The Atheism Thread - Part 6

[KevanG]

"You and me baby ain't nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"

 

[Gr0oT]

Agreed.

He was pretty damn old school in his biblical views.

That's one of the problems with the bible, it can be used to promote vitriol of the nastiest kind. There is a lot of love within it's pages but to me it just grants illegitimacy to the book when there is about 10 thousand interpretations.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I don't think we were the reason the thread was closed. There have been debates in that thread before, and it just took a mod to get everyone back on track.

It was The_Harvest and what he was saying. Before we even got to that thread, he was going off on the other Christians for how they viewed homosexuals (and one of them has a gay daughter). He was bound to get it shut down with that kind of crap.

I don't think it was a coincidence that the thread was closed only shortly after a few atheists became involved. The_Harvest had been engaging in his shenanigans for quite some time.

Again, all it would have taken is a couple of PMs to a mod or admin. Once the thread became a giant mess (it essentially exploded after a few of us went in there and began attacking The_Harvest), it stands to reason that a moderator would not want to take the time to clean it up, and would instead opt for its closure.

 

[Doctor Evo]

He was a deeply unpleasant character, and I am glad he was banned.

100% agreed. Though I'm not entirely convinced that he should have been banned without warning, I certainly won't miss him.

This thread won't be closed, because nobody here is demented enough to harbour such malignant, medieval views.

It's come close to that point before, though, when we had more active religious participants. They tend to shy away from this thread now.

 

[DarkSovereignty]

Yeah, I remember peaceful warrior used to come in here and stir some sh**.

 

[Gr0oT]

It's come close to that point before, though, when we had more active religious participants. They tend to shy away from this thread now.

Guess the trick is to not engage such people within the thread.
Scary thing is guys like him aren't so few as they should be.

 

[Anubis]

I think them was all the same dude. I know peaceful warrior as that Movies(random numbers) guy.

 

[Destructus86]

Agreed.

He was pretty damn old school in his biblical views.

And that's the problem...that old school biblical view began soon after the founding of the Roman Catholic Church. Before that time it didn't really exist. You'll see paintings of souls inbetween battles of heaven and hell, both sides reaching towards them. While beautiful to look at, they don't reflect the scriptures. It's a sort of dualism created in that era. When hell is mention in the new testament it's a symbolic description of walking without God can lead to destruction and ultimately complete seperation from Him. When Jesus himself talks about hell, he's actually referring to Gehenna. A firey pit near Jeruslam where people came to dump basically their garbage and other things (perhaps even bodies?) to burn away. This was symbolic language Jesus used to describe the walk with or without God that would have been easy for the people of that time to understand.

 

[The End]

There's passages to support pretty much any position in the bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html

 

[Human Torch]

And that's the problem...that old school biblical view began soon after the founding of the Roman Catholic Church. Before that time it didn't really exist. You'll see paintings of souls inbetween battles of heaven and hell, both sides reaching towards them. While beautiful to look at, they don't reflect the scriptures. It's a sort of dualism created in that era. When hell is mention in the new testament it's a symbolic description of walking without God can lead to destruction and ultimately complete seperation from Him. When Jesus himself talks about hell, he's actually referring to Gehenna. A firey pit near Jeruslam where people came to dump basically their garbage and other things (perhaps even bodies?) to burn away. This was symbolic language Jesus used to describe the walk with or without God that would have been easy for the people of that time to understand.

You don't believe in an actual Hell? I've only heard atheists use that excuse.


I wonder if enough Christians descend on this thread if it'll get closed?(Somehow,I doubt it.)

 

[regwec]

I doubt it, because the remit of this thread is wide enough to permit on-topic debate while also allowing us to hand the Christians' asses to them.

 

[The End]

The difference is I think many atheists would welcome christians to the thread! We welcome the conversation!

What do you think hell is like, out of curiosity?

 

[The End]

Just came across this site and thought I'd share it. Quite detailed and well researched. Step by step logical debunking of christianity.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com/

 

[Doctor Evo]

You don't believe in an actual Hell? I've only heard atheists use that excuse.

How is the lack of a belief in hell an "excuse?" Also, aren't there branches of Christianity that officially do not recognize the existence of hell? Could have sworn that this was the case.

 

[KevanG]

I really don't understand the point of hell. You have an all mighty omnipotent being that has unconditional love for everyone no matter the crimes you've committed and he will welcome you home when you die and give you a big ol' hug when you show up.

But... If you don't admit that he's right and ask for forgiveness for every little thing you've ever done wrong you get to burn in eternal fire and torment until the end of time.

That just seems out of character to me for the NT god. The OT god, of course it's reasonable, he flat out murdered almost everyone in the flood, destroyed cities for being unruly and totally barbaric (not totally undeserved from what I've heard of them) and had a bet with the devil over Job and totally ruined his life for years in every which way just to see if he'd curse him out.

With the NT god though, it's always been more about love and acceptance rather than fire and brimstone. After all he sent down Jesus and his entire thing was love and acceptance as opposed to hatred and destruction.

The whole 'you'll go to hell if you disappoint him' makes him seem more like a petulant child than a loving creator.

Edit: I have no issues with anyone of any religion showing up and discussing things so everyone is welcome. It should liven up the thread a bit.

 

[regwec]

Yeah, it is very inconsistent. I think it reflects the fact that concepts of gods and the cosmos have always been malleable, and have changed to reflect different social contexts. We see that now, and we can see it then.

 

[MrsKent26]

You don't believe in an actual Hell? I've only heard atheists use that excuse.

I'm not sure I understand how not believing in hell is an excuse for anything. I don't believe in hell and think that's a rather reasonable view considering no one can prove its existence.

 

[Marvolo]

You don't believe in an actual Hell? I've only heard atheists use that excuse.


I wonder if enough Christians descend on this thread if it'll get closed?(Somehow,I doubt it.)

The Christian idea of hell isn't even found in the Hebrew OT. As for the New Testament:

The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek words Tartarus or Hades or the Hebrew word Gehenna.

These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized.

Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.

Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.

Tartaro (the verb "throw to Tartarus") occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, where it is parallel to the use of the noun form in 1 Enoch as the place of incarceration of 200 fallen angels. It mentions nothing about human souls being sent there in the afterlife.

The KJV disregards the different meanings and translates all three as Hell.

Personally I find the whole fire and brimstone thing over the top and silly.

"I love you. Believe me or you can burn forever." That's like sticking a gun to someone's head and asking them to love you. It's like the Christian God has our souls held hostage and Christians have this bizarre Stockholm syndrome going on with their deity.

Just came across this site and thought I'd share it. Quite detailed and well researched. Step by step logical debunking of christianity.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com/

This is an amazing resource.

 

[The End]

Other great online resources.

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Iron Chariots - A wiki that specifically addresses apologetics arguments. It lays out all the common arguments for the existence of god. Good tool for sharpening up your logic. Or even if you're a theist, its a great tool for seeing where the pit falls are in argumentation.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

The TalkOrigins Creationist Claims Index - Researched scientific rebuttals to hundreds of creationist claims. It's a great source particularly for fact checking. If you happen to find yourself in a discussion with a creationist and they make a scientific claim that sounds fishy, and they usually are, TalkOrigins is a great resource for checking if what they're claiming is even true.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

 

[The Endless]

I really don't understand the point of hell. You have an all mighty omnipotent being that has unconditional love for everyone no matter the crimes you've committed and he will welcome you home when you die and give you a big ol' hug when you show up.

But... If you don't admit that he's right and ask for forgiveness for every little thing you've ever done wrong you get to burn in eternal fire and torment until the end of time.

That just seems out of character to me for the NT god. The OT god, of course it's reasonable, he flat out murdered almost everyone in the flood, destroyed cities for being unruly and totally barbaric (not totally undeserved from what I've heard of them) and had a bet with the devil over Job and totally ruined his life for years in every which way just to see if he'd curse him out.

With the NT god though, it's always been more about love and acceptance rather than fire and brimstone. After all he sent down Jesus and his entire thing was love and acceptance as opposed to hatred and destruction.

The whole 'you'll go to hell if you disappoint him' makes him seem more like a petulant child than a loving creator.

Edit: I have no issues with anyone of any religion showing up and discussing things so everyone is welcome. It should liven up the thread a bit.

Because it's all a fictional way of scaring people into being controlled.

They weren't scared of prison or the dungeons. So what's worse? You be a bad person and you will spend the rest of eternity in a fiery pit of doom and misery!

Scare tactics, that's all it is.

 

[mkilban2]

I would never condemn or judge someone for believing something other than what I believe. I grew up catholic, church every Sunday, Catholic school K-12 and all that jazz. I don't practice within the church anymore but the things I've leaned have always stuck with me. I honestly don't know of there's a God out there or a higher power of some kind out there. That's something that's impossible to know. I've come to learn to take the Bible and the writings inside as lessons or guidelines to live your life by, not to he taken as literal or historical truths.

I personally lean towards a more scientific view of life I suppose, no afterlife or spirits or higher spirit. But that doesn't mean I can't take the things I learned and grew up with in the Church in my everyday life and outlook. "Heaven" is what you make of it here on Earth in our short times here, live a happy life and try to make the lives of those around you better as well.

I know the homosexuality thing got a bit out of hand in the Jesus thread, I've never seen a problem with it myself. Love is love. I'd be surprised if anyone didn't personally know a gay person either in their family or circle or friends or workplace etc.. To me, the way they were born is no big deal to me.

Idk, I've never posted here but after reading these religion threads for the past hour or so I figured I'd pipe in somewhere. Anyone is free to live their lives as they please whether that be staying close to the words in the Bible or having no spiritual/religious beliefs at all (I'm somewhere in the middle I guess haha). I like you all the same!

In 10-15 years I truly hope all these homosexual non acceptance things will go away, the groundwork has been laid and we're seeing it in different states and other places like the world of Sports as well.

I've never been one for a strong opinion on things like politics or religion since it always ends in a stalemate, no two people feel the same way on everything so I tend to believe what I believe an support what I support and allow others to do the same without my two cents toward their situations. I have my stances on gays, abortion, guns, race, religion, whatever and if you don't feel the same way I think you're wrong (hehe) but i won't fight you.

Unless you make fun of my city or my sports teams, then we will be fighting.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Religion and Philosophy are the poetry of human life and Science and Rationality are the prose.

Or as Joni Mitchell would say... We are stardust. We are golden. We are billion year old carbon. And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.

 

[regwec]

I think monotheism is the poetry of William Mcgonagall, within that analogy.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think monotheism is the poetry of William Mcgonagall, within that analogy.

regwec laying the bad poetry slam down, THIS early in the morning.

 

[Marvolo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Religion and Philosophy are the poetry of human life and Science and Rationality are the prose.

Or as Joni Mitchell would say... We are stardust. We are golden. We are billion year old carbon. And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.

That is a wonderful way of viewing it. Finding the balance between the two is no easy task. I've been trying for years and still haven't achieved it.

Other great online resources.

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Iron Chariots - A wiki that specifically addresses apologetics arguments. It lays out all the common arguments for the existence of god. Good tool for sharpening up your logic. Or even if you're a theist, its a great tool for seeing where the pit falls are in argumentation.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

The TalkOrigins Creationist Claims Index - Researched scientific rebuttals to hundreds of creationist claims. It's a great source particularly for fact checking. If you happen to find yourself in a discussion with a creationist and they make a scientific claim that sounds fishy, and they usually are, TalkOrigins is a great resource for checking if what they're claiming is even true.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

Thank you very much for these links!