The Batman General News & Discussion Thread - Part 2

[TheSmoothKnight]

Welp, Walter is out the door.

 

[Boom]

Slept on it. Here are my thoughts.

It's premature to assume we're getting a third movie, but we are least getting The Batman 2. I imagine that we're looking at a 2025/2026 release date for it. As of right now, The Flash is scheduled to release in 2023. If that movie is going to effectively "reset" the DCEU, then Reeves' Batman franchise is going to bleed over into that.

If WBD was only interesting in making Justice League movies and that's it, then I'd advocate for them just casting another Batman for those movies (like Armie Hammer and Justice League Mortal). But if the plan is to replicate Marvel, then that means solo movies and crossover appearances between characters. Now suddenly, the DCEU Batman is looking to be much more involved. In that case, I think it is extremely risk having two Batmen running concurrently on the big screen.

Personally, I do not want shared universe concepts introduced in Reeves' movies. I don't want Superman showing up. I don't want winking mentions of Themyscira and Green Lantern Corps. I don't want to have to keep up with every other DC film in order to understand what's going on in a Batman movie. I simply don't like the idea that we were introduced to this gritty, urban, realistic Batman universe that Reeves went through painstaking effort to create, and now suddenly we're supposed to just accept that there are aliens and demigods flying around out there. The implications of those types of beings existing does have impact on the sort of immersion experience Reeves is trying to create. So yeah, ideally I want Reeves to move forward as planned. Self-contained Batman movies that deal exclusively with Batman and Batman-related things.

BUT...

If Zaslav wanted to see if Pattinson was open to also functioning as the "DCEU Batman" in separate projects, that might make things more palatable. You'd still have two versions of Batman in theaters concurrently, but both would at least be played by the same actor. The only caveat here is Pattinson's "DCEU Batman" would not have solo films. He would simply appear in Justice League movies and in supporting roles in other characters' movies. That's about the only compromise I'd be at peace with.

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

$$$ talks, I'm sure Rob would listen if Zaslav offered him a big salary increase.

 

[antsman41]

Want to make this world fantastical? Give me Clayface, Mr. Freeze, and Man-Bat any day...

...before that Kansas farm boy and an Amazonian warrior.

 

[antsman41]

$$$ talks, I'm sure Rob would listen if Zaslav offered him a big salary increase.

Rob is an artist... that's why The Batman is his first IP since finishing Twilight. He makes his money on the side with DIOR and such, so he doesn't sacrifice his passion for money.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Frankly, the odds of Battinson being connected with a larger DCEU are almost 0%. Reeves has stated from the beginning that it's his own thing, he seems very focused to his plan, and seeing it's success and similarities with Nolan, I don't think WB is going to clash with him... at least not now.
Affleck, I can see coming back. He said he was done and is doing 2 more films, plus he has a pretty big fan base, and it's clearly in a better place right now.

Pattinson is not under contract with Matt Reeves though. His deal is (and potentially will continue to be) with WB. If Rob agrees to do a World’s Finest or JL movie in between projects with Reeves, then I don’t see a problem.

 

[ChocTalk]

I hope he doesn't cross over into a shared universe. I like him in his own.

 

[Boom]

I hope he doesn't cross over into a shared universe. I like him in his own.

But that is the beauty of this scenario.

Let's say Zaslav tells Matt Reeves he can proceed with his Batman films as planned and they can remain self-contained. But let's also say that they negotiate a contract extension with Robert Pattinson where he also plays Batman in separate, shared universe-related projects. So he's effectively the "Reeves" Batman and the "DCEU" Batman.

Just because Reeves doesn't make reference to a larger DC universe in his Batman films doesn't mean that fans can't make that connection if they so choose. This scenario puts fans in a position where they can almost create their own head canon. For fans that want things kept separate, they can enjoy Reeves' films in isolation and take or leave Pattinson playing Batman elsewhere. For those fans that are all about the shared universe, then they can just consider Reeves' films as being part of it.

The thing about cameos and references and crossovers is that they force a bigger connection and you can't avoid it whether you want it or not. You're not going to fully enjoy the Captain America films unless you're totally onboard with the shared universe and you've seen all the Avengers films. If they let Reeves keep his films contained, but they can convince Pattinson to play Batman elsewhere, you let the fans make up their own minds. It's actually kinda perfect.

The big caveat here, of course, is Pattinson's interest in such a proposal.

 

[shauner111]

Frankly, the odds of Battinson being connected with a larger DCEU are almost 0%. Reeves has stated from the beginning that it's his own thing, he seems very focused to his plan, and seeing it's success and similarities with Nolan, I don't think WB is going to clash with him... at least not now.
Affleck, I can see coming back. He said he was done and is doing 2 more films, plus he has a pretty big fan base, and it's clearly in a better place right now.

Zaslav said they are starting over. Affleck said he’s not interested in doing blockbusters anymore. He’s out. So is Cavill.

Reeves never said that this Batman will never ever exist in a larger DC universe. He even entertained the idea down the road but said he wouldn’t do it himself because it’s not personal to him. The only thing he’s against is having other superheroes appearing in his movies. He doesn’t know how to write stuff like that into his scripts since he’s also the writer. So that’s about it. I’d say there’s a 50/50 chance of Pattinson being used for a DCU Batman.

 

[Rick190293]

Pattinson is not under contract with Matt Reeves though. His deal is (and potentially will continue to be) with WB. If Rob agrees to do a World’s Finest or JL movie in between projects with Reeves, then I don’t see a problem.

Zaslav said they are starting over. Affleck said he’s not interested in doing blockbusters anymore. He’s out. So is Cavill.

Reeves never said that this Batman will never ever exist in a larger DC universe. He even entertained the idea down the road but said he wouldn’t do it himself because it’s not personal to him. The only thing he’s against is having other superheroes appearing in his movies. He doesn’t know how to write stuff like that into his scripts since he’s also the writer. So that’s about it. I’d say there’s a 50/50 chance of Pattinson being used for a DCU Batman.

Yeah, I know he's a WB employee and not a Reeves one, but I don't know, I saw him and Matt like Bale and Nolan. They look so commited to their grounded approach that it seems very unlikely to change the things right now. But, it can happen, definitely.

 

[shauner111]

Slept on it. Here are my thoughts.

It's premature to assume we're getting a third movie, but we are least getting The Batman 2. I imagine that we're looking at a 2025/2026 release date for it. As of right now, The Flash is scheduled to release in 2023. If that movie is going to effectively "reset" the DCEU, then Reeves' Batman franchise is going to bleed over into that.

If WBD was only interesting in making Justice League movies and that's it, then I'd advocate for them just casting another Batman for those movies (like Armie Hammer and Justice League Mortal). But if the plan is to replicate Marvel, then that means solo movies and crossover appearances between characters. Now suddenly, the DCEU Batman is looking to be much more involved. In that case, I think it is extremely risk having two Batmen running concurrently on the big screen.

Personally, I do not want shared universe concepts introduced in Reeves' movies. I don't want Superman showing up. I don't want winking mentions of Themyscira and Green Lantern Corps. I don't want to have to keep up with every other DC film in order to understand what's going on in a Batman movie. I simply don't like the idea that we were introduced to this gritty, urban, realistic Batman universe that Reeves went through painstaking effort to create, and now suddenly we're supposed to just accept that there are aliens and demigods flying around out there. The implications of those types of beings existing does have impact on the sort of immersion experience Reeves is trying to create. So yeah, ideally I want Reeves to move forward as planned. Self-contained Batman movies that deal exclusively with Batman and Batman-related things.

BUT...

If Zaslav wanted to see if Pattinson was open to also functioning as the "DCEU Batman" in separate projects, that might make things more palatable. You'd still have two versions of Batman in theaters concurrently, but both would at least be played by the same actor. The only caveat here is Pattinson's "DCEU Batman" would not have solo films. He would simply appear in Justice League movies and in supporting roles in other characters' movies. That's about the only compromise I'd be at peace with.

I think it would be a slow burn with Battinson as the Downey of the universe, maturing into that 40 something Batman who runs with a Justice League. You have solo films for the next several years for each character, all doing their own thing. No cameos or wink winks in Reeves’ films. Then they all start meeting each other. Basically post-The Batman 2 is where the alien stuff starts to emerge in that world.

 

[shauner111]

Rob is an artist... that's why The Batman is his first IP since finishing Twilight. He makes his money on the side with DIOR and such, so he doesn't sacrifice his passion for money.

But he’s literally the one asking for more fantasy in Batman. I’m sure if he likes the concept he’ll say yes. If he doesn’t, he’ll say no. But he’s not Bale who refuses to do it without Nolan or refuses to go to work if traditional Robin is in the movies.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, I know he's a WB employee and not a Reeves one, but I don't know, I saw him and Matt like Bale and Nolan. They look so commited to their grounded approach that it seems very unlikely to change the things right now. But, it can happen, definitely.

I can assure you that Pattinson isn’t committed to the grounded approach though. The producer even said if it was up to Rob there would be supernatural stuff all over these movies.

 

[antsman41]

But he’s literally the one asking for more fantasy in Batman. I’m sure if he likes the concept he’ll say yes. If he doesn’t, he’ll say no. But he’s not Bale who refuses to do it without Nolan or refuses to go to work if traditional Robin is in the movies.

BATMAN fantasy... not DC fantasy, they're very different in terms of plotting/story/realism within Reeves' world and the comics.

 

[shauner111]

I don’t think Rob cares. He wants to play Batman “for as long as they’ll have me”. A far cry from Bale’s mentality.

 

[BatLobster]

Creating a unified DC universe is the juggling with a lot of different tones and colliding worlds that shouldn't necessarily mesh. With Batman always being the one that clashes most with the rest of it, while also being DC's most popular character. That's the inherent challenge that DC always faces and why I think it's been such a tricky nut to crack on film. Let alone the fact that there are so many flavors of Batman and Gotham is a whole universe in and of itself with lots of stories and characters still untapped for exploration on film.

Just because something works on the pages or in animation doesn't automatically means it works in a live action movie. Marvel was able to get around this by essentially making their films comedies and that are self-aware about how weird and ridiculous they are. But there isn't a single Marvel film that is as grounded in reality, dark in tone or as fully committed to a weighty film genre (noir) as The Batman is. And if we follow the thought experiment through, The Batman would be the ground floor of the hypothetical DCEU 2.0.

The current version of the DCEU tried to get around this issue by making Superman and Superman's world darker. I think it's fair to say that this backfired majorly. Then they tried to overcorrect by making it into an MCU movie, which also backfired. DC has had this brand identity issue for a very long time now, probably ever since the 80s. There's a very large bridge to gap here, and it's definitely not an easy balance to achieve. To start with a street level vigilante detective and take him all the way to a place where he's leading a team of meta-humans against extraplanetary threats and gods, and have the audience fully buy into that is no small feat.

Another thing to keep in mind....BvS, like it or not, was a once in a lifetime opportunity to merge those worlds. It told the story of how Bruce Wayne/Batman reacts to the knowledge that we're not alone in the universe and that there are beings infinitely more powerful than him here on Earth. So that story has already been told, for better or worse. Now you have to also find a way around that and find a way to basically re-tell that story of Batman meeting Superman for the "first time" without feeling like too much of a repeat.

It's nice and all that Zaslav is saying there's a 10 year plan, and I don't blame him for trying to follow the money cause that's his job. But I think it's hubris if any executive goes into this thinking it's easy and they just need to follow X formula and presto, thriving cinematic universe. There's a reason it is been a huge creative challenge to get off the ground up to this point. DC is a very different beast from Marvel.

 

[dhandler01]

But that is the beauty of this scenario.

Let's say Zaslav tells Matt Reeves he can proceed with his Batman films as planned and they can remain self-contained. But let's also say that they negotiate a contract extension with Robert Pattinson where he also plays Batman in separate, shared universe-related projects. So he's effectively the "Reeves" Batman and the "DCEU" Batman.

Just because Reeves doesn't make reference to a larger DC universe in his Batman films doesn't mean that fans can't make that connection if they so choose. This scenario puts fans in a position where they can almost create their own head canon. For fans that want things kept separate, they can enjoy Reeves' films in isolation and take or leave Pattinson playing Batman elsewhere. For those fans that are all about the shared universe, then they can just consider Reeves' films as being part of it.

The thing about cameos and references and crossovers is that they force a bigger connection and you can't avoid it whether you want it or not. You're not going to fully enjoy the Captain America films unless you're totally onboard with the shared universe and you've seen all the Avengers films. If they let Reeves keep his films contained, but they can convince Pattinson to play Batman elsewhere, you let the fans make up their own minds. It's actually kinda perfect.

The big caveat here, of course, is Pattinson's interest in such a proposal.

Honestly, that is the only way I can stand shared universes. I like small connections, name dropping, mentioning events and so on. (like say Aquaman) Even a small cameo can be ok if done right. Once you start overarching stories you hamper storytelling way too much.

Now I still don't think there is anything to what Frosty is saying, but if their was your scenario is the most likely. That is what WB wanted out of Bale back in the day but he was loyal to Nolan more than anything IIRC.

 

[Rick190293]

I can assure you that Pattinson isn’t committed to the grounded approach though. The producer even said if it was up to Rob there would be supernatural stuff all over these movies.

Well, if he's open to it, is one less obstacle.

 

[Boom]

Creating a unified DC universe is the juggling with a lot of different tones and colliding worlds that shouldn't necessarily mesh. With Batman always being the one that clashes most with the rest of it, while also being DC's most popular character. That's the inherent challenge that DC always faces and why I think it's been such a tricky nut to crack on film. Let alone the fact that there are so many flavors of Batman and Gotham is a whole universe in and of itself with lots of stories and characters still untapped for exploration on film.

Just because something works on the pages or in animation doesn't automatically means it works in a live action movie. Marvel was able to get around this by essentially making their films comedies and that are self-aware about how weird and ridiculous they are. But there isn't a single Marvel film that is as grounded in reality, dark in tone or as fully committed to a weighty film genre (noir) as The Batman is. And if we follow the thought experiment through, The Batman would be the ground floor of the hypothetical DCEU 2.0.

The current version of the DCEU tried to get around this issue by making Superman and Superman's world darker. I think it's fair to say that this backfired majorly. Then they tried to overcorrect by making it into an MCU movie, which also backfired. DC has had this brand identity issue for a very long time now, probably ever since the 80s. There's a very large bridge to gap here, and it's definitely not an easy balance to achieve. To start with a street level vigilante detective and take him all the way to a place where he's leading a team of meta-humans against extraplanetary threats and gods, and have the audience fully buy into that is no small feat.

Another thing to keep in mind....BvS, like it or not, was a once in a lifetime opportunity to merge those worlds. It told the story of how Bruce Wayne/Batman reacts to the knowledge that we're not alone in the universe and that there are beings infinitely more powerful than him here on Earth. So that story has already been told, for better or worse. Now you have to also find a way around that and find a way to basically re-tell that story of Batman meeting Superman for the "first time" without feeling like too much of a repeat.

It's nice and all that Zaslav is saying there's a 10 year plan, and I don't blame him for trying to follow the money cause that's his job. But I think it's hubris if any executive goes into this thinking it's easy and they just need to follow X formula and presto, thriving cinematic universe. There's a reason it is been a huge creative challenge to get off the ground up to this point. DC is a very different beast from Marvel.

So much of this post echoes my own sentiments. Well put.

I think if you're going to include a character like Batman in a bigger DC universe with the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and Green Lantern, then you really need to lean into a more heightened sci-fi/fantasy take on the character and his mythos right from the jump. Futuristic suits, vehicles and gadgets, supernatural villains, an uncompromised Bat Family, etc. When you surround Batman with fantasy elements inside of his own sandbox, putting him in something as unapologetically fantasy-based as Justice League doesn't come across as too farfetched.

There is no realm of reality where I watch The Batman and think, "Oh yeah, there's definitely a corps of space cops with magic green rings out there. Totally." The concepts and too diametrically opposed for me.

 

[shauner111]

If this isn’t connected, great. All I care about is Batman. But I can adapt if it’s a shared universe. Just do it properly. I don’t think it’s difficult to make the steps towards a World’s Finest.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Creating a unified DC universe is the juggling with a lot of different tones and colliding worlds that shouldn't necessarily mesh. With Batman always being the one that clashes most with the rest of it, while also being DC's most popular character. That's the inherent challenge that DC always faces and why I think it's been such a tricky nut to crack on film. Let alone the fact that there are so many flavors of Batman and Gotham is a whole universe in and of itself with lots of stories and characters still untapped for exploration on film.

Just because something works on the pages or in animation doesn't automatically means it works in a live action movie. Marvel was able to get around this by essentially making their films comedies and that are self-aware about how weird and ridiculous they are. But there isn't a single Marvel film that is as grounded in reality, dark in tone or as fully committed to a weighty film genre (noir) as The Batman is. And if we follow the thought experiment through, The Batman would be the ground floor of the hypothetical DCEU 2.0.

The current version of the DCEU tried to get around this issue by making Superman and Superman's world darker. I think it's fair to say that this backfired majorly. Then they tried to overcorrect by making it into an MCU movie, which also backfired. DC has had this brand identity issue for a very long time now, probably ever since the 80s. There's a very large bridge to gap here, and it's definitely not an easy balance to achieve. To start with a street level vigilante detective and take him all the way to a place where he's leading a team of meta-humans against extraplanetary threats and gods, and have the audience fully buy into that is no small feat.

Another thing to keep in mind....BvS, like it or not, was a once in a lifetime opportunity to merge those worlds. It told the story of how Bruce Wayne/Batman reacts to the knowledge that we're not alone in the universe and that there are beings infinitely more powerful than him here on Earth. So that story has already been told, for better or worse. Now you have to also find a way around that and find a way to basically re-tell that story of Batman meeting Superman for the "first time" without feeling like too much of a repeat.

It's nice and all that Zaslav is saying there's a 10 year plan, and I don't blame him for trying to follow the money cause that's his job. But I think it's hubris if any executive goes into this thinking it's easy and they just need to follow X formula and presto, thriving cinematic universe. There's a reason it is been a huge creative challenge to get off the ground up to this point. DC is a very different beast from Marvel.

And this exactly why I don't think it's gonna work out in the end. What Reeves has established with his Batman, at least at this stage, feels too far removed from a league of superhumans that fight gods and go to space. We don't know where Reeves is taking The Batman 2, and I have a hunch that it's gonna feel like a very different film than the first, but I still don't think there's much interest there by Reeves or Rob for that matter to be part of a larger universe. Maybe they can be conviced, but I have my doubts.

Setting Reeves world aside, and the Snyder movies, the world has come to be used to Gal as Wonder Woman or Momoa as Aquaman. I do think Gal has probably one movie left, but I also think that it's gonna be difficult to try to restart all of that as well as try to juggle a shared universe that builds to a justice league movie. You can't just start over that easily, and while they did screw up the last time, at least they were trying to find their footing post snyder by focusing on good movies than trying to connect all of them. Wonder Woman, Shazam, The Batman, and heck even Aquaman are all good to great movies.

 

[Iceman]

If this isn’t connected, great. All I care about is Batman. But I can adapt if it’s a shared universe. Just do it properly. I don’t think it’s difficult to make the steps towards a World’s Finest.

Yeah, that's how I see it. Reeves is the master creator here and I'd rather it all happened how he wants it. But as long as they leave his films as their own thing I don't see why the characters can't do different things outside of that, and at least when the Reeves films are done. Same would have applied IMO with Bale once the Nolan films were done.

 

[dhandler01]

It's nice and all that Zaslav is saying there's a 10 year plan, and I don't blame him for trying to follow the money cause that's his job. But I think it's hubris if any executive goes into this thinking it's easy and they just need to follow X formula and presto, thriving cinematic universe. There's a reason it is been a huge creative challenge to get off the ground up to this point. DC is a very different beast from Marvel.

What makes you think he thinks it is easy? They havent even started part 1 yet. (not Phase 1 Part 1) Doing it this way is the antithesis of easy. He is literally writing off films to try and get back to a decent starting position and is looking for someone to create something new. The easy way would be to try and fix what is broken not burn down the house and start over. Hell it would be easier to just bring back Snyder...

I think he knows it is going to be a huge problem and likely a costly one with a lot of bad press to start. People like Walter Hamada and Emmerich thought it was easy and well...

 

[shauner111]

@Boom Reeves probably won’t do that. But that’s alright because all you need to do is create a trilogy with Matt that is grounded, then do World’s Finest/Justice League. After the Steppenwolf/Darkseid stuff you don’t need to bring in some alien god for the first DCU team-ups. When Battinson comes back to a fourth solo years later (if that were to happen) it doesn’t need to be with Reeves. And you can bring a supernatural villain into Gotham.

I also like the idea of keeping the solos realistic and scaled down with each threat while blowing up the cross-overs with fantastical threats.

 

[spideyfan77]

Honestly, its going to take a lot of time for these movies to be done….you could literally reboot the DC universe with solo movies for superman, green lantern, wonder woman, aquaman, and flash. Then do the batman reboot that is connected after those solo movies leading into justice league. That is like 10+ years to do. Reeves and pattinson will be done by then. I think Zaslav just wants to have at least some movies to come out for DC that are clearly not part of the universe to make money while he sets up the connected universe.

Let reeves and pattinson do their movies then once finished. Start fresh with new batman for the rebooted universe.