The Avengers (2012) vs Justice League (2017)

[ludovica]

Complexity in a sense of combination of a concept, character attributes or archetype, iconography and history. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman became icons not just because.

Wonder Woman is iconic mostly for being the longest published female hero, that's no small feat of course.

 

[FunkMiller]

Complexity in a sense of combination of a concept, character attributes or archetype, iconography and history. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman became icons not just because.

I’ve always felt that all superheroes ever created exist on a sliding scale between Superman and Batman. They are the foundations from which all others stem. And when the right film-makers make movies about them, they are better than any others.

 

[TalismanRing]

Complexity in a sense of combination of a concept, character attributes or archetype, iconography and history. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman became icons not just because.

No, complexity is about character not iconography, history or even power sets. The latter may serve to make a character more popular but not more complex.

Jessica Jones may be a relatively new, relatively unknown street level hero and she may only be on Netflix but shes a far more complex character in her Netflix incarnation than a multitude of more popular heroes.

There is no richer (not monetarily) or more complex SH character on screen than Tony Stark played by RDJ. Which in turn has now made him iconic.

The MCU has made icons of many of their characters and they've done it by making them recognizable multi faceted beings instead of leaning on the crutch of previous popularity.

 

[OutOfBoose]

No, complexity is about character not iconography, history or even power sets. The latter may serve to make a character more popular but not more complex.

Jessica Jones may be a relatively new, relatively unknown street level hero and she may only be on Netflix but shes a far more complex character in her Netflix incarnation than a multitude of more popular heroes.

There is no richer (not monetarily) or more complex SH character on screen than Tony Stark played by RDJ. Which in turn has now made him iconic.

The MCU has made icons of many of their characters and they've done it by making them recognizable multi faceted beings instead of leaning on the crutch of previous popularity.

Then it's poor wording on my side. You probably can create a good story even around Wanda Maximoff. But I'll take a good Batman film over good Iron Man film any day. Batman is that much more interesting to me because of the combination of his character, his looks, his abilities, his stories.

 

[FunkMiller]

Then it's poor wording on my side. You probably can create a good story even around Wanda Maximoff. But I'll take a good Batman film over good Iron Man film any day. Batman is that much more interesting to me because of the combination of his character, his looks, his abilities, his stories.

Also, Stark is just a reflection of Bruce Wayne. I’d rather watch a story about the original, rather than the facsimile.

Again, the reason why DC would be ruling the roost were it not for the fact it’s been handled by Snyder and the rest of the cretin brigade, is that it is the company with all the best characters. Marvel’s are mere reflections, by and large.

...I will now sit back and put on my helmet while the Marvel folks explode into collective apoplexy.

 

[TalismanRing]

Also, Stark is just a reflection of Bruce Wayne. I’d rather watch a story about the original, rather than the facsimile.

Again, the reason why DC would be ruling the roost were it not for the fact it’s been handled by Snyder and the rest of the cretin brigade, is that it is the company with all the best characters. Marvel’s are mere reflections, by and large.

...I will now sit back and put on my helmet while the Marvel folks explode into collective apoplexy.

Nah, such misguided and egregiously erroneous statements engender more bemused chuckles than apoplexy.

 

[Mjölnir]

Also, Stark is just a reflection of Bruce Wayne. I’d rather watch a story about the original, rather than the facsimile.

Again, the reason why DC would be ruling the roost were it not for the fact it’s been handled by Snyder and the rest of the cretin brigade, is that it is the company with all the best characters. Marvel’s are mere reflections, by and large.

...I will now sit back and put on my helmet while the Marvel folks explode into collective apoplexy.

It's not so much about being first as being good. That goes on extra display since the versions of the characters that most people love today don't tend to be the first ones that came out, it's mainly reimagined versions that came later on.

Being first in the short term (meaning recent years) can have more impact though, like how The Avengers came out before Justice League. That will have far more of an effect than Justice League being created before The Avengers in the comics. Both because so few remember that, and because "no one" reads comics.

I'm just going to ignore the silly fanboy warish thing at the end of your post. We don't need that, even when it's unsuccessful attempts.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm just going to ignore the silly fanboy warish thing at the end of your post. We don't need that, even when it's unsuccessful attempts.

Apologies. I spend most of my time on here ripping the disaster area that is the DCEU to shreds, so I figured I could get away with a little good natured ribbing of my esteemed Marvel colleagues. No offence intended.

 

[FunkMiller]

Nah, such misguided and egregiously erroneous statements engender more bemused chuckles than apoplexy.

Well, you’re sat in a 5 billion dollar franchise, so the right to chuckle is yours.

I stand by my statement though t:

 

[Mjölnir]

Apologies. I spend most of my time on here ripping the disaster area that is the DCEU to shreds, so I figured I could get away with a little good natured ribbing of my esteemed Marvel colleagues. No offence intended.

No worries, and I guess I also took it as more seriously intended due to that the fanboy war exists for real with some. Intent is what ultimately matters so I judged it wrong.

 

[FunkMiller]

No worries, and I guess I also took it as more seriously intended due to that the fanboy war exists for real with some. Intent is what ultimately matters so I judged it wrong.

Heh. Right now there is no fanboy war. I’m big enough, old enough, and ugly enough to know that Marvel has wiped the floor with DC for the past five years - and deservedly so.

As with all things, this will change again one day.... but not while us DC fans have to put up with the brain trust currently engaged in wrecking all the goodwill Nolan built up.

 

[Zarex]

Also, Stark is just a reflection of Bruce Wayne. I’d rather watch a story about the original, rather than the facsimile.

Sure, though Bruce is a facade and Tony is that guy. So, completely different.

Again, the reason why DC would be ruling the roost were it not for the fact it’s been handled by Snyder and the rest of the cretin brigade, is that it is the company with all the best characters. Marvel’s are mere reflections, by and large.

I love, love, love the DC characters. But there's a reason they were "Marvelized" over the years, with the biggest change occurring post COIE. The original DC characters shared a standard super-hero persona while the Marvel characters were conceived as distinct individuals.

.I will now sit back and put on my helmet while the Marvel folks explode into collective apoplexy.

Howsabout some advice? Read some of the early comics from both publishers.

 

[mclay18]

Neither Avengers nor Justice League have particularly good cinematography.

I wish Bill Pope and Wally Pfister DP'd the films. Pope's work on SM-2 and SM-3 was stunning, with beautiful saturation and framing. Pfister's was less showy but great lighting and contrast.

 

[jmc]

Justice League was never going to be able to replicate the success of The Avengers. Even if the movie turned out good the reality is WB blew their ace with BvS when Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman appeared on screen. That was their equivalent of The Avengers pan around shot. You only get to do that once.

 

[Samuron]

Also, Stark is just a reflection of Bruce Wayne. I’d rather watch a story about the original, rather than the facsimile.

Again, the reason why DC would be ruling the roost were it not for the fact it’s been handled by Snyder and the rest of the cretin brigade, is that it is the company with all the best characters. Marvel’s are mere reflections, by and large.

...I will now sit back and put on my helmet while the Marvel folks explode into collective apoplexy.

No such reaction from me, but I'm surprised to to learn that you have such a superficial understanding of the characters.

The DC pantheon is not the best, IMO, merely the older models,created in an era where the more subtle aspects of character were unnecessary, They were pure, crystalline, and figuratively two-dimensional as well as literally so.

Marvel changed that by making them people first, and heroes second, and so they are more naturally relatable.

 

[ludovica]

Marvel changed that by making them people first, and heroes second, and so they are more naturally relatable.

Some underestimate this aspect.

 

[ludovica]

Justice League was never going to be able to replicate the success of The Avengers. Even if the movie turned out good the reality is WB blew their ace with BvS when Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman appeared on screen. That was their equivalent of The Avengers pan around shot. You only get to do that once.

Sadly.
That's why a major overhaul of the DCFU universe is needed.
They should work towards a second shot at that awe factor, it may not be the same thing but we haven't yet gotten the same iconic moment for the DC characters.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I wish Bill Pope and Wally Pfister DP'd the films. Pope's work on SM-2 and SM-3 was stunning, with beautiful saturation and framing. Pfister's was less showy but great lighting and contrast.

Bill Pope would have probably worked on Ant-Man if Edgar Wright directed it since they always work together, unfortunately it didn't happen. Marvel should have improved that aspect of their movies by now, it really shouldn't be that hard.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

The Avengers. To say the least. The setup, the lead in, the dialogue are better through and through. Each act functions so much more powerfully in TA than in JL.

Loki is so much more enjoyable, charismatic, cunning and threatening as a villain than Steppenwolf.

The saddest part is even 5.5 years later and a higher budget the CGI in Avengers was better.

 

[Iceman]

I thought moustache removal tech would be quite advanced in 2017.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I think if they had more time, they'd be able to do it properly.

 

[FunkMiller]

I think if they had more time, they'd be able to do it properly.

Drop JL to next summer and you get a far better movie.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Maybe they didn't want to spend more time and money on it. Just be done with it and move on.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Maybe they didn't want to spend more time and money on it. Just be done with it and move on.

That's the vibe I got on it. Joss is the type of guy who would want to see it fixed for the fans' sake. He probably worked for a pretty low cost to improve what was destined to be a steaming pile.

And there's still a possibility they profit... -_- and blade runner bombed. what a messed up world we live in.

 

[FunkMiller]

No such reaction from me, but I'm surprised to to learn that you have such a superficial understanding of the characters.

The DC pantheon is not the best, IMO, merely the older models,created in an era where the more subtle aspects of character were unnecessary, They were pure, crystalline, and figuratively two-dimensional as well as literally so.

Marvel changed that by making them people first, and heroes second, and so they are more naturally relatable.

Granted, I've made a gross over-simplification in my comment, I'll cheerfully concede that, but it remains true that DC created the archetype, and Marvel refined / cribbed from it. But the foundation, and for me the more fascinating characterisations, sit with DC. More iconic, more archetypal, more culturally pervasive over a long period.

Marvel do relatable 'human' better than DC though. Your mileage may vary as to whether that's what you want from your superhero characters. Personally, I think the only properly relatable superheroes are the ones who are human, rather than super-powered fantasy wish fulfilment figures - and we all know who the best example of that is.