The Atheism Thread - Part 6

[MrsKent26]

This very topic seems to have a bit of that going on >_>

What do you mean?

 

[DeadPresident]

What do you mean?

From reading some of the posts it seems like as many atheists interpret things to their convenience as much as religious zealots do. I'm a fence sitter so I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems like each side accuses each other of the same transgressions from time to time.

I'm never really interested in the outcome of the debate per se, because it all boils down to what strength of speculation people want to invest in. I just like observing what people's arguments say about themselves.

 

[Defacto]

From reading some of the posts it seems like as many atheists interpret things to their convenience as much as religious zealots do.

Can you give an example of such behaviour?

 

[MrsKent26]

From reading some of the posts it seems like as many atheists interpret things to their convenience as much as religious zealots do. I'm a fence sitter so I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems like each side accuses each other of the same transgressions from time to time.

I'm never really interested in the outcome of the debate per se, because it all boils down to what strength of speculation people want to invest in. I just like observing what people's arguments say about themselves.

Well...if you want a brutally honest opinion (if you didn't, I apologize, but I feel like I should be able to say this in this thread), I think this whole debate is rather similar to the debates that probably took place when people went from thinking the world is flat to thinking it's round. One side (it's flat!) was going by little more than unsubstantiated tales passed down generations that became fact by way of longevity. The other side (it's round) had actual logic and evidence to support their cause. That was a debate that lasted centuries and is now virtually settled. As an atheist, I will on occasion debate people about specifics of the Bible or any religion more so for amusement and thoroughness than anything else. To me, it's as clean cut as the world being round. The debate is simply academic at this point. So it's probably true that similar accusations are made, but some beliefs lend themselves more easily to such accusations as their underlying foundations are infinitely weaker.

 

[DeadPresident]

Can you give an example of such behaviour?

Page 13. That's as far as my contribution will go, I'm not really interested into getting into a semantic argument about why I'm wrong/someone else is right if that's what your next step would have been. If it wasn't, I apologize in advance.

Well...if you want a brutally honest opinion (if you didn't, I apologize, but I feel like I should be able to say this in this thread), I think this whole debate is rather similar to the debates that probably took place when people went from thinking the world is flat to thinking it's round. One side (it's flat!) was going by little more than unsubstantiated tales passed down generations that became fact by way of longevity. The other side (it's round) had actual logic and evidence to support their cause. That was a debate that lasted centuries and is now virtually settled. As an atheist, I will on occasion debate people about specifics of the Bible or any religion more so for amusement and thoroughness than anything else. To me, it's as clean cut as the world being round. The debate is simply academic at this point. So it's probably true that similar accusations are made, but some beliefs lend themselves more easily to such accusations as their underlying foundations are infinitely weaker.

No apology necessary. All fair points, and a reasonable way of approaching things. The only place where my doubt comes in is the fact that we still don't know what we don't know. At some point people thought it was a good idea to make heaters out of asbestos, not knowing it was implicated in causing cancer because they only had certain evidence at their disposal. We can only use what we have at our disposal to explain our circumstances, maybe we have discovered the majority of what's necessary to make a conclusive statement. At the back of my mind I always wonder if this debate isn't just another one in a long line of humans thinking the current generation has everything figured out.

Maybe atheists are 100% correct, and all the knowledge about this particular discussion has been found, but I tend towards doubt. Like a lot of arguments my personal gut-reaction is the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But what do I know

 

[The End]

Understand that atheism is not necessarily the position that a person knows no gods exist.

Atheism addresses belief.

Agnosticism addresses knowledge.

A person can be an agnostic atheist. As in, they do not know a god exists, they have not been convinced and so don't believe.

An understanding of logic demands that its the theist, the person claiming to know a god exists, that has the burden of proof and if they can't demonstrate a god exists, we have no reason to believe them. It's really as simple as that. It is not the position that we know everything.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

No apology necessary. All fair points, and a reasonable way of approaching things. The only place where my doubt comes in is the fact that we still don't know what we don't know. At some point people thought it was a good idea to make heaters out of asbestos, not knowing it was implicated in causing cancer because they only had certain evidence at their disposal. We can only use what we have at our disposal to explain our circumstances, maybe we have discovered the majority of what's necessary to make a conclusive statement. At the back of my mind I always wonder if this debate isn't just another one in a long line of humans thinking the current generation has everything figured out.

Maybe atheists are 100% correct, and all the knowledge about this particular discussion has been found, but I tend towards doubt. Like a lot of arguments my personal gut-reaction is the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But what do I know

Just gonna lay this down... It's ok to have an open mind, but not so much you let your brain fall out. t: Just saying, the balance you appreciate should extend to your skepticism as well, especially when it comes to the philosophy of the scientific method, which for the purely physical world has TONS of evidence behind it that is testable by anyone if they so choose to. The scientific method is not just some kind of rhetorical jujitsu, it has things everyone can feel, touch, taste and pass through their lower intestines to back it up.

Now if it comes to the nebulous and paradoxical phenomenon of the nature of man and the race's existence in this universe beyond the physical which also make up this life of ours, those things which truly are outside of "pure science", the workings of man's thoughts, intentions, feelings, imagination? That's another story...

 

[Dr.]

From reading some of the posts it seems like as many atheists interpret things to their convenience as much as religious zealots do. I'm a fence sitter so I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems like each side accuses each other of the same transgressions from time to time.

I'm never really interested in the outcome of the debate per se, because it all boils down to what strength of speculation people want to invest in...

In my experience, there’s a pronounced lack of speculation on the atheist side. Naturalism (for which there’s abundant evidence) is taken as the default position. Supernaturalism (for which there is no evidence) is the thing that’s speculative.

 

[Hobgoblin]

North Carolina teenager gets death threats for starting an atheist club at her high school.

 

[KevanG]

Now that's how to proclaim your faith is one of peace, love and tolerance.

 

[regwec]

Infidel Britain strikes another blow against religious dogmatism.

 

[KevanG]

Aw, too bad PW is gone. He'd have had a field day with those words of yours. Without reading the article even.

 

[Warhammer]

You can ask DS about this but the other day he got into it with me, the next C Lee had removed a bunch of his posts, the next he vanished without a trace. Apparently I'm more well connected than I thought.

S***, you're pretty damn good. You've got a silent guardian, a watchful protector...

 

[MrsKent26]

In my experience, there’s a pronounced lack of speculation on the atheist side. Naturalism (for which there’s abundant evidence) is taken as the default position. Supernaturalism (for which there is no evidence) is the thing that’s speculative.

Well said. I'm sure everyone has a difference experience with atheists, but this is what I've found to be true.

I think it has to do with the fact that the core arguments of atheism are straightforward.

Atheists are essentially saying: I don't believe this thing exists.

Christians, for example, are saying: I know this thing exists and not only that, but it's omnipotent and many people should and do live by it's commandments. Also, it sent its son here to die for us, etc.

The latter requires that they prove this thing and it's rather hard to prove; hence some pretty fantastic arguments must be made.

 

[Feenix]

Anyone keeping up with the news in Nigeria?

An Islamic group burned a school to the ground and killed 22 students. This group routinely attacks schools and guns down innocent people in villages.

Religion kills. As Richard Dawkins says: Some good people are religious. Some good people are atheists. All who stone people are religious. All who cut hands off are religious.

**** this Islamic group.

 

[MrsKent26]

Anyone keeping up with the news in Nigeria?

An Islamic group burned a school to the ground and killed 22 students. This group routinely attacks schools and guns down innocent people in villages.

Religion kills. As Richard Dawkins says: Some good people are religious. Some good people are atheists. All who stone people are religious. All who cut hands off are religious.

**** this Islamic group.

Religion is (and has been for centuries) a plague on this Earth. I realize it's radical to say that...but I'm saying it anyways. It gives psychos a mask to hide behind and they don't need any more help in a world that also creates guns.

 

[Marvolo]

Religion is (and has been for centuries) a plague on this Earth. I realize it's radical to say that...but I'm saying it anyways. It gives psychos a mask to hide behind and they don't need any more help in a world that also creates guns.

It's not religions fault that psychos use it as a mask. All systems can be warped by the crazies. Doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Religion and spirituality isn't the plague. It's the misuse of it by the sociopaths that is the plague.

Take islam for instance. These actions are explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an. The only way of justifying these actions are to severely warp it and take it's words far out of context, and any person who does that doesn't need a Qur'an to justify their actions. They've already justified them in their own head and will use anything as evidence to back up their beliefs. If not religion they will find something else to do that with. Religion isn't the problem. It's the people.

 

[jaymes_e06]

It's not religions fault that psychos use it as a mask. All systems can be warped by the crazies. Doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Religion and spirituality isn't the plague. It's the misuse of it by the sociopaths that is the plague.

This.

 

[MrsKent26]

It's not religions fault that psychos use it as a mask. All systems can be warped by the crazies. Doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. The actual plague is the sociopaths.

Take islam for instance. These actions are explicitly forbidden. The only way of justifying these actions are to severely warp it and take it's words far out of context, and any person who does that doesn't need a quran to justify their actions. They've already justified them in their own head and will use anything as evidence to back up their beliefs. If not religion they will find something else to do that with.

I see what you mean, but I still think there are many factors that contribute to extreme actions. Religion, while not the only one, is a factor. Sure, some folks don't do anything crazy with it, but for others, it's one more push in a certain direction. Some people are sheep and do what they're told, whether it be by a god of sorts or a dictator that uses a god as a vehicle. There are also many interpretations of any god's words. People see what they want to see to justify their actions. Having access to these words does no favors to impressionable people.

 

[Marvolo]

I see what you mean, but I still think there are many factors that contribute to extreme actions. Religion, while not the only one, is a factor. Sure, some folks don't do anything crazy with it, but for others, it's one more push in a certain direction. Some people are sheep and do what they're told, whether it be by a god of sorts or a dictator that uses a god as a vehicle. There are also many interpretations of any god's words. People see what they want to see to justify their actions. Having access to these words does no favors to impressionable people.

Yeah but we can't get rid of religion just because it can be misused. That's no way to run society. A better action would be to acknowledge the problems (the sociopaths and the people who misuse religion and the reasons for their actions) and treat the problem not the symptoms. Misuse of religion is a symptom in a much bigger problem. A problem that is complex and caused by literally thousands of factors that are unique to region and culture.

 

[MrsKent26]

Yeah but we can't get rid of religion just because it can be misused. That's no way to run society. A better action would be to acknowledge the problems (the sociopaths and the people who misuse religion and the reasons for their actions) and treat the problem not the symptoms. Misuse of religion is a symptom in a much bigger problem.

Oh we'll never get rid of religion. I'm not elected Queen of the Universe yet, lol.

And I can only imagine how hard it would be to teach extremists what proper use of religion is. I think believing in things that can't be proven just prompts a line of thought that is difficult to deal with. But, perhaps people would find these boundaries for themselves if the other things were solved? Who knows.

 

[Marvolo]

Oh we'll never get rid of religion. I'm not elected Queen of the Universe yet, lol.

And I can only imagine how hard it would be to teach extremists what proper use of religion is. I think believing in things that can't be proven just prompts a line of thought that is difficult to deal with. But, perhaps people would find these boundaries for themselves if the other things were solved? Who knows.

Upbringing and environment is a major influence on all of us. Some of us are fortunate enough to grow up in a system with a culture, a situation, and family that nurtures logical deductive healthy actions and thoughts. Others are not so lucky. Now tac dangerous indoctrination on top of the unlucky one's other problems and you've got a powder keg ready to blow. So really it comes down to responsibility. The entire world has to come to a decision to be responsible and nurture healthy behavior and see to it that people aren't suffering regardless of borders or race. Suffering and injustice breeds this type of extremist behavior.

I don't expect humanity to come to thiss type of clarity in my lifetime. There is too much greed in the ruling classes for that type of thinking. They only care about themselves and to hell with all the rest.

 

[MrsKent26]

Upbringing and environment is a major influence on all of us. Some of us are fortunate enough to grow up in a system with a culture, a situation, and family that nurtures logical deductive healthy actions and thoughts. Others are not so lucky. Now tac dangerous indoctrination on top of the unlucky one's other problems and you've got a powder keg ready to blow. So really it comes down to responsibility. The entire world has to come to a decision to be responsible and nurture healthy behavior and see to it that people aren't suffering regardless of borders or race. Suffering and injustice breeds this type of extremist behavior.

I don't expect humanity to come to thiss type of clarity in my lifetime. There is too much greed in the ruling classes for that type of thinking. They only care about themselves and to hell with all the rest.

Well, that's really too bad. It would be a lovely world. And it seems we agree that indoctrination is a factor. I just single it out more because it's illogical to me and I think a more well-adjusted world wouldn't turn to it as much. But I also agree with the rest. Well said.

 

[regwec]

I'm always astonished to see people claim that [insert act of violence or genocide] is prohibited by the Qu'ran. Like the Bible, it is a very muddled book, but you can find an endorsement of anything you like within it. While Christianity was a religion that was pacifist at its inception but became violent; Islam was born from violence and has fostered an extremely aggressive and intolerant outlook ever since.

People tend to make excuses for Islam while they bash Christianity, probably because practitioners of Islam tend to be ethnic minorities in the West. I think that's unwise, however: all religion is dangerous.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm always astonished to see people claim that [insert act of violence or genocide] is prohibited by the Qu'ran. Like the Bible, it is a very muddled book, but you can find an endorsement of anything you like within it. While Christianity was a religion that was pacifist at its inception but became violent; Islam was born from violence and has fostered an extremely aggressive and intolerant outlook ever since.

People tend to make excuses for Islam while they bash Christianity, probably because practitioners of Islam tend to be ethnic minorities in the West. I think that's unwise, however: all religion is dangerous.

It might also just be that some people know tolerant, gentle and peaceful Muslims in their life who act as they do BECAUSE of their faith, not despite it? Just a thought. Just as when one meets a follower of Christ who truly believes and acts by "Love thy neighbor".