The Batman General News & Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Gothamsknight]

It's actually surprising how Robert has absolutely nothing lined up. He's completely free for the foreseeable future, so that increases the chances he'll appear in all the spin-offs.

Yup. I actually wonder if that's intentionally because of Batman or what

 

[CondimentKing]

The half-hour Chinese interview is really great. I'd recommend everyone here give it a watch. Lots of cool little details. Reeves seems like a genuinely sweet man.

 

[DKDetective]

Or maybe it's not so much about redeeming the family legacy, but just using the wealth that was acquired via corruption to help the city his family helped to destroy. It could also be a matter of "Thomas Wayne may not have been the man you admired to be, but you could become that man", which would be an interesting narrative curveball, becoming the ideal he wanted his parents to be.

What you said above could very well be the case. What Reeves said in that it, "Touches Bruce's origins and shakes him to his core" sounds pretty extreme. It makes me think they're going with the Telltale version. Maybe Bruce's answer is that he doesn't need his parents deaths to be a Batman or a good Wayne and that revelation can snap him out of it. I think that can be really cool. Especially if it helps him save his soul. In my book, that can still make him Batman. Because his humanity is one of the three triangle points for what makes Batman for me, so if he can go through that to improve his humanity, that would stay true to that. But I understand if you may still not like that idea in principle.

The problem I have with the Telltale version or another more extreme take, is if Thomas and Martha are so corrupt and bad, how did Bruce become so moral or driven to do good? Where would he get the drive to want to do good or want to be a better person than his parents. People like that do not raise selfless kids who want to use their money for good (Case in point, the moral bankruptcy of all of Donny Boy's offspring.)

 

[Jekecy]

I'm not concerned about this at all. If we learn that Thomas Wayne was involved in some kind of shady business/mob dealing or if he was involved in some kind of conspiracy/secret/cover-up, it may have still been for a very good reason or ultimately for the greater good -- whether Riddler realizes that or not. Helping or dealing with the mob or corrupt politicians automatically sounds "bad" on its surface, but things are not always so black and white. Maybe whatever he did was to guarantee that some innocent person or someone's family members would be be given protection or spared from violence. We'll see.

Wasn't it TLH which brought up how Falcone (or someone in his family) was saved by Thomas in an emergency secret surgery?

If that life saving procedure allowed Falcone to continue his criminal activities, one of which Riddler is particularly invested in, it would be a way to connect everyone together from a past event.

 

[Invader Joker]

The problem I have with the Telltale version or another more extreme take, is if Thomas and Martha are so corrupt and bad, how did Bruce become so moral or driven to do good? Where would he get the drive to want to do good or want to be a better person than his parents. People like that do not raise selfless kids who want to use their money for good (Case in point, the moral bankruptcy of all of Donny Boy's offspring.)

Alfred. Also they could've presented the image to Bruce that they were good people.

 

[DKDetective]

Wasn't it TLH which brought up how Falcone (or someone in his family) was saved by Thomas in an emergency secret surgery?

If that life saving procedure allowed Falcone to continue his criminal activities, one of which Riddler is particularly invested in, it would be a way to connect everyone together from a past event.

Yeah, I mentioned that possible influence as well.

Alfred. Also they could've presented the image to Bruce that they were good people.

But if Alfred was so good and upstanding, why would he work for the evil and corrupt Waynes?

Honestly, I don't buy evil, corrupt Waynes presenting some different face to their son in their private interactions. That is when the mask of decency usually slips. Parents teach by example. Kids pick up their worldview and perspective subconsciously.

 

[CondimentKing]

Being corrupt doesn't mean you're evil. They could be good parents and be shady in the business world at the same time. Criminals aren't just automatically trash people with no good values. I'm sure they were still good parents to Bruce. People prioritize their family over other people, there's no way they didn't raise Bruce to the best of their ability, even if they were involved in dirty work on the side. Also, maybe Martha was super pure and she raised Bruce more than Thomas. Until we see the movie these are non-issues imo, although I understand the hesitation. I think it works better thematically for the character, personally

 

[Rod]

Damn...

Guess "Fear is a tool", indeed...

 

[chintai80]

The half-hour Chinese interview is really great. I'd recommend everyone here give it a watch. Lots of cool little details. Reeves seems like a genuinely sweet man.

oh yea this was pretty good.
reeves and cast really put lot of love in this film, you can tell from their answers.
cool to see how different rob and zoe's approach to their characters as well.
rob researched and read as many batman comics he can get his hands on.
whereas zoe only focused on her character as written in the script.

also, lu chuan, the person who's asking them questions is a famous director in china too.
they didn't just grab some random dood. lol

 

[DKDetective]

Being corrupt doesn't mean you're evil. They could be good parents and be shady in the business world at the same time. Criminals aren't just automatically trash people with no good values. I'm sure they were still good parents to Bruce. People prioritize their family over other people, there's no way they didn't raise Bruce to the best of their ability, even if they were involved in dirty work on the side. Also, maybe Martha was super pure and she raised Bruce more than Thomas.

That's what I am saying. It makes more sense if it is a mixed legacy, good with bad. Invader and others are trying to argue that the Waynes can be plain-out bad people and that the character and the origin still works.

The idea of a pure Martha with a corrupt Thomas doesn't work for me. She's an accessory after the fact in that case, like Carmela Soprano, if she is living and profiting from her husband's ill-gotten gains.

 

[Invader Joker]

Here's my theory:

Bruce is the world's greatest detective in this version, also a genius engineer, so he must be a very well studied man, and there are plenty of research and studies that say that solving inequalities is the best way to get rid of crime, but...

The reason Bruce Wayne is not bothering with the whole philanthropy thing in this version is because he grew up with the idea that his parents were these really idealized philanthropists and public figures that did everything they could for Gotham when they were alive yet the city remained filled with crime and inequality to the point that they were gunned down in an alleyway in such a brutal way which makes Bruce extremely cynical towards the whole idea of even attempting it, thinking that Gotham is the exception to the rule and the soft approach doesn't work, he has to fight fire with fire.

He's so damaged emotionally and so biased it completely ripples his perspective on what'd actually work to change that city.

When he finds out his parents were actually corrupt that cripples him emotionally in two ways: first, obviously he realizes that the people that he's been idealizing are horrible, but secondly he'd realize that this whole time his cynical idea was wrong, nobody had ever really tried to help Gotham in that way and he has to step up because his entire premise and biases are broken down.

There's the Bella Real girl that's running for Mayor, so in regards to the meetings that Alfred wants Bruce to take that BluRayAngel mentioned in his test screening leaks, it could be that he wanted him to meet with her, but at the beginning of the movie he's just very cynical about it and essentially in a "She won't change a thing, why bother? These animals won't change". And then his tune changes by the end of the movie.

 

[BatLobster]

Part of me was a bit disappointed that we didn't get more detective vibes like the first trailer, but the more I think about the new trailer the more glad I am that they didn't show any of that because almost nothing from Riddler's plot was spoiled, which is a rarity for second trailers nowadays. Compare this to the main BvS trailer that completely ruined the Wonder Woman and Doomsday reveals. Night and day. With these scenes in context with the voiceover - I'm positive Reeves will deliver on the detective angle.

I think noir/mystery films are very hard to market, because you really don't want to give too much away. I think Blade Runner 2049 had this problem. You had no idea what the movie is about from the trailers.

I think this trailer was more meant to show that this is still going to be a Batman movie with all the punching, leaping off buildings, car chases etc. that we've come to expect. The marketing is doing a great job so far.

Watched the 27-minute interview with Reeves, Pattinson and Kravitz.

Reeves is one of the most jovial and vivacious directors I've ever watched in an interview. Infectious energy.

He reminds me of his buddy J.J. in that regard. Both definitely have the gift of gab.

 

[Invader Joker]

Yeah, I mentioned that possible influence as well.


But if Alfred was so good and upstanding, why would he work for the evil and corrupt Waynes?

Honestly, I don't buy evil, corrupt Waynes presenting some different face to their son in their private interactions. That is when the mask of decency usually slips. Parents teach by example. Kids pick up their worldview and perspective subconsciously.

That's not really true. There's this ex-mobster guy on youtube of all places, Michael Franzese, that talked about how he had no idea that his father was a mobster until he was 18 years old. They could absolutely be presenting a complete facade to their son, especially since that'd be a 0-8 year old Bruce we're talking about here. And there's always the classic case of the serial killer or rapist with sons that had zero idea their parent was into any of that.

Also there are plenty of reasons as to why Alfred could've worked for the Waynes in that case. Maybe he just took care of the manor and had no idea they were shady, maybe he owed something to Thomas, maybe he didn't know at first but became really close to Bruce by essentially babysitting him that he decided to stay because of him, maybe he was a war veteran that had nowhere else to go to, or he had debts to pay and the only way to pay them was with the money he was gaining as a butler.

 

[chintai80]

That's not really true. There's this ex-mobster guy on youtube of all places, Michael Franzese, that talked about how he had no idea that his father was a mobster until he was 18 years old. They could absolutely be presenting a complete facade to their son, especially since that'd be a 0-8 year old Bruce we're talking about here. And there's always the classic case of the serial killer or rapist with sons that had zero idea their parent was into any of that.

Also there are plenty of reasons as to why Alfred could've worked for the Waynes in that case. Maybe he just took care of the manor and had no idea they were shady, maybe he owed something to Thomas, maybe he didn't know at first but became really close to Bruce by essentially babysitting him that he decided to stay because of him, maybe he was a war veteran that had nowhere else to go to, or he had debts to pay and the only way to pay them was with the money he was gaining as a butler.

on a side note, i like watching some of those michael franzese interviews.
it's fascinating. pretty crazy how he turned his life around.
his dad met al capone before too, thats how far back he goes.

 

[The Shape]

The problem I have with the Telltale version or another more extreme take, is if Thomas and Martha are so corrupt and bad, how did Bruce become so moral or driven to do good? Where would he get the drive to want to do good or want to be a better person than his parents. People like that do not raise selfless kids who want to use their money for good (Case in point, the moral bankruptcy of all of Donny Boy's offspring.)

Because like in real life, it's entirely possible to be a great, loving, devoted parent in terms of raising your child to be the best possible version of himself, even if you have done or are doing other "bad things" at some point in life. A person can still be a good parent even if he is an ******* at work or to his employees. Even a hardened criminal or murder can still be a good parent and member of the community (see BTK) while compartmentalizing or keeping that part of himself hidden from his family or other people.

This is obviously not always the case with all "bad people" in reality, but it still happens all the time and is not unrealistic in any way. The flip side of this is that seemingly great, charitable people who are loved and respected by almost everyone around them in life can also be terrible parents behind closed doors who neglect and abuse their children.

We all want our children to be better than ourselves, to have a life that is as good or better than our own, and to become the best and most well-rounded possible version of themselves. If Thomas Wayne was involved in something shady relating to business, politics, or the mob for whatever reason, it doesn't mean that any of that would have affected how he felt about his family and likely would not have changed how he treated them. As far as Bruce may have known growing up, his father appeared completely upstanding citizen and a good man. And like I indicated before, being involved in something criminal or corrupt in the case of Thomas Wayne wouldn't automatically mean that he was that this totally amoral ******* who abused his family, and he may have even had a good reason for being involved in this potential conspiracy when all is said and done.

 

[OutOfBoose]

He also has a mother, who could well have been totally innocent.

No, don't bring his mother into this. You know what it does to Bruce.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Yesss, honestly my favourite part. I love how extra he is lol

 

[Doctor Jones]

The problem I have with the Telltale version or another more extreme take, is if Thomas and Martha are so corrupt and bad, how did Bruce become so moral or driven to do good? Where would he get the drive to want to do good or want to be a better person than his parents. People like that do not raise selfless kids who want to use their money for good (Case in point, the moral bankruptcy of all of Donny Boy's offspring.)

Maybe it'll be complicated. Maybe they were corrupt but good parents? That's a contradiction that could be interesting and fits into how Kravitz said this world explores "the grey." Or maybe Bruce was just young enough to remember them a certain way, and the trauma of their murder reaffirms that, but as an adult, Bruce discovers things he never knew. Maybe they were crappy parents to him. Noir deals with things you thought were true at the time but given new context, they turn out completely differently. It's also possible for kids to be raised by bad parents who don't turn out like them.

But broadly, is it something where you still disagree with the philosophy of the choice? I can see where this could be a cynically lazy creative choice. I see your point in taking things too far from the material because it will screw with the origins and core of the creation of the character. It's valid. I just disagree in that I don't think it does necessarily. My mind could be changed though.

Would you compare this to making Uncle Ben alive or something?

EDIT: I just saw your above posts so sorry if this seems redundant.

 

[CondimentKing]

That's what I am saying. It makes more sense if it is a mixed legacy, good with bad. Invader and others are trying to argue that the Waynes can be plain-out bad people and that the character and the origin still works.

The idea of a pure Martha with a corrupt Thomas doesn't work for me. She's an accessory after the fact in that case, like Carmela Soprano, if she is living and profiting from her husband's ill-gotten gains.

Ah, I see. Yeah, I get that. I think it's likely it's pretty mixed and grey like that. Reeves seems to much more interested in that grey zone than straight up black and white - it's just going to challenge Batman's b&w view. I hear ya

And @OutOfBoose lol

 

[J.Drangal]

Is it necessary to be so dramatic while studying evidence? Half-naked, spray painting stuff on the floor...

Have you never spent a sleepless night before a deadline, in your underwear looking at all your documents on the floor to see the big picture more clearly?

Well, I envy you.

One thing that concerns me from the trailer is this shot:

View attachment 49966

specifically, the “sins of my father?” notation.
I have seen Batman stories where Thomas Wayne was corrupt (specifically the Deadshot-centric Batman: Sins of the Father) and they have never set well with me. Thomas needs to be upright, or Bruce’s mission seems completely pointless to me.

Like said above, it doesn't have to necessarily means that the Wayne were bad people. It could be a case of not having the choice but to use discutable methods in some area to try to do something better somewhere else. Being at the same time victims and actors of a larger rotten system, something like that. I understand though how it can be important for some to have Batman starting his mission by wanting to avenge good people but...

To me, there's something very compelling about having a young Batman, who hasn't properly dealt with his trauma, seeing his entire world shattered by a revelation about his family. It makes for a challenging story where the very core of the character is carrying the whole thing.
Plus, that deconstruction doesn't have to just stay a sterile exercise. It naturally forces the character to overcome the simple motive of revenge, embrace values such as forgiveness, and so turn his crusade into something a little less self-serving. It would actually put him on a more heroic path quite nicely. And, all in all, leads him to be the classic Batman (in the noble sense).

EDIT: Sorry I'm late to the party, everything in my post have been more or less said in the last page.

 

[CondimentKing]

Have you never spent a sleepless night before a deadline, in your underwear looking at all your documents on the floor to see the big picture more clearly?

Well, I envy you.

haha seems like Batman's even more relatable than thought previously. nothing like those late-night paper writing and exam studying sessions to get the detective juices going

 

[DKDetective]

Maybe it'll be complicated. Maybe they were corrupt but good parents? That's a contradiction that could be interesting and fits into how Kravitz said this world explores "the grey." Or maybe Bruce was just young enough to remember them a certain way, and the trauma of their murder reaffirms that, but as an adult, Bruce discovers things he never knew. Maybe they were crappy parents to him. Noir deals with things you thought were true at the time but given new context, they turn out completely differently. It's also possible for kids to be raised by bad parents who don't turn out like them.

But broadly, is it something where you still disagree with the philosophy of the choice? I can see where this could be a cynically lazy creative choice. I see your point in taking things too far from the material because it will screw with the origins and core of the creation of the character. It's valid. I just disagree in that I don't think it does necessarily. My mind could be changed though.

Would you compare this to making Uncle Ben alive or something?

EDIT: I just saw your above posts so sorry if this seems redundant.

I think it just bugs me because I think two of the origin nuances I've always liked about the character is Thomas being a surgeon and his Hippocratic Oath informing Bruce's refusal to take a life and the Waynes being Old Money Philantropists who believe in giving back basically being the foundation of Bruce's crusade to clean up "his City" and take the crime and corruption in hand as Batman. I especially like the latter point because I think it is an effective critique of late stage capitalism that has particular relevance to a lot of our current socio-economic issues. The periods of the greatest bursts of American progressivism and material improvements in the lives of everyday Americans (the Progressive and New Deal Era), you see a lot of activity on the part of the scions of Old Money families giving back and doing their part to spread prosperity among the other classes (eg. the Roosevelts, Rockefellers, Carnegie, etc.) (granted, there is more nuance to it).

But you don't see that as much now, the current superrich like Trump, Bezos, and Musk are all in it for personal self-grandisement. I like the idea that Bruce and the Waynes in general offer a heroic counterpoint to that, a reflection to a time when at least notionally the upper classes believed they had obligations of charity and betterment to those less fortunate.

I get that it makes sense to mix it up a little as Nolan nailed these points with his portrayal of Thomas Wayne, but I think you can add grey and nuance to it without fundamentally changing the character. For instance, Nolan portrays Thomas's non-involvement in the family business to instead be a surgeon as noble. What if Reeves portrays that decision as while not actively corrupt, but instead irresponsible. That by leaving Wayne Enterprises in the hands of corrupt executives, the company's more wages, lack of employee benefits, shoddy products, etc. caused more harm to the working classes than any personal live-saving that Thomas could do as a doctor. That to me is more interesting...

 

[DeadlyWest]

Btw am I the only one sitting here and waiting for someone to upload the Main Trailer version of Something in the Way with the new rendition of the Giacchino score?

 

[Rod]

If I had to guess, I think either it'll be someone trying to tarnish Waynes' name, similar to how Hush/Hurt/CoO did in comics - or something a bit more "macro", like exploitative ways the family built it's riches in the past up to Thomas.

I remember some reports from the set months ago saying this muscle batmobile was originally a cherished favorite among Thomas collection of classics, that Bruce would modify (if not mistaken, sources further said it was going to be explained first time he met Martha was in this car or something like that). Some type of emotional connection/bonding to his parents.

Now, back then this went kinda unnoticed. Not much weight was put into it and not much was discussed.

But now, seeing the BTS in fandome, there's a shot of Bruce indeed visiting a garage full of classic cars that made me instantly remember these rumours:


So I take if this is the case and they are going through these lengths to show Bruce's bonding with his parents, in a way even taking their memory to the crime fighting, they prolly will not be outright "evil" per se or irredeemably corrupt - some sort of twist going on.

 

[Drizzle]

Damn...

Guess "Fear is a tool", indeed...