Transformers The All-spark who's ******ed idea was this...

[ShadowBoxing]

Sorry for having an analytical mind rather than an ecyclopediac one.

It's easy to analyze something you know little to nothing about as you can put any spin on it you want.

As others have pointed out, subtext isn't always something a writer knowingly puts into fiction.

No, that's not true. Subtext is "Subtext is content of a book, play, musical work, film or television series which is not announced explicitly by the characters (or author) but is implicit." It's not however "whatever the f*** I want to BS onto a piece of work". The Subtext of Blade Runner for example is the ambiguity between artificial life and human life since it's implicit in the plot (which confuses the observer on Harrison Ford's character's humanity). Subtext exists below the text, but it has to be shown within the text. That's how subtext works. It's beneath the existing text. It's not explicitly said in Blade Runner "hey humans an andriods aren't that different, think about it", instead lines and text point to this through indirect ways.

In fact, the best writing is one that doesn't know it's good writing.

No, twenty thousand monkies at a type writer won't write for you A Tale of Two Cities.

And, I never claimed Bob Budiansky was trying to say ANYTHING. I'm only saying the events of the time seeped into the premise of Transformers.

PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!! Your insistence that it was something the writer did unintentionally is bunk, no offense. The comic was written under strict supervision by Hasbro, in fact Simon Furman talks about how "All Fall Down" and "End of the Road" (arguably the comics two best stories) happened only because Hasbro turned a blind eye to the comic. If you're looking for subtext or things that "seeped" into the premise I got it for you: buy these toys.

Fine it was a toy commercial. That doesn't mean it wasn't an intelligent commercial. Answer me this: Why weren't Transformers- from day one- fighting over a castle... or searching for their "creator" like Gobots?

Why, if it's suppose to be a environmental, socio political analogy were the Transformers - from day one - fighting over a vague substance known as energon which could come from anywhere instead of oil. Why - from day one - was the military, the political leaders, and the political events of that era left totally out of the show. Why - from day one - were the Transformers able to last 4 million years without (apparently) any energon on their planet? Why - from day one - were the Transformers not focused on character development but merely showcasing the characters one by one in a exposition type fashion.

Shows like Robotech made reference to the Cold War, World Wars and attempts at World Governments. They even talked about the failures of the League of Nations and UN, and went onto even criticize the warlike nature of mankind. So it wasn't the cartoon warlords who somehow were stifling Transformers from getting political or making a message. Transformers just wasn't interested in getting political or making a message. They were too busy selling toys. You can take the premise of Transformers and run with it, but it doesn't change the original show or make it something brillant. Beast Machines in fact took it and made it an extremely hippish, environmental, tree hugging show. But it doesn't mean the original was anything like that (considering BM was criticized for being too far afield of the original and BW).

 

[ShadowBoxing]

And that's a dumbing down.

Crystals, gas, perpetual energy sources in Aztec temples, useless sh** from Wheeljack's lab, a mystical crystal at the north pole, a necklace, a super computer, other Transformers, Quintessa, Planet Monicus, a Volcano, a fictional Dinobot Island, Electrical planets, a super secret formula developed by a scientist, the weather, electrical storms, a spinning wheel in King Arthurs Court, Novas, the Sun, the energy created by two opposing Planet's, some sort of undeclared superfuel, natural gas, rubies, hydro power - - we officially got vague about three lines in. It's not dumbing it down.

 

[CFlash]

Yes, you can "BS stuff onto a pieces of work." You can also BS stuff out of it. I'm not arguing that Transformers wasn't a toy commercial, or that it was "brilliant" in a some Shakesperean way. What I AM saying is that the events of the time seeped into the writing. I'm arguing one thing, you're arguing another.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Crystals, gas, perpetual energy sources in Aztec temples, useless sh** from Wheeljack's lab, a mystical crystal at the north pole, a necklace, a super computer, other Transformers, Quintessa, Planet Monicus, a Volcano, a fictional Dinobot Island, Electrical planets, a super secret formula developed by a scientist, the weather, electrical storms, a spinning wheel in King Arthurs Court, Novas, the Sun, the energy created by two opposing Planet's, some sort of undeclared superfuel, natural gas, rubies, hydro power - - we officially got vague about three lines in. It's not dumbing it down.

Lol, Good points!
but I haven't seen you really weigh in on what Movies asked in the lead post of the thread. Is the magic box a more laudible idea than the cartoons origins story? And additionally does it make sense to use a magic box over the other idea, especially after they stated they wanted to make this property more realistic and relevant?

 

[CFlash]

Crystals, gas, perpetual energy sources in Aztec temples, useless sh** from Wheeljack's lab, a mystical crystal at the north pole, a necklace, a super computer, other Transformers, Quintessa, Planet Monicus, a Volcano, a fictional Dinobot Island, Electrical planets, a super secret formula developed by a scientist, the weather, electrical storms, a spinning wheel in King Arthurs Court, Novas, the Sun, the energy created by two opposing Planet's, some sort of undeclared superfuel, natural gas, rubies, hydro power - - we officially got vague about three lines in. It's not dumbing it down.

All places where you can get salt: A dried up lake bed, underground mineral deposits, a cave, ocean water, eating other humans (remember your little quip about getting Energon from other bots), your dining table (wheeljack's lab?), AND created in the laboratory of some mad(sarcasm) scientist. ALL extrememly hard to acquire up until just 85 years ago. What's your point?

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I love the movie, you can look for my review around so take me as a troll... But I can't wrap my head around the stupidity of the All-Spark...

WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND WOULD THINK A MAGIC CUBE WAS A GOOD IDEA? SOMEONE TELL ME!! PLEASE!!!

I would have never thought of hearing a coment like that from you.I thought the All Spark was a good idea,and the concept was put out good in the film.

 

[CFlash]

Lol, Good points!
but I haven't seen you really weigh in on what Movies asked in the lead post of the thread. Is the magic box a more laudible idea than the cartoons origins story? And additionally does it make sense to use a magic box over the other idea, especially after they stated they wanted to make this property more realistic and relevant?

Yes. Back on topic. But your question makes the assumption that the original story was actually about something. I dunno... machines, "energon," energy crisis, war... doesn't really say much about our current world and problems. (yeah, I'm being sarcastic).

 

[Grievous]

I wish they just would've made the Allspark a source of infinite energy. I don't really dig the idea that casual household appliances could turn into Transformers and form weapons out of thin air.

lol I liked it when it turned the Xbox 360 into a transformer.

 

[iLLy_DNA]

I actually like the Allspark idea. I don't know if its the BEST origin but it works for the movie. It has enough explanation that you can take it at face value and enjoy the movie but its left mysterious enough that it doesn't bog down the narrative trying to explain it and if you want you can plug in the details.

We don't know what made the cube. We don't know who controls the cube. Is it like our sun? Is it magic, is there more to it. When I thought about it, I don't see it actually giving birth to transformers. The machine has to be made...by something. It has to have parts, and from what I can tell, it needs a brain. Everything that changed into a robot had a computer. So the Allspark gives that life but it doesn't necessarily give it a soul. I think its plenty thought provoking and could be explained more in the sequels if they want but they don't have to.

 

[user123456789]

in fairness movies, they both kinda suck...

lol

 

[CFlash]

I actually like the Allspark idea. I don't know if its the BEST origin but it works for the movie. It has enough explanation that you can take it at face value and enjoy the movie but its left mysterious enough that it doesn't bog down the narrative trying to explain it and if you want you can plug in the details.

We don't know what made the cube. We don't know who controls the cube. Is it like our sun? Is it magic, is there more to it. When I thought about it, I don't see it actually giving birth to transformers. The machine has to be made...by something. It has to have parts, and from what I can tell, it needs a brain. Everything that changed into a robot had a computer. So the Allspark gives that life but it doesn't necessarily give it a soul. I think its plenty thought provoking and could be explained more in the sequels if they want but they don't have to.

I can understand the cell phone, but I'm not so sure about Mountain Dew machine. Maybe.

 

[CFlash]

No, that's not true. Subtext is "Subtext is content of a book, play, musical work, film or television series which is not announced explicitly by the characters (or author) but is implicit." It's not however "whatever the f*** I want to BS onto a piece of work". The Subtext of Blade Runner for example is the ambiguity between artificial life and human life since it's implicit in the plot (which confuses the observer on Harrison Ford's character's humanity). Subtext exists below the text, but it has to be shown within the text. That's how subtext works. It's beneath the existing text. It's not explicitly said in Blade Runner "hey humans an andriods aren't that different, think about it", instead lines and text point to this through indirect ways.

I wasn't gonna comment at first... but I made a mistake and re-read your post a second time and it became even funnier. You so missed the point of Bladerunner if you think it was simply about that.

 

[tekken]

i thought the allspark was a good idea. it was cool to see something different besides the cliche battle for energon. but since the cube is gone, what the heck will they fight for now?...probably energon. lol.

 

[iLLy_DNA]

Just to expand a little more on what i said before. A modern vending machine would have at least some sort of circuitry or chip in it that could act as a brain. The cube makes enhances its capabilities to a form of intelligence. Smart enough to manuever its own pieces to make a robot form and apparently weaponry lol But something's missing. Something seperates them from the real Transformers whch would lead me to believe there's something more to it. I doubt the writers thought this much into it but you'd think theres something working the cube in some way that can deliver that bit of life and soul into them. Unicron, Quintessintions or whatever they are, what have you. Which would leave room to have weirder and more out there concepts like combiners and mass shifting.

The concept has its potentials.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I wasn't gonna comment at first... but I made a mistake and re-read your post a second time and it became even funnier. You so missed the point of Bladerunner if you think it was simply about that.

I was using one example. I'm not going to muddle a whole post by talking in depth about a subject that is merely being used as an illustration.

 

[CFlash]

Just to expand a little more on what i said before. A modern vending machine would have at least some sort of circuitry or chip in it that could act as a brain. The cube makes enhances its capabilities to a form of intelligence. Smart enough to manuever its own pieces to make a robot form and apparently weaponry lol But something's missing. Something seperates them from the real Transformers whch would lead me to believe there's something more to it. I doubt the writers thought this much into it but you'd think theres something working the cube in some way that can deliver that bit of life and soul into them. Unicron, Quintessintions or whatever they are, what have you. Which would leave room to have weirder and more out there concepts like combiners and mass shifting.

The concept has its potentials.

I'm can't imagine how a glorified electrical logic circuit not much different than a collection of the light switches in your apartment can turn into a intelligent robot with legs and guns. Can the AllSpark bring a slide ruler to life too?

 

[CFlash]

I was using one example. I'm not going to muddle a whole post by talking in depth about a subject that is merely being used as an illustration.

And it was a bad illustration. Bladerunner has many subtexts... none if which are about Human beings being no different than Androids. But if I were to bring in Descartes and/or the religious analogies you would say its BS, I'm sure.

 

[Kap]

The all-spark is subtext free, we might as well accept it. Comic book adaptations always contains a certain amount of compromises. Transformers is one of those that had to work both for mainstream audiences and fans. It's still an awsome origin movie.

 

[Grievous]

I liked the Allspark idea, what other idea could they of used?

 

[Kap]

^ well, the original one if we had our way.

The thing is that the story for Transformers was probably written around the action to support certain setpieces. As opposed to action supporting a strong story.

The first Spiderman movie is a perfect example of good writing supported by strong visuals and it was still outdone by the sequel. That could happen to Transformers as well.

 

[CFlash]

The all-spark is subtext free, we might as well accept it. Comic book adaptations always contains a certain amount of compromises. Transformers is one of those that had to work both for mainstream audiences and fans. It's still an awsome origin movie.

I dunno. This might be the first adapatation I've seen that completely ignores (or actually turns upside down) the social commentary of the source. X-Men didn't paint the Brotherhood as a simple band of bank robbers looking for power and prestige... It got the "alienation" thing right. Spidey was more than a dorky kid trying to get the girl... It got the "With great power..." thing right. Even Batman 89 got the "who are you without me" thing right with the Joker.

Imagine the Transformers movie... same exact movie but with different names like like "Leader-1" instead of "Optimus Prime." It would still be the same movie and just as good, no?

 

[Kap]

I dunno. This might be the first adapatation I've seen that completely ignores (or actually turns upside down) the social commentary of the source. X-Men didn't paint the Brotherhood as a simple band of bank robbers looking for power and prestige... It got the "alienation" thing right. Spidey was more than a dorky kid trying to get the girl... It got the "With great power..." thing right. Even Batman 89 got the "who are you without me" thing right with the Joker.

Imagine the Transformers movie... same exact movie but with different names like like "Leader-1" instead of "Optimus Prime." It would still be the same movie and just as good, no?

I'm not sure I can agree with the part about completely ignoring the source material, I think TF actually got a lot of stuff right. The motives and beliefs of the Autobots were totally there. The self-sacrificing honorable behaviour of Optimus Prime and his subbordinates that have resonated through both G1 cartoons and comics were allmost spot on. The dialog and teamwork amongst the autobots were there. Even the conflict between Decepticons and Autobots with humans being stuck in the middle of everything were also very true to the original concepts.

Yes there were a lot that got lost in translation, especially the personalities of Decepticons other than Megatron. And the mother of all fights (Prime vs Megs) were pretty much cut to small pieces. But I can forgive that as much as I can forgive Sam Raimi for leaving out one of the most important aspects of Peter Parker/Spider-Man in his adaptation which was the wise-cracking cocky Spider-Man that SM fans love.

Why can I forgive these things? Because TF succeeds in the same way that Spider-Man did for me, both are very very solid movies that introduces us to a fictional world in a realistic way with both action and humour. Leaving me with an epic feeling when I exit the theaters. And neither a dull Parker, PowerRanger'ish Green Goblin, silent Starscream or the Allspark will change that for me.

I'm not bashing on you CF, or anyone else who feel disapointed in the way this movie turned out. Just trying to explain why I liked it as an origin, despite of everything that could have been done better.

 

[CFlash]

I'm not sure I can agree with the part about completely ignoring the source material, I think TF actually got a lot of stuff right. The motives and beliefs of the Autobots were totally there. The self-sacrificing honorable behaviour of Optimus Prime and his subbordinates that have resonated through both G1 cartoons and comics were allmost spot on. The dialog and teamwork amongst the autobots were there. Even the conflict between Decepticons and Autobots with humans being stuck in the middle of everything were also very true to the original concepts.

Yes there were a lot that got lost in translation, especially the personalities of Decepticons other than Megatron. And the mother of all fights (Prime vs Megs) were pretty much cut to small pieces. But I can forgive that as much as I can forgive Sam Raimi for leaving out one of the most important aspects of Peter Parker/Spider-Man in his adaptation which was the wise-cracking cocky Spider-Man that SM fans love.

Why can I forgive these things? Because TF succeeds in the same way that Spider-Man did for me, both are very very solid movies that introduces us to a fictional world in a realistic way with both action and humour. Leaving me with an epic feeling when I exit the theaters. And neither a dull Parker, PowerRanger'ish Green Goblin, silent Starscream or the Allspark will change that for me.

I'm not bashing on you CF, or anyone else who feel disapointed in the way this movie turned out. Just trying to explain why I liked it as an origin, despite of everything that could have been done better.

I know. I hear ya. Your entire post reminds me of how I felt (and still feel) about Batman 89. I was 15 way back when... big Frank Miller and old detective Bats fans... and loved (loved!) the movie. But recognized instantly how lame the story was once I saw it on VHS a few months later... but STILL loved it. I wish I could view Transformers through those same eyes.

 

[nogster]

i have the opposite reaction to u cflash.
okay...batman and transformers are my favourite fictional characters of all time...i love them, i own the ultimate guide books to both of them, as well as box set dvds and some comics,
and i loved batman 89 when it 1st came out .. only because finally batman was being portrayed as a badass....and like u instantly recognized the lameness and horrid faults after subsequent viewings, but unlike u, i couldnt love it anymore..i dont even own it....i cant bring myself to.
but with transformers, i know it strays from the source material, i know it has lameness etc....but i love it! it just rocked my world....maybe in a few years my opinion will change, but hopefully by then. transformers 2 will be out and starscream will get his time to shine and we will get a story that is transformers at its base level, the autobots protecting the earth from the decepticons who intend on sucking the earth dry of energy, destroying it in the process... and hopefully the space bridge will be the tool used to do this. "the ultimate doom" ??
thats the next logical step. let hope so....

 

[Vilya]

If the All Spark was formed well before the universe, dosen't it mean it's indestructable?