Terminator: Salvation - The NEW new thread

[Carnotaur3]

But Sarah Connor, Uncle Bob, and Miles Dyson destroyed all the data concerning the development of Skynet and destroyed the final remains of the T-800 from the first movie which dramatically sped up the development of Skynet because the remains formed the basis of Cyberdyne's research.

It took them 11 years to get to where they were in Terminator 2 and they still had another 2 years to get Skynet online and fully operational.

With all the data, designs, and materials destroyed necessary to create Skynet, it would have been impossible for Skynet to be operational in 1997 considering that Cyberdyne and SAC-NORAD would have had to start from scratch without the original T-800's nonfunctional microprocessor to redevelop Dyson's revolutionary microprocessor, install it in most US military computer systems, test our weapons systems with Cyberdyne technology, and pass the Skynet Funding Bill, along with Cyberdyne taking the time to clean up the mess, repair the damage, and decide whether or not to even continue with the project (and even at a fast pace would take months) within 2 years.

And without the Internet Age and the rise of computer technology that we saw in the late 1990's/early 2000's Skynet would have been unable to be in it's current software based form based on 1997 technology.

Right! And Dyson hadn't even FINISHED the microprocessor. It was still "kicking his ass".

I have no doubt that the thing, had it been finished, would have ended up in the hands of the military anyway. Consider how Miles isn't even given an explanation of where the chip and arm came from. Meaning, his superiors are the ones that control his work-flow and anything that comes from it. Of course he was doing it for the good of humanity. That's really irrelevant to where it ends up.

True, Cameron left the ending ambiguous. But I'm willing to bet that if you asked him what he thought happened after his film, he'd tell you that Judgment Day was averted for good. He just didn't want to put in the future coda ending for the simple fact that he wanted others to make up their own minds. The theme of hope was more important than wrapping up the film with a pretty bow.

It would be worse if T2 backed out of its own ideas, and T3 and TS did a good job making the film seem like it meant something to the rest of the series instead of a lost cause, which if everything was supposed to happen the way you say, Solidus, that would be the best term to describe the film.

 

[Rishi]

The original future ending just didn't fit the tone of the film, not was it needed. It was fluff and the dark road ending is much more poignant.

 

[Solidus]

But Sarah Connor, Uncle Bob, and Miles Dyson destroyed all the data concerning the development of Skynet and destroyed the final remains of the T-800 from the first movie which dramatically sped up the development of Skynet because the remains formed the basis of Cyberdyne's research.

It took them 11 years to get to where they were in Terminator 2 and they still had another 2 years to get Skynet online and fully operational.

With all the data, designs, and materials destroyed necessary to create Skynet, it would have been impossible for Skynet to be operational in 1997 considering that Cyberdyne and SAC-NORAD would have had to start from scratch without the original T-800's nonfunctional microprocessor to redevelop Dyson's revolutionary microprocessor, install it in most US military computer systems, test our weapons systems with Cyberdyne technology, and pass the Skynet Funding Bill, along with Cyberdyne taking the time to clean up the mess, repair the damage, and decide whether or not to even continue with the project (and even at a fast pace would take months) within 2 years.

And without the Internet Age and the rise of computer technology that we saw in the late 1990's/early 2000's Skynet would have been unable to be in it's current software based form based on 1997 technology.

As am I, we are assuming. Dyson laid the ground work for it, and did make major breakthroughs. People are putting too much faith in the fact that the chip/arm being destroyed stopped everything. A. The military could have been having a shadow project following Dyson, using his breakthroughs and continuing on. That and the chip I'm sure went under such heavy analysis, and looked under by a microscope. I'm sure all that data (you see Dyson working on it the chip prototype digitally and physically) that all of that stuff has a back up, he probably does not need much more of the chip to make his breakthroughs or some one else follow his work. It was clear they were doing tests and analysing the chip to death. So with out it changes nothing. They don't have to "start from scratch" There are so many ways it can be done with what the drawing board of T2 left us. And with further explanation. The back up stuff would be all the necessary tools to catch up right away to what Dyson did....then just a little further was all he needed for his break through. Then easily some one could have continued his work in with in a month developed what we know as Skynet. It is by no means impossible, you just have to look further into it, (of course a different direction than what you and I are thinking we are clearly looking at this from different vantage points)

It is not impossible. We made the nukes pretty quick, and with all the prototypes destroyed the backups they would have re-created it at fast speed, the military gets too much spending so they can probably build something quick.

To me that was part of the flaw of human, trying to rush to get the machine the best it could be. It did not need to be delayed. Dyson may never have known everything. There are so many possibilities, but it aint near impossible.

EDIT: And I just think we see this from different points. Because there are many things that still would continue on. To me in T2, I always wondered if near the end, working at night, Dyson did have the break through. To me I always figured that everything he did, and the company did it was backed up. It could have in an alternate T3 been explained like this. His work completed, the military takes over and makes the final adjustments. And like I said this is hypothetical, yet still staying true with T1 and T2, in a different light and way. It's just how I would have gone about it.

To me I love Back to the Future and so forth, and Star Trek, but I tire of "alternate realities" to me it is always a cliche with time travel. To me what made T1 and T2 so great especially T1, was the idea, that time travel changes nothing, because in all reality it always happened and there is nothing you can do to change it. If some one created a time machine....that means they always did, and anything you did in the past would be what always really happened anyways, so you cant change it, you actually cause it. And always did. To me I always wanted Terminator to continue that different vein of thought. But yet again that's me.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

As am I, we are assuming. Dyson laid the ground work for it, and did make major breakthroughs. People are putting too much faith in the fact that the chip/arm being destroyed stopped everything. A. The military could have been having a shadow project following Dyson, using his breakthroughs and continuing on. That and the chip I'm sure went under such heavy analysis, and looked under by a microscope. I'm sure all that data (you see Dyson working on it the chip prototype digitally and physically) that all of that stuff has a back up, he probably does not need much more of the chip to make his breakthroughs or some one else follow his work. It was clear they were doing tests and analysing the chip to death. So with out it changes nothing. They don't have to "start from scratch" There are so many ways it can be done with what the drawing board of T2 left us. And with further explanation. The back up stuff would be all the necessary tools to catch up right away to what Dyson did....then just a little further was all he needed for his break through. Then easily some one could have continued his work in with in a month developed what we know as Skynet. It is by no means impossible, you just have to look further into it, (of course a different direction than what you and I are thinking we are clearly looking at this from different vantage points)

It is not impossible. We made the nukes pretty quick, and with all the prototypes destroyed the backups they would have re-created it at fast speed, the military gets too much spending so they can probably build something quick.

To me that was part of the flaw of human, trying to rush to get the machine the best it could be. It did not need to be delayed. Dyson may never have known everything. There are so many possibilities, but it aint near impossible.

EDIT: And I just think we see this from different points. Because there are many things that still would continue on. To me in T2, I always wondered if near the end, working at night, Dyson did have the break through. To me I always figured that everything he did, and the company did it was backed up. It could have in an alternate T3 been explained like this. His work completed, the military takes over and makes the final adjustments. And like I said this is hypothetical, yet still staying true with T1 and T2, in a different light and way. It's just how I would have gone about it.

To me I love Back to the Future and so forth, and Star Trek, but I tire of "alternate realities" to me it is always a cliche with time travel. To me what made T1 and T2 so great especially T1, was the idea, that time travel changes nothing, because in all reality it always happened and there is nothing you can do to change it. If some one created a time machine....that means they always did, and anything you did in the past would be what always really happened anyways, so you cant change it, you actually cause it. And always did. To me I always wanted Terminator to continue that different vein of thought. But yet again that's me.

Totally agree with all this. Dyson wasn't even being told where the chip and arm came from. Both also seemed to be going out often for analysis, destroying everything at his home and the Cyberdyne building couldn't have been all the data. Plus the "good" Terminator ripped off an arm in the steel factory and we never saw John and Sarah destroy that, so there's still another arm out there.

 

[hippie_hunter]

As am I, we are assuming. Dyson laid the ground work for it, and did make major breakthroughs. People are putting too much faith in the fact that the chip/arm being destroyed stopped everything. A. The military could have been having a shadow project following Dyson, using his breakthroughs and continuing on. That and the chip I'm sure went under such heavy analysis, and looked under by a microscope. I'm sure all that data (you see Dyson working on it the chip prototype digitally and physically) that all of that stuff has a back up, he probably does not need much more of the chip to make his breakthroughs or some one else follow his work. It was clear they were doing tests and analysing the chip to death. So with out it changes nothing. They don't have to "start from scratch" There are so many ways it can be done with what the drawing board of T2 left us. And with further explanation. The back up stuff would be all the necessary tools to catch up right away to what Dyson did....then just a little further was all he needed for his break through. Then easily some one could have continued his work in with in a month developed what we know as Skynet. It is by no means impossible, you just have to look further into it, (of course a different direction than what you and I are thinking we are clearly looking at this from different vantage points)

It is not impossible. We made the nukes pretty quick, and with all the prototypes destroyed the backups they would have re-created it at fast speed, the military gets too much spending so they can probably build something quick.

To me that was part of the flaw of human, trying to rush to get the machine the best it could be. It did not need to be delayed. Dyson may never have known everything. There are so many possibilities, but it aint near impossible.

Cyberdyne did have back-ups of Dyson and his teams' work. But Uncle Bob, Dyson, and Sarah went into Cyberdyne and destroyed it all and took the technology that their work was based on with them to destroy it.

And as for the Manhattan Project, it was sped up because of World War II and still took six years for them to successfully create an atomic weapon.

The United States did not have a war to warrant the massive speeding up of technology like World War II did and you cannot just recreate 11 years of work without any basis along with finishing it in two years.

And without the sufficient technology of the late 1990's/early 2000's Skynet could not have been created in it's current form from Terminator 3 in 1997.

EDIT: And I just think we see this from different points. Because there are many things that still would continue on. To me in T2, I always wondered if near the end, working at night, Dyson did have the break through. To me I always figured that everything he did, and the company did it was backed up. It could have in an alternate T3 been explained like this. His work completed, the military takes over and makes the final adjustments. And like I said this is hypothetical, yet still staying true with T1 and T2, in a different light and way. It's just how I would have gone about it.

To me I love Back to the Future and so forth, and Star Trek, but I tire of "alternate realities" to me it is always a cliche with time travel. To me what made T1 and T2 so great especially T1, was the idea, that time travel changes nothing, because in all reality it always happened and there is nothing you can do to change it. If some one created a time machine....that means they always did, and anything you did in the past would be what always really happened anyways, so you cant change it, you actually cause it. And always did. To me I always wanted Terminator to continue that different vein of thought. But yet again that's me.

I'm starting to think that this debate is turning into a draw with us continually countering each other with very valid arguments.

That and we're incredibly huge nerds

 

[hippie_hunter]

Plus the "good" Terminator ripped off an arm in the steel factory and we never saw John and Sarah destroy that, so there's still another arm out there.

OH SNAP!!!!

 

[Solidus]

I'm starting to think that this debate is turning into a draw with us continually countering each other with very valid arguments.

That and we're incredibly huge nerds

LOL I agree. See this is what I love, I love getting in great civil, intelligent discussions like this. My hat is off to you, I just loved debating with you, I wish the forums can always be like this. But I think we are at a draw lol. You came up with some amazing points by the way. And too bad we did not write T3 instead . But its been fun debating and I can't wait to always have fun debates with you in the future.

But yea I think we are nearing that draw area with Terminator lol.

OH SNAP!!!!

Yea lots of us always thought about that back on T3.com. Because one of the first pictures released on the official site was that of just one endo arm attached to a white robotic other arm thing. And though it was deleted from T3 and you could only vaguely see it in the background there was lots of theory that they had recovered the arm. John and Sarah would have likely been running after this. So the arm I always thought would have been a great part in T3. Mostow had some ideas I think about it, but it never seemed to come into fruition, yet again sad that it did.

I know that Hope of the Future has pictures of the arm/lab saved on his site. But we always hoped that story line would have continued on with that in mind.

 

[hippie_hunter]

LOL I agree. See this is what I love, I love getting in great civil, intelligent discussions like this. My hat is off to you, I just loved debating with you, I wish the forums can always be like this. But I think we are at a draw lol. You came up with some amazing points by the way. And too bad we did not write T3 instead . But its been fun debating and I can't wait to always have fun debates with you in the future.

But yea I think we are nearing that draw area with Terminator lol.

I do gotta admit, I did have lots of fun with this discussion , unlike in most movies where people make stupid arguments

And yes, our Terminator 3 would have been epic. Mostly because I (and most likely yourself) wouldn't have made John Connor into such a little crybaby throughout the entire movie

Yea lots of us always thought about that back on T3.com. Because one of the first pictures released on the official site was that of just one endo arm attached to a white robotic other arm thing. And though it was deleted from T3 and you could only vaguely see it in the background there was lots of theory that they had recovered the arm. John and Sarah would have likely been running after this. So the arm I always thought would have been a great part in T3. Mostow had some ideas I think about it, but it never seemed to come into fruition, yet again sad that it did.

I know that Hope of the Future has pictures of the arm/lab saved on his site. But we always hoped that story line would have continued on with that in mind.

Frankly I blame Brancato and Ferris for everything that went wrong in Terminator 3. Like McG, if given a better script, Mostow could have delivered a much stronger film.

Uncle Bob's arm would have been an excellent explanation on why the U.S. Air Force was able to develop advanced robotics like the T-1 and the HK-Aerial in Terminator 3.

The next film better exclude those two hacks.

 

[Alonsovich]

Plus the "good" Terminator ripped off an arm in the steel factory and we never saw John and Sarah destroy that, so there's still another arm out there.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! This just adds a whole new level of detailism to this debate...

 

[Carnotaur3]

Too many people think the arm had something to do with Skynet. It didn't. It was the chip. Any company could make a robotic arm. Stan Winston did it for the film for crying out loud. It was the chip that made it all happen.

Backup files or not, Dyson DIED. It was his research and for someone to pick up where he left off is obviously going to delay Judgment Day.

 

[lzzy]

Interesting thing is that with T2:3D, which Cameron stated he was using as a jumping point for T3, he had Cyberdyne back on track within no time, building T-70's, having a Miles Dyson memorial etc.

Had Cameron made his own T3, would he have made it fit into the casual loop that the earlier films followed, thereby annulling T2's freewill (though I'd go with ambiguous ending)? Logistically, having freewill randomly intervene when you've made one movie and half of another one that follows casual loop doesn't work. Thematically it does, but it's not logical.

It was a big theme of T2 to take everything from T1 and turn it on its head, from the Terminator being the protector, the small skinny guy being the assassin, the Terminator's glasses (in T1 he attains glasses after we know for sure he's a machine, becoming more mantis-like, and his hair is cut like Frankensteins monster, in T2 the T800 starts off with glasses when we think he's pure machine, all bad, but loses them later as he becomes a bona fide, non-killing protector), Sarah becomes a Terminator as the T800 becomes more human, a supposed freewill outcome rather than the casuality outcome of T1 etc

So, with that in mind, was Cameron willing to make a T3 that had JD back on track for 1997?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Oh and also, Terminator: Salvation showed that unlike in the original timeline where most records were destroyed due to the lack of computer backups; Skynet now does have records of the past when Marcus was researching about what happened to Serena Kogan, Judgment Day, Cyberdyne, etc.

The obvious explanation of how Skynet has those records is the plain and simple fact of the rise of the Internet Age and more advanced technology beyond 1997 taking into account of Skynet's development.

But the thing is Salvation didnt explain any of this, neither did T3 for that matter but it wasnt T3's story, it was TS's. It just didnt explain why the future was so different, why everything was moving along at a faster pace than it should have, when it really needed too. In this day and age, sequels are never a sure, especially for a $200 million dollar production. And with the TS dvd sales going poorly, I cant see us getting a sequel personally.

Also, Serena, etc, were all part of Cyberdyne, so I think it is natural for them to have that information, but the Kyle stuff still irks me personally. The records you suggest it could have had access too could just as easily been destroyed in the police station, when the T-800 left it, the building was on fire.

You have made some good points though.

Interesting thing is that with T2:3D, which Cameron stated he was using as a jumping point for T3, he had Cyberdyne back on track within no time, building T-70's, having a Miles Dyson memorial etc.

Had Cameron made his own T3, would he have made it fit into the casual loop that the earlier films followed, thereby annulling T2's freewill (though I'd go with ambiguous ending)? Logistically, having freewill randomly intervene when you've made one movie and half of another one that follows casual loop doesn't work. Thematically it does, but it's not logical.

It was a big theme of T2 to take everything from T1 and turn it on its head, from the Terminator being the protector, the small skinny guy being the assassin, the Terminator's glasses (in T1 he attains glasses after we know for sure he's a machine, becoming more mantis-like, and his hair is cut like Frankensteins monster, in T2 the T800 starts off with glasses when we think he's pure machine, all bad, but loses them later as he becomes a bona fide, non-killing protector), Sarah becomes a Terminator as the T800 becomes more human, a supposed freewill outcome rather than the casuality outcome of T1 etc

So, with that in mind, was Cameron willing to make a T3 that had JD back on track for 1997?

I personally believe Cameron did plan to do a T3, but when the owners came to him with a script not written by him after he had just won 11 oscars, I think that was the ultimate insult to him and that was it.

 

[Bim]

And yes, our Terminator 3 would have been epic. Mostly because I (and most likely yourself) wouldn't have made John Connor into such a little crybaby throughout the entire movie

This is the biggest problem i have with T3, i didnt really buy into this John Connor at all

 

[lzzy]

I personally believe Cameron did plan to do a T3, but when the owners came to him with a script not written by him after he had just won 11 oscars, I think that was the ultimate insult to him and that was it.

Well, there is a quote from Cameron which goes, "Using someone else's script in a universe I ****ing originated held no appeal to me whatsoever" (paraphrasing). There was also the fact that Kassar re-bought the rights without telling James when they had lunch days earlier. Apparently James was relying on Fox to bid.

 

[Warhammer]

It's safe to say that in a parallel universe where James Cameron ended up making his T3, it wouldn't have messed up continuity which means we would have no huge debates that repeat themselves and two Terminator films that pale in comparison to the first two.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well, there is a quote from Cameron which goes, "Using someone else's script in a universe I ****ing originated held no appeal to me whatsoever" (paraphrasing). There was also the fact that Kassar re-bought the rights without telling James when they had lunch days earlier. Apparently James was relying on Fox to bid.

Yeah, I think after that Cameron was officially done with the franchise, it was the ultimate insult, especially after he had just won the oscars!

 

[lzzy]

Considering the success of Titanic and Avatar, I'm surprised that FOX haven't made a move on the rights.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

This is the biggest problem i have with T3, i didnt really buy into this John Connor at all

Agreed. Furlong might not have been the best actor in the world but he wasn't playing a wussy Connor. I don't know if it was the actor's fault but I didn't believe the John Connor in T3.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Agreed. Furlong might not have been the best actor in the world but he wasn't playing a wussy Connor. I don't know if it was the actor's fault but I didn't believe the John Connor in T3.

They should have made the JC in T3 17, 18 and it would have been fine for him to act like he did. Nick Stahl didnt do nothing wrong for me, good performance with what he was given, but the character was written too young for him.

 

[StylishHokie21]

I finally got around to watching Terminator Salvation and don't see what's so special about it. I kept hearing constantly how much better it was than Terminator 3. After going into it with an open mind, I can honestly say I enjoyed T3 more than TS. I did like Sam Worthington and Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese though. This movie did not need to be made and it's clear that they're just milking this franchise now.

 

[Ipodman]

I finally got around to watching Terminator Salvation and don't see what's so special about it. I kept hearing constantly how much better it was than Terminator 3. After going into it with an open mind, I can honestly say I enjoyed T3 more than TS. I did like Sam Worthington and Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese though. This movie did not need to be made and it's clear that they're just milking this franchise now.

Hmm... like how some people enjoyed X3 more than Wolverine...

 

[StylishHokie21]

Hmm... like how some people enjoyed X3 more than Wolverine...

I liked Wolverine more than X3, but they're both pretty bad compared to the first two X-Men movies. It's just like the Terminator movies. The first two were great, but the sequels were mediocre.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I think Wolverine and X3 is exactly how I feel about Salvation and T3.

I enjoyed Salvation more but I think T3 is probably a more well-made film just like how I enjoyed Wolverine more but I think X3 is a more well-made film. And either way, both are lame compared to the first two.

 

[StylishHokie21]

I think Wolverine and X3 is exactly how I feel about Salvation and T3.

I enjoyed Salvation more but I think T3 is probably a more well-made film just like how I enjoyed Wolverine more but I think X3 is a more well-made film. And either way, both are lame compared to the first two.

I'm glad to see we're on the same page.

 

[Ipodman]

Well.. the future of the Terminator franchise is yet to be seen...
but i hope X-men steps up its quality...