The Batman General News & Discussion Thread - Part 2

[DKDetective]

I hope it's more nuanced than that. My main idea has always been that Thomas partnered up with Falcone in exchange for highly increased funding to his hospital so he could viably make a program for the poor and homeless so they don't have to pay healthcare at his hospital. Maybe even have in lore that this happened during a severe epidemic through the city (would certainly be quite topical). In exchange, Falcone is/was allowed to use the hospital that Thomas owned for his own nefarious deeds like making Drops or something else that could tie him to Riddler in some way.

That way, rather than just "he bad", it's more complex. Thomas is still a good person, just in a lose-lose situation and he realistically made the best choice he could make. It'd still shake Bruce, as he has this highly idealistic view of Thomas as this paragon of morality. So having it be made apparent that Thomas, as good as he was, was still a highly flawed human being could be quite interesting

Yeah, I was going to say that something more grey along those lines would also be great. I can totally get behind Thomas making deals with the devil and making moral compromises to accomplish what he thinks in the greater good. I just really don't want something as corrupt and irredeemable as how they approached it in Sins of the Father/Telltale.

Bruce is the kind of a guy who sees things as black and white. I don't buy the idea of Bruce still loving and grieving his parents if they were truly corrupt and immoral. You don't go out and beat up criminals dressed up as a Bat if you are truly in touch with bad people still possibly being good parents, having loved ones.

There is also the progression that we know Reeves in making of Bruce basically having no interest in being Bruce and wanting to only be Batman and learning to see value in Bruce Wayne that seems to be telegraphed in this take. That progression makes less sense if Bruce learns that the Wayne legacy is horrible and corrupt during the film. I think a better lesson for Bruce and more in line with the rest of what we are speculating about the film is that the ends don't always justify the means. Seeing how such compromises undermined his father's legacy would be a good way to have Bruce learn to be less obsessive and single-minded.

 

[Snow Queen]

This. It divorces Bruce’s mission from any self serving revenge and shows he has a motive and identity beyond his trauma.

He also has a mother, who could well have been totally innocent.

He has a mom? Oh, man, I can never remember her name. What was it again?

 

[chintai80]

He needs to see more of Rob's movies. Even if it's just one film, like The Lighthouse, or something. Do people realize these are actors? actors, being the key word here.

lighthouse was great. basically an acting showcase for dafoe and pattinson with some bomb-ass cinematography!

when i mention stuff like lighthouse, some friends be like "i can't stand black and white movies!"

well, i can't stand your willful ignorance!

 

[Doctor Jones]

Same. It is the one thing about this take that worries me. I don't like the idea of Bruce becoming Batman to avenge the death of bad people as I agree it undermines the whole mission. Given the clear influence of Year One and The Long Halloween on Reeves and the story, I'm hoping that it is more something along the lines of Bruce doubting the actions of his father in saving the life of a younger Carmine Falcone, which indirectly resulted in so much harm to Gotham. Doesn't Carmine try and suggest to Bruce that he and Thomas were buddy-buddy in that story as a result of that? I seem to recall Bruce wrestling with the implications Thomas' actions.

I understand that point, but that could be the point in this context though. An enraged Bruce who thinks he's doing it for his parents because he thought one way about them but finds out his father was corrupt to begin with can help his arc to be a better Wayne (to help save his Bruce self) can be interesting. I'm not saying you can still personally like it, but objectively, in a vacuum, that's at least interesting and it can still have merit. Is it as accurate as the traditional comic book Batman? Not exactly, but I don't mind them straying from some of the dogma as long as it's executed well. I don't personally agree with Nolan retiring Bruce as Batman after a year, but I love it because it was executed well and told a powerful story as per the filmmaker's vision.

Same with Timm's interpretation as Batman being the true face and Bruce being the mask. I don't agree with that, but that doesn't mean you can't mine interesting stories from that.

 

[WatchProtect]

On the whole "Bad parents" thing I always feel like Thomas is the parent Who gets all the attention, if he is corrupt I want them to show Martha as the saving grace.

 

[Marvel united]

Bruce and Riddler look to be fairly distinct, at least from the movie/television iterations. Those are the two main characters, so that's something.

The world building should count a significant amount as Gotham is practically a character itself. And it's the first time I felt like I was in Gotham since B89.

The Riddler looks very different indeed, and I'm excited to see where Reeves goes with it.

But Batman himself is probably my biggest gripe. It looks like a remix of Bale's take with shades of Affleck. Young, reckless, out of control and full of rage, violent. It's a far cry from the quiet but intense detective from the teaser.

Even the fighting reminds me of the Nolan films. I was really hoping that Reeves would take advantage of Pattinson's nimble frame and make Batman more of a stealth/speed fighter, rather than another bruiser. Also really not a fan of Batman being bulletproof

 

[The Shape]

View attachment 49966

specifically, the “sins of my father?” notation.
I have seen Batman stories where Thomas Wayne was corrupt (specifically the Deadshot-centric Batman: Sins of the Father) and they have never set well with me. Thomas needs to be upright, or Bruce’s mission seems completely pointless to me.

I'm not concerned about this at all. If we learn that Thomas Wayne was involved in some kind of shady business/mob dealing or if he was involved in some kind of conspiracy/secret/cover-up, it may have still been for a very good reason or ultimately for the greater good -- whether Riddler realizes that or not. Helping or dealing with the mob or corrupt politicians automatically sounds "bad" on its surface, but things are not always so black and white. Maybe whatever he did was to guarantee that some innocent person or someone's family members would be be given protection or spared from violence. We'll see.

Alternatively, even if it turns out that Thomas Wayne actually WAS corrupt or not as good of a dude as we would normally think, that does not bother me. I appreciate different takes on the mythos and have no problem with that concept. It was done well in the Batman Telltale games and can be done well here, too.

Finding this out would definitely be devastating to Bruce at first, but what will matter is that up until the events of this movie, Bruce still grew up and began his crusade thinking that his father was a great man and a shining example for him. Bruce was still raised to be a good man and clearly has a strong moral center in terms of knowing what is right and wrong and caring about protecting innocent people (despite maybe being a little reckless and violent at first).

And even if it does turn out Thomas Wayne was NOT really a great man like Bruce thought he was, that still doesn't mean he and his wife deserved to be gunned down in cold blood in front of him. It will still have been the same kind of injustice that Batman exists to fight against and protect others from. It doesn't change anything about Batman's origin or why he began his crusade. If anything, it might teach him that justice is more "grey" (thanks Snyder) rather than simply black and white, and even those who aren't completely innocent deserve the chance to live.

 

[DKDetective]

That could be the point in this context though. An enraged Bruce who thinks he's doing it for his parents because he thought one way about them but finds out his father was corrupt to begin with can help his arc to be a better Wayne (to help save his Bruce self) can be interesting. I'm not saying you can still personally like it, but objectively, in a vacuum, that's at least interesting and it can still have merit. Is it as accurate as the traditional comic book Batman? Not exactly, but I don't mind them straying from some of the dogma as long as it's executed well. I don't personally agree with Nolan retiring Bruce as Batman after a year, but I love it because it was executed well and told a powerful story as per the filmmaker's vision.

Same with Timm's interpretation as Batman being the true face and Bruce being the mask. I don't agree with that, but that doesn't mean you can't mine interesting stories from that.

See my more detailed post at the top of the page on that point. I can get behind the Waynes having a greyer legacy and putting a new spin on it by Bruce having to confront some un-comfortable truths about his family's impact on Gotham.

It depends on how they take it. It is execution to an extent and I am very much open to new interpretations, but sometimes disagreements about the character can go too far. If they go the Telltale route, it will probably undermine my enjoyment of the film. Personally, I did not find Nolan's retirement of Batman well executed at all, but that is a situation where mileage will vary.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I think as long as it's used as a way to help Bruce develop a more complex worldview it can be an effective device.

 

[CondimentKing]

Part of me was a bit disappointed that we didn't get more detective vibes like the first trailer, but the more I think about the new trailer the more glad I am that they didn't show any of that because almost nothing from Riddler's plot was spoiled, which is a rarity for second trailers nowadays. Compare this to the main BvS trailer that completely ruined the Wonder Woman and Doomsday reveals. Night and day. With these scenes in context with the voiceover - I'm positive Reeves will deliver on the detective angle.

 

[Boom]

Near three minutes of a near three hour movie.

 

[Invader Joker]

There is also the progression that we know Reeves in making of Bruce basically having no interest in being Bruce and wanting to only be Batman and learning to see value in Bruce Wayne that seems to be telegraphed in this take. That progression makes less sense if Bruce learns that the Wayne legacy is horrible and corrupt during the film.

I think it actually makes more sense since he'd have very good reason to change that legacy.

 

[CondimentKing]

Near three minutes of a near three hour movie.

Exactly. There's so much we haven't seen.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Part of me was a bit disappointed that we didn't get more detective vibes like the first trailer, but the more I think about the new trailer the more glad I am that they didn't show any of that because almost nothing from Riddler's plot was spoiled, which is a rarity for second trailers nowadays. Compare this to the main BvS trailer that completely ruined the Wonder Woman and Doomsday reveals. Night and day. With these scenes in context with the voiceover - I'm positive Reeves will deliver on the detective angle.

I think this is one of the things about the trailer I loved so much. There's a lot of action, sure, but we still really don't know much about this film or how things play out. I'm still wondering where the hell Batman is in that shot where they're shooting at him in the dark. or in the behind the scenes clip where he kicks down the door to wherever with Gordon at his side. Or pretty much anything!

 

[CondimentKing]

So pumped for him and Gordon to just hang out, solving crime. His friendship with Gordon seems to be a really big part of the movie. It feels like the batsignal is *just* for Gordon to call him, not the GCPD. In the behind the scenes reel it looks like Batman even shows Gordon either the batcave or a Wayne batmobile prototype garage. They seem to trust each other.

 

[Luke995]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, and it's the reason I've been quiet about it for the past couple of days.

But, am I the only one who wasn't immediately excited by what they saw in the trailer? All I could think of while watching it was "great, but, we've seen a lot of this before"... Riddler/Joker live streaming a kill, Batman in the interrogation room, a bruiser/brawler take on the character "full of rage".

Like, Reeves isn't breaking a lot of new ground here. Sure, there is general visual aesthetic taken from films like Seven and Zodiac, but overall, I'm not seeing a fresh, innovative new take here. Certainly not in the way I was imagining from the teaser.

Now, I truly don't want to take away from other people's enjoyment of the trailer, but it just didn't GRAB ME like the first one did, and I wanted to get that out there.

I don't fully agree but I have to agree with the fact that Riddler's way to be a menace is not so distant to Joker's in TDK.

I hoped it was more like John Doe, but all the flood thing or the collar on Colson...
I don't know: too much explosions.
I am tired of all that fire in this kind of movies, frankly.

I mean, ok, the movie won't be so action like this trailer and, ok, Riddler will have riddles and psychological trap, but I hope that, beyond some action scenes which are necessary in a Batman movie, the flow of the movie will be truly noir.

Of course it wasn't a great idea to spoil in the trailer the flood and all the victims of Riddler with, plus, the thing "sins of my father", but... They did.

So, by this point, I hope this movie won't be just a "TDK with more rough and badass action, with Riddler instead Joker, with more emotional side and with an amazing worldbuild for the future saga".

Well... Put in this way it may be the greatest Batman movie LOL
But I hope to be surprised in some way.

 

[CondimentKing]

You don't make Riddler the main villain if it's not a psychological thriller, it'll definitely be a detective movie first and foremost. But this is also the post-John Wick world. Of course there'll be sweet Arkham-inspired fight scenes. It's just a big selling point. It'll be totally different from TDK even with unavoidable Batman-essential scenes like villain interrogations.

 

[DKDetective]

I think it actually makes more sense since he'd have very good reason to change that legacy.

I disagree. Wanting to redeem or change a family legacy in and of itself suggests that a family legacy is important or valuable. This is a Bruce that starts out as having no interest in being Bruce Wayne. He just wants to be Batman. If it turns out that his family legacy is in essence one of corruption and evil, it would just make him want to abandon it more. The most natural lesson learned in that situation is to go your own way and be your own man.

If the legacy is more mixed and grey, doing some good but at the price of some evil, then it gives Bruce something of value to want to fight for and fix.

 

[Invader Joker]

I disagree. Wanting to redeem or change a family legacy in and of itself suggests that a family legacy is important or valuable. This is a Bruce that starts out as having no interest in being Bruce Wayne. He just wants to be Batman. If it turns out that his family legacy is in essence one of corruption and evil, it would just make him want to abandon it more. The most natural lesson learned in that situation is to go your own way and be your own man.

If the legacy is more mixed and grey, doing some good but at the price of some evil, then it gives Bruce something of value to want to fight for and fix.

Or maybe it's not so much about redeeming the family legacy, but just using the wealth that was acquired via corruption to help the city his family helped to destroy. It could also be a matter of "Thomas Wayne may not have been the man you admired to be, but you could become that man", which would be an interesting narrative curveball, becoming the ideal he wanted his parents to be.

 

[Boom]

Watched the 27-minute interview with Reeves, Pattinson and Kravitz.

Reeves is one of the most jovial and vivacious directors I've ever watched in an interview. Infectious energy. And he seems all-in on this world. I wonder if he will jump straight into the sequel.

 

[Invader Joker]

Watched the 27-minute interview with Reeves, Pattinson and Kravitz.

Reeves is one of the most jovial and vivacious directors I've ever watched in an interview. Infectious energy. And he seems all-in on this world. I wonder if he will jump straight into the sequel.

Seeing how he's already jumped straight into not one, but two spin-off shows I think it's basically a guarantee he'll go straight into the sequel, just like he did with Apes. He's not like Nolan.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Watched the 27-minute interview with Reeves, Pattinson and Kravitz.

Reeves is one of the most jovial and vivacious directors I've ever watched in an interview. Infectious energy. And he seems all-in on this world. I wonder if he will jump straight into the sequel.

I would not be surprised if theres an official sequel announcement soon after this releases. And I don't think Pattinson currently has any projects lined up either.

Edit: @Invader Joker beat me to it haha

 

[Doctor Jones]

See my more detailed post at the top of the page on that point. I can get behind the Waynes having a greyer legacy and putting a new spin on it by Bruce having to confront some un-comfortable truths about his family's impact on Gotham.

It depends on how they take it. It is execution to an extent and I am very much open to new interpretations, but sometimes disagreements about the character can go too far. If they go the Telltale route, it will probably undermine my enjoyment of the film. Personally, I did not find Nolan's retirement of Batman well executed at all, but that is a situation where mileage will vary.

What you said above could very well be the case. What Reeves said in that it, "Touches Bruce's origins and shakes him to his core" sounds pretty extreme. It makes me think they're going with the Telltale version. Maybe Bruce's answer is that he doesn't need his parents deaths to be a Batman and that revelation can snap him out of it, and being Batman is for his own reasons instead of being tied to his trauma. I think that can be really cool. Especially if it helps him save his soul. In my book, that can still make him Batman. Because his humanity is one of the three triangle points for what makes Batman for me, so if he can go through that to improve his humanity, that would stay true to that. But I understand if you may still not like that idea in principle.

 

[Invader Joker]

I would not be surprised if theres an official sequel announcement soon after this releases. And I don't think Pattinson currently has any projects lined up either.

Edit: @Invader Joker beat me to it haha

It's actually surprising how Robert has absolutely nothing lined up. He's completely free for the foreseeable future, so that increases the chances he'll appear in all the spin-offs.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I am inclined to believe they will go more a grey area with the Waynes as well given Zoe herself mentioned the grey area as something that gets explored in the movie. Worth mentioning