The Batman vs The Dark Knight

[BatLobster]

I don't get the criticisms of Nolan's editing in TDK tbh.

Stuff like the build-up to Joker crashing the party, the Rachel/Harvey sequence, the ending....some of the most effective editing in the entire Batman franchise IMO. It's definitely used as a weapon, as it should be-- it's one of the most powerful tools in a filmmaker's arsenal.

Even just the way the bank heist prologue is edited is just killer. Nonstop forward momentum, not a wasted frame, and to this day I think it just creates a tense mood of paranoid anxiety that is hard for me to describe.

 

[Jermobooka]

edit: double post, oops.

 

[Jermobooka]

I don’t think it’s possible to at all overstate just how great, how influential TDK and the rest of the trilogy were (and still are!). Everyone has already sung its many, many praises as nauseam, so I won’t talk about it here.

Despite that, I find The Batman to click with me (on a “ginormous-batman-nerd” level and a “movie-connoisseur” level) more than The Dark Knight does. The aesthetics, the tone, the story, the action, the script…it’s just 20 meters more up my alley than TDK.

 

[shauner111]

I think the constant cutting back and forth from the action heavy Prewitt stuff to the dialogue driven ferry scenes kills the momentum in the third act. It just feels like a jolt, back & forth. There’s this drive with what’s happening with Joker and the goons, then it’s cut off at the legs everytime the music stops and you’re just sitting/standing still with prisoners and guards...watching their reactions. Then BAM speed picks up in the Prewitt building. I get why he’s cutting back and forth but I don’t find it smooth.

Also TDK has way better editing than Begins or Rises. The prologue is perfect. Most of it is. Hell, most of the big chase scene is well done. But once Batman lets loose with the bat pod, the editing is all over the place. People talk about not being able to figure out where everyone is in the Penguin/Batmobile chase (I followed it just fine) but the bat pod driving down streets, down alleyways, breaking through glass doors , riding through malls, back on the streets. Watch it again. It’s all out of order. It’s confusing editing.

These are definitely nitpicks though. Nolan’s editing in the first and third instalments are almost offensive compared to TDK. He just rushes in the editing room and wants to get it done. Which hurts the craft of his movies. He says it himself that it’s the editing and lack of letting stuff breathe that embarrasses him everytime he hears a comparison to Kubrick. I wish he took his time and went over every detail like Reeves.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I think the constant cutting back and forth from the action heavy Prewitt stuff to the dialogue driven ferry scenes kills the momentum in the third act. It just feels like a jolt, back & forth. There’s this drive with what’s happening with Joker and the goons, then it’s cut off at the legs everytime the music stops and you’re just sitting/standing still with prisoners and guards...watching their reactions. Then BAM speed picks up in the Prewitt building. I get why he’s cutting back and forth but I don’t find it smooth.

Also TDK has way better editing than Begins or Rises. The prologue is perfect. Most of it is. Hell, most of the big chase scene is well done. But once Batman lets loose with the bat pod, the editing is all over the place. People talk about not being able to figure out where everyone is in the Penguin/Batmobile chase (I followed it just fine) but the bat pod driving down streets, down alleyways, breaking through glass doors , riding through malls, back on the streets. Watch it again. It’s all out of order. It’s confusing editing.

These are definitely nitpicks though. Nolan’s editing in the first and third instalments are almost offensive compared to TDK. He just rushes in the editing room and wants to get it done. Which hurts the craft of his movies. He says it himself that it’s the editing and lack of letting stuff breathe that embarrasses him everytime he hears a comparison to Kubrick. I wish he took his time and went over every detail like Reeves.

Yeah, I always think of this moment from Begins when I think of Nolan's editing style.



It...definitely leaves a lot to be desired lmao

I can appreciate finding it a bit hard to follow the chase in TB given the added focus to POV shots rather than chase cams. It kinda reminds me of this chase from Drive, if anything but just cranked up to eleven but also set in pitch dark with heavy rain.



I personally followed TB chase fine, but I can get people finding it a little hard to follow. Despite that though, strictly from a continuity standpoint Reeves' editing for action tends to be a lot better than Nolan's. Nolan only makes rare errors like the above, but they're always pretty glaring. I can't say I've noticed anything to that extent with Reeves' editing.

 

[shauner111]

Check the convo between Katie and Christian at the end of Begins. Or between JGL and Oldman at the funeral in Rises. It’s just poor camera placement and editing. Nolan does this a lot and it’s quite distracting. You see it in bad tv shows, where you have a reaction shot of the actor while the opposite is speaking...but you see the others lips in the shot and those lips ain’t moving even though we’re hearing dialogue. I even noticed it in the court room with Eckhart and Maggie Gyllenhaal.

 

[shauner111]

Simply put; Nolan has a rough time with shooting coverage, with blocking, and editing.

 

[The Joker]

I don't get the criticisms of Nolan's editing in TDK tbh.

Stuff like the build-up to Joker crashing the party, the Rachel/Harvey sequence, the ending....some of the most effective editing in the entire Batman franchise IMO. It's definitely used as a weapon, as it should be-- it's one of the most powerful tools in a filmmaker's arsenal.

Even just the way the bank heist prologue is edited is just killer. Nonstop forward momentum, not a wasted frame, and to this day I think it just creates a tense mood of paranoid anxiety that is hard for me to describe.

Hear hear.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't mind the jump cuts in the chase scenes personally, I mean I've always been aware of it. To me it's just part of the kinetic language established for those movies. in TDK, Batman takes a shortcut, driving through the mall to intercept Joker on the other side of the building. I completely get the information it's conveying. It's a bit on the experimental side, but I dig it for that.

As for over the shoulder stuff...if I don't notice it, it's non-issue for me. I took a film editing course in college, I remember one thing that stuck from me in Walter Murch's In the Blink of an Eye book on editing- what it comes down to is that story is always going to triumph over continuity in the editing room at the end of the day. It's not uncommon. I think as Nolan's career has progressed, he's gotten a lot better and telling more with less shots, which is great and makes him a better filmmaker, but I think his films have always maintained a certain level of intensity and propulsion to them and a lot of that stems from a signature use of editing and music, which IMO are the two most powerful tools you've got as a filmmaker, other than the script.

End of the day Nolan and Reeves have had enormously different career trajectories. Nolan is an entirely self-taught filmmaker. He went directly from shooting a movie with his friends on weekends on a shoestring budget to making mainstream Hollywood films. It makes where he landed all the more impressive-- a status that most of his film school crowd contemporaries admire. Reeves' career has been more of a slow-burn- studied screenwriting (film school? not sure), produced TV with JJ, writing various projects. He absorbed a lot of facets of the industry before ever really stepped behind a camera. This is definitely a strength for him, I think it gave him time to marinate and figure out what he's good at. It also made him a bit of a chameleon. At the same time, I also think Nolan's trajectory has contributed to him having a more singular and unique voice as a filmmaker, like him or not. That's something I very much feel when I watch his films and appreciate though.

I mean, it's said over and over again but it really couldn't be much more apples and oranges IMO.

 

[shauner111]

Hot take, which performances where flat out terrible for your taste?

The actors who play reporters, prisoners, ordinary citizens on the boat or waiting for the boat, most of the cops. It’s all B-movie stuff. Which I embrace for actual B movies. But not when it’s mixed into a movie with great performances from seasoned actors. It’s just a really strange combination that takes me out of the movie.

 

[shauner111]

I also don’t think Maggie or Katie are very good in those movies. Maggie is an incredible actress but she looks uncomfortable throughout TDK. Still to this day I hate her delivery when she walks out of the court room with Eckhart “he’s a friend actually..” etc. The whole exchange is cringey and forced. Like WHAT is she even doing in that scene lol. She tones it down after that intro but woof. Hated it on opening night. Still do.

It’s so bizarre because I LOVE her in other movies. Only recently I watched an interview with her where she said it was nerve wracking for her to be on such a huge set. Her words “it is EXTREMELY difficult to be good in a movie of that size. The fact that Heath was able to be so incredible says a lot about him”.

 

[BMW 224]

I also don’t think Maggie or Katie are very good in those movies. Maggie is an incredible actress but she looks uncomfortable throughout TDK. Still to this day I hate her delivery when she walks out of the court room with Eckhart “he’s a friend actually..” etc. The whole exchange is cringey and forced. Like WHAT is she even doing in that scene lol. She tones it down after that intro but woof. Hated it on opening night. Still do.

It’s so bizarre because I LOVE her in other movies. Only recently I watched an interview with her where she said it was nerve wracking for her to be on such a huge set. Her words “it is EXTREMELY difficult to be good in a movie of that size. The fact that Heath was able to be so incredible says a lot about him”.

I loved Maggie in dark knight.

I don't feel that she was forced at all she felt like natural regular citizen who was trying to help Gotham and discover where she wanted her life to go.

The chemistry between her bale caine and eckhart felt realized to it's fullest potential and once she dies I really fealt her absence which is exactly what Nolan was going for.

I tear up on her death scene everytime with her last words.

Just because she's not as grim or serious as everyone else doesn't really bother me.

She was one of the bright more light parts of the movie that was tragically snuffed out by Jokers chaos for me.

I respect your opinion but I really don't see any bad performances in the dark knight every actor seems to be on there a game even the extras.

 

[WayneMB]

it's scary how much our opinions align shauner. jesus.

edit: though i think Maggie is good in 2/3 of her scenes.

 

[shauner111]

 

[shauner111]

it's scary how much our opinions align shauner. jesus.

edit: though i think Maggie is good in 2/3 of her scenes.

Her best scenes for me: the dinner with Harvey, Bruce and his Russian date. Her scene with Lau (she’s believable in her position unlike Katie who still feels like a 20 year old college student at the end of Begins). Her scene with Joker is great. That whole party actually. No chemistry between her and Bale in later scenes. She’s a bit annoying during the tie up scene lol yes i’m savage. Can’t remember the rest at the moment. Alls I know is this.. her introduction was really bad and knowing Nolan with what he did to Marion...there’s probably a MUCH better take he skipped over in the editing room in favour of the over-acting bit.

Overall, she was serviceable & uneven but it’s one of her weakest performances to date.

 

[shauner111]

I loved Maggie in dark knight.

I don't feel that she was forced at all she felt like natural regular citizen who was trying to help Gotham and discover where she wanted her life to go.

The chemistry between her bale caine and eckhart felt realized to it's fullest potential and once she dies I really fealt her absence which is exactly what Nolan was going for.

I tear up on her death scene everytime with her last words.

Just because she's not as grim or serious as everyone else doesn't really bother me.

She was one of the bright more light parts of the movie that was tragically snuffed out by Jokers chaos for me.

I respect your opinion but I really don't see any bad performances in the dark knight every actor seems to be on there a game even the extras.

The extras are the worst lol.

I never said I didn’t like her because she wasn’t serious or grim?

I don’t think she had good chemistry with anyone other than Eckhart.

 

[Doc Samson]

I don't think Maggie was bad per se, but besides being a continuity nut, in movies like this the most important thing to me is chemistry.

Say what you will about Holmes, she definitely looked too young and isn't the greatest actress but she had way more natural chemistry with Bale than either Maggie or Anne did. One of Nolan's biggest issues IMO is how cold his movies can feel with female leads, and I didn't buy either of those relationships in TDK/R (I thought Marion wasn't too bad).

 

[metaphysician]

The movie doesn’t go super far in implying it, because it’s still a big blockbuster, but Reeves is definitely playing with imagery that suggests the Riddler goons are gearing up for a mass shooting after Real is taken out.

I don't know, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they were supposed to just start killing everyone there. Like, there might technically be leeway to interpret it otherwise, but that seems to go against all the theming and subtext present. The Riddler's "go to war" video to his followers sure didn't *talk* about just killing Bella Real, after all, it spent a lot of time talking about Gotham in general being guilty.

 

[Herofan]

some of you are overestimating TDK influence. It certainly was groundbreaking but in the end it didn't change the course of cinema as it deserved to.

Some of its influence was quite negative.

 

[Herofan]

I always saw Batman's choice at the end as kind of an attempt to atone for his sins on the one hand, and an attempt to preserve hope for Gotham on the other.

What sins? Choosing to try to go after Rachel when he had to try to save one of the two? Not reporting Harvey the first time he seems to be ethically dubious? Well maybe not revealing his identity before Harvey did was a flaw, fault, still seems pretty overly harsh self-punishment.

I think they are both very notable for having such a supercompetent/omniscient/nearly omnipotent villain although that was more notable and definitely more bothersome with TB.

 

[BatLobster]

What sins? Choosing to try to go after Rachel when he had to try to save one of the two? Not reporting Harvey the first time he seems to be ethically dubious? Well maybe not revealing his identity before Harvey did was a flaw, fault, still seems pretty overly harsh self-punishment.

I think they are both very notable for having such a supercompetent/omniscient/nearly omnipotent villain although that was more notable and definitely more bothersome with TB.

The original "sin" of taking the law into his own hands and starting a war on crime, which resulted in unintended escalation- the emergence of The Joker, the fall of Harvey and most of all the death of the Rachel. Remember, he asks Alfred, "Did I bring this on her?".

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

They're both 9/10 movies for me. Obviously TDK had a massive cultural impact - both inside and outside the genre - but judged purely as a viewing experience The Batman just edges it.

 

[TheVileOne]

Movie for movie, The Dark Knight easily. But there are certainly things about The Batman I think are done better and executed better than Nolan's films.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Movie for movie, The Dark Knight easily. But there are certainly things about The Batman I think are done better and executed better than Nolan's films.

Yeah this is where I am at. TDK is still the GOAT for me but I loved TB and some of the things it did differently.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The two things I liked better in The Batman was the world building elements and the style/vibe of Gotham.