moment. This isn’t T3.
 
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I just rewatched all of the arrival scenes and the T-1000’s plays so clearly villainous compared to the T-800’s. It’s like a horror film vs. a standard action/adventure complete with a tension easing bit of comedy at the end. The T-1000 scene doesn’t remind me of the Kyle Reese arrival at all outside of them both punching cops. Dude is so polished and can even perfectly operate a police cruiser lol.

Iunno man, I tried seeing it your way but it just doesn’t register for me.
 
DarkKnight88 said:
What are you talking about? Of course the first film matters in the context of watching the second, as it was intended. I’m not denying that. But you’re getting caught up on exact details when it’s supposed to echo the first. Obviously Reese and the T-1000 are not the same, but the feel is. It’s an echo. And then he subverts your expectations. You don’t think he did? He didn’t mean to have any of that feel familiar but then changes it?

None of what you write says “good” either. So what if his violence isn’t on par with the first? It doesn’t mean he’s all of sudden “good”. Arnold performs more violence in that scene than does the T-1000 in his introduction by punching a cop. They’re both cold, calculating. Again, so what? It’s all playing on audience expectations from the first film. Arnold is visually the “bad biker” while the T-1000 is the “good cop”. On purpose. There are clues, but again, nothing you write says “Yes!” one way or the other.

If you honestly don’t think Cameron structured the opening to muddy what the motives of these two Terminators are, then there’s not much more we can argue about. For me, it’s fairly clear that you’re not supposed to be 100% sure until that moment. This isn’t T3.
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I am getting caught up in the details of scenes you are suppose to be comparing to see how they work? What?

Who cares if his violence isn't on par with the first movie? That's the entire point. Especially when he does nothing that isn't a response to violence being acted on him. I mean, come on. Also the T-1000 doesn't punch a cop, he stabs him in the stomach.

Cameron structured the scenes as he intended. To mirror the first film, and play on expectations, while making it very clear who the hero and who the villain is. How the first meeting with John works, is the same as how the first scene with Sarah works in the very same movie. Both think Arnold is the villain, because that is what they know. The audience already knows better in both instances.
 
It’s hard for me to imagine anyone not immediately getting the not remotely subtle cues that T-1000 is a villain. He comes with his own ominous theme music, and everything about his appearance and body language is menacing and predatory.
 
Also Reese doesn’t kill anyone for their clothes, and he doesn’t kill the cop he jumps in the alleyway, even when he gets his gun. At no point in time does he try to kill anyone except the Terminator.
 
Schlosser85 said:
It’s hard for me to imagine anyone not immediately getting the not remotely subtle cues that T-1000 is a villain. He comes with his own ominous theme music, and everything about his appearance and body language is menacing and predatory.
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Yeah, I was 4 when T2 came out and immediately knew he was evil. Stabbing the cop, pushing the kids aside. Arnold came off cool to me immediately.
 
The new Red Band trailer was pretty good. One great bit of dialogue--

New Girl: So, you're Carl?
T-800: That's what everyone calls me, yes.
Sarah: I'm never gonna ****in' call you Carl.
 
sVIWpFc.jpg


 
With Irishman being released that same day in theatres it's gonna be a long Nov. 1.
 
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