Terminator: Genisys - Part 7

[ThePhantasm]

Funny thing about those words. When Kyle tells Sarah her message, he never says any of that in the original film.

Actually he does tell her that the future is not set.

 

[Serpico Jones]

Someone pointed out on Twitter: this is the only film I can ever remember that has the second unit DP listed in the main credits.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Actually he does tell her that the future is not set.

This is what he says:

"Thank you, Sarah, for your courage through the dark years. I can't help you with what you must soon face except to say that the future is not set. You must be stronger than you imagine you can be. You must survive, or I will never exist."

The no fate but what we make, is not in there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Thing with T2 I always felt was that it really didn't leave a natural opening for a third story, it always had a sense of finality about it, that the future was now different. T3's explanation was that Judgement Day was merely delayed, which to me doesn't work, if Judgement Day was inevitable then it had to happen the way it was originally intended to on August 29 1997. If that passes with no incident then the future is an entirely different path, especially with no useful Terminator parts for the military to take advantage of like there was after T1.

I always read it as Judgement day never happened in 1997. The Terminator who is sent back believes it does, but because he is always sent back, always means it never happens that date. Like how Kyle is always sent back stopping the Terminator from killing Sarah. Of course it could still happen on that date, it was what, 2-3 years off?

 

[psylockolussus]

I saw this last night... I expected it to be really bad, but not really. Though it wasn't also good. I didn't really enjoy watching it. The visuals were cool but the story was messy and confusing and at the end I didn't really care. I just wish they just made this as a remake of the first film. John Connor as a villain and Skynet having a virtual body were just so meh. Sarah Connor was miscast and there's a disconnect to Kyle Reese.

 

[dude stannis]

There's being miscast and then there's casting a chipmunk who still has baby fat.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But their in T2. Loud and clear.

And completely not established as being fact in the story.

Sorry, I still consider it relevant. It show's me what Cameron's intentions were when he was crafting the film.

You are confusing intention with what actually happens. It is exactly what dialogue and scenes are cut.

That one line completely correlates with everything that's happening in T2. The entire premise of the film is their attempt to change the future. To think otherwise, completely undermines it's themes.

You are mixing up attempting to change the future and changing the future. Everything that happens in the first two movies correlates with the idea of fate. That those that try and change the future, inevitability cause it.

Nah. It's there to tell the audience that the future has been changed and for the first time Sarah will face that unknown future with hope. That's what the ending symbolizes. Hope.

It would be pretty depressing (and utterly pointless) to think after everything they went through, nothing had changed.

That's not very hopeful, is it.

That is the beauty and sadness of the Terminator saga. John sends his father to die, knowing the hardship it will put on his mother. Doesn't warn his mother to avoid doing what she does, getting sent to the institution, that he is sending a Terminator back. That the one father John ever had kills himself to prevent the inevitable future.

But in the end, it does have a happy ending. John crushes the machines, leads and saves mankind. John is the hope.

Beautiful words, indeed...

From Terminator 2, I believe. A film all about hope and changing your fate.

How can you change fate, if there is no fate?

 

[Scarlet Spider]

And completely not established as being fact in the story.

Just like Judgment Day being inevitable is not established as being fact in the story (T2).

You are confusing intention with what actually happens. It is exactly what dialogue and scenes are cut.

Even in the theatrical cut, what ACTUALLY happens is Sarah is facing an unknown future. Her closing words to the audience.

You are mixing up attempting to change the future and changing the future. Everything that happens in the first two movies correlates with the idea of fate. That those that try and change the future, inevitability cause it.

If Judgment Day can't be prevented, that undermines the entire film. What's the point? If everything our heroes go through, was all futile.

That is the beauty and sadness of the Terminator saga. John sends his father to die, knowing the hardship it will put on his mother. Doesn't warn his mother to avoid doing what she does, getting sent to the institution, that he is sending a Terminator back. That the one father John ever had kills himself to prevent the inevitable future.

But in the end, it does have a happy ending. John crushes the machines, leads and saves mankind. John is the hope.

The death of three billion people from a nuclear apocalypse is your idea of a happy ending?

How can you change fate, if there is no fate?

There is no fate.

 

[jmc]

I always read it as Judgement day never happened in 1997. The Terminator who is sent back believes it does, but because he is always sent back, always means it never happens that date. Like how Kyle is always sent back stopping the Terminator from killing Sarah. Of course it could still happen on that date, it was what, 2-3 years off?

My problem is if there's no way Judgement Day is avoidable then the entire Sarah/John Conner story is all for nothing. It's just one perpetual loop, making the events of the first two films completely meaningless. It means those events have no impact on the outcome of the future because things are already in place for the future war to happen regardless of what happens in T1 and T2. Why I stop at T2 is because it gives me the option of choosing where things go from there, and I choose to believe Sarah and John's story meant something.

 

[The Slang]

John Connor being fathered by Kyle Reese does seem to imply a kind of fate though. Should Skynet (and by extension Judgment day) ever be prevented from existing, then Kyle Reese is never sent back in time, meaning John doesn't exist, which means Skynet is never prevented from existing.
This implies a single time line where any 'change' to the past will inevitably lead to the situation in which the 'change' is made.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

My problem is if there's no way Judgement Day is avoidable then the entire Sarah/John Conner story is all for nothing. It's just one perpetual loop, making the events of the first two films completely meaningless. It means those events have no impact on the outcome of the future because things are already in place for the future war to happen regardless of what happens in T1 and T2. Why I stop at T2 is because it gives me the option of choosing where things go from there, and I choose to believe Sarah and John's story meant something.

I'm with you man. If Judgment Day is unavoidable then it just undermines the entire saga.

T2 pretty much spells out loud & clear, that there is NO FATE.

 

[The Slang]

My problem is if there's no way Judgement Day is avoidable then the entire Sarah/John Conner story is all for nothing. It's just one perpetual loop, making the events of the first two films completely meaningless. It means those events have no impact on the outcome of the future because things are already in place for the future war to happen regardless of what happens in T1 and T2. Why I stop at T2 is because it gives me the option of choosing where things go from there, and I choose to believe Sarah and John's story meant something.

John Connor is destined to save humanity in the future. If Judgment day is avoided, then that is when he has no purpose. Plus, without judgment day there is no series of events that lead to John Connor existing in the first place.

 

[jmc]

John Connor is destined to save humanity in the future. If Judgment day is avoided, then that is when he has no purpose. Plus, without judgment day there is no series of events that lead to John Connor existing in the first place.

His purpose would be different sans Judgement Day and that's the point. I don't care what John Conner is suppose to become as dictated in the original timeline, that's not interesting to me because I already know everything there is to know about him in the first few minutes of T1, what's more interesting is how that war is prevented in the first place and what the aftermath of that is.

 

[jmc]

May have been T2, I can't remember which one had the montage of Conner at the beginning.

 

[The Slang]

His purpose would be different sans Judgement Day and that's the point. I don't care what John Conner is suppose to become as dictated in the original timeline, that's not interesting to me because I already know everything there is to know about him in the first few minutes of T1, what's more interesting is how that war is prevented in the first place and what the aftermath of that is.

But John Connor can't exist without the war first occurring. The fact that Kyle Reese fathers John Connor means that it was Skynet's attempt to alter the timeline which actually lead to the situation in which it attempts to alter the timeline. John Connor's existence necessitates the fact that somewhere in some timeline, the war does happen and that event leads to his conception.

It depends on whether there is only one true timeline, or if multiple potential timelines can affect the past. Even if there is a timeline where the war is prevented, the fact that John Connor exists means that there must be a timeline 'somewhere' where the war does happen.

 

[jmc]

But John Connor can't exist without the war first occurring. The fact that Kyle Reese fathers John Connor means that it was Skynet's attempt to alter the timeline which actually lead to the situation in which it attempts to alter the timeline. John Connor's existence necessitates the fact that somewhere in some timeline, the war does happen and that event leads to his conception.

It depends on whether there is only one true timeline, or if multiple potential timelines can affect the past. Even if there is a timeline where the war is prevented, the fact that John Connor exists means that there must be a timeline 'somewhere' where the war does happen.

And as I said if the war is inevitable the events of T1 and T2 are rendered meaningless. They become prequels to a story's ending we are already aware of.

 

[The Slang]

I don't see how they're meaningless. You seem to be looking at the movies with a 'multiple potential timelines' model as opposed to a 'single timeline' model, but you have to admit that even if the war is prevented in one time line, the fact that john Connor exists means the war still happens in another timeline.

 

[Mr.T]

But John Connor can't exist without the war first occurring. The fact that Kyle Reese fathers John Connor means that it was Skynet's attempt to alter the timeline which actually lead to the situation in which it attempts to alter the timeline. John Connor's existence necessitates the fact that somewhere in some timeline, the war does happen and that event leads to his conception.

It depends on whether there is only one true timeline, or if multiple potential timelines can affect the past. Even if there is a timeline where the war is prevented, the fact that John Connor exists means that there must be a timeline 'somewhere' where the war does happen.

Skynet exists because of John Connor. The Terminator sent back in time in the 80's is the reason for the research that develops Skynet and the reason John is fathered. John and Skynet are not mutually exclusive if we're talking about a single timeline. Crazy to think about it this way but if Humanity wants to stop the "rise of the machines" they should also want John Connor to cease to exist.

 

[jmc]

I don't see how they're meaningless. You seem to be looking at the movies with a 'multiple potential timelines' model as opposed to a 'single timeline' model, but you have to admit that even if the war is prevented in one time line, the fact that john Connor exists means the war still happens in another timeline.

They become meaningless because it means they have no affect on the future. For me I could care less about alternate timelines stories, whether there's one or a billion of them, what I care about is the story that prevents Judgement Day. Whether John Conner exists in another timeline is frankly irrelevant to me, I really don't care.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I never wanted to see older John Connor. All I needed to know was that he kills the machines in the future, which makes him a badass even before his ma' gets it on with Michael Beihn. That's it. I don't need more ****, mayne. This director is ****.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My problem is if there's no way Judgement Day is avoidable then the entire Sarah/John Conner story is all for nothing. It's just one perpetual loop, making the events of the first two films completely meaningless. It means those events have no impact on the outcome of the future because things are already in place for the future war to happen regardless of what happens in T1 and T2. Why I stop at T2 is because it gives me the option of choosing where things go from there, and I choose to believe Sarah and John's story meant something.

Because we are witnessing how we get there. It isn't for nothing. It is the story of Sarah and John Connor. How their story plays out. How John because the man who saves the human race and how Sarah trained him to do so.

Do people just forget the reverence Kyle has for both Sarah and John? They are heroes. They save the human race. Just not by stopping Judgement Day. That the reason the machine sent back the terminators is because they are about to lose?

John's victory is gained the moment he sends his father and the terminator back.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Because we are witnessing how we get there. It isn't for nothing. It is the story of Sarah and John Connor. How their story plays out. How John because the man who saves the human race and how Sarah trained him to do so.

Do people just forget the reverence Kyle has for both Sarah and John? They are heroes. They save the human race. Just not by stopping Judgement Day. That the reason the machine sent back the terminators is because they are about to lose?

John's victory is gained the moment he sends his father and the terminator back.

Well, GOOD FOR YOU!

 

[jmc]

Because we are witnessing how we get there. It isn't for nothing. It is the story of Sarah and John Connor. How their story plays out. How John because the man who saves the human race and how Sarah trained him to do so.

Do people just forget the reverence Kyle has for both Sarah and John? They are heroes. They save the human race. Just not by stopping Judgement Day. That the reason the machine sent back the terminators is because they are about to lose?

John's victory is gained the moment he sends his father and the terminator back.

And like I sad, I choose the more interesting, and hopeful ending.

 

[The Slang]

Skynet exists because of John Connor. The Terminator sent back in time in the 80's is the reason for the research that develops Skynet and the reason John is fathered. John and Skynet are not mutually exclusive if we're talking about a single timeline. Crazy to think about it this way but if Humanity wants to stop the "rise of the machines" they should also want John Connor to cease to exist.

Assuming Skynet invented time travel, it was the use of this technology (for the purpose of killing John Connor) that caused both Skynet and Connor to exist. Skynet seemed to unintentionally create itself and the person who destroyed it.

My understanding of the 'single timeline model' is that because the past always precedes the present any change you make to the past should have already occurred before the act of you changing it. Meaning that it's impossible to alter the past in such a way that you prevent the act of you altering the past. This is similar to the story 'the Time Machine' where the inventor is unable to use time travel to prevent his wife's death, because her death is the reason for him using the time machine.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Just like Judgment Day being inevitable is not established as being fact in the story (T2).

The existence of Kyle and John does establish it as fact.

Even in the theatrical cut, what ACTUALLY happens is Sarah is facing an unknown future. Her closing words to the audience.

Except it is not unknown as established by the first two films. Sarah thinks it is unknown. She is wrong. She is wrong a lot.

If Judgment Day can't be prevented, that undermines the entire film. What's the point? If everything our heroes go through, was all futile.

You assume that stopping Judgment Day is the only way they can achieve victory. It ignores that by trainng John and keeping him alive, he will save the human race. Defeat the machines and establish his own existence by sending himself back in time. Why do you think the terminator in T2 is there? To keep John alive. It is the same reason Kyle goes back. They need John to live. That is like saying there is no victory at the end of the first film because Judgment Day is coming.

Repairing the relationship between John and Sarah also probably helped a bit.

The death of three billion people from a nuclear apocalypse is your idea of a happy ending?

Yes, because humanity survives. They defeat the machines thanks to the actions of John, Sarah, Kyle and Uncle Bob.

There is no fate.

So then how does one defy it?