The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

[RetroNaz]

I'm shocked by some of the opinions in here. Resorting to the fan fiction ideas to 'improve' the story simply demonstrates that the people who hate Star Wars as much as people that hate Star Wars are the Star Wars fans.

 

[Frodo]

I'm shocked by some of the opinions in here. Resorting to the fan fiction ideas to 'improve' the story simply demonstrates that the people who hate Star Wars as much as people that hate Star Wars are the Star Wars fans.

I don't think that's the case . The whole reaction for and against the film is the example of passionate SW fans who both feel protective , overly so in alot of cases, of the SW.

As far as fanfiction or ideas to a film, that's pretty common across the boards here with a variety of films from DCEU films to Marvel films.

It sometimes reflects hate or dislike for how a particular movie played out, but I don't think it reflects Sw fans hating SW the most. They may hate this film the most, but they don't hate SW the most.

Its not from a place of hate but if anything extreme devotion and protectiveness of the properties. I actually see both sides of the division over this film as being more similar than different. Both sides love SW and are protective of it .

This is film is really the first time in 40 years SW fans have truly been divided over a film, and it shows. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe Disney needed a reminder that there are people who still care about SW beyond toys and merchandise and as a result they'll know to not just churn out these films like fastfood product , but they always strive for the best films possible.

 

[RetroNaz]

I don't think that's the case . The whole reaction for and against the film is the example of passionate SW fans who both feel protective , overly so in alot of cases, of the SW.

As far as fanfiction or ideas to a film, that's pretty common across the boards here with a variety of films from DCEU films to Marvel films.

It sometimes reflects hate or dislike for how a particular movie played out, but I don't think it reflects Sw fans hating SW the most. They may hate this film the most, but they don't hate SW the most.

Its not from a place of hate but if anything extreme devotion and protectiveness of the properties. I actually see both sides of the division over this film as being more similar than different. Both sides love SW and are protective of it .

This is film is really the first time in 40 years SW fans have truly been divided over a film, and it shows. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe Disney needed a reminder that there are people who still care about SW beyond toys and merchandise and as a result they'll know to not just churn out these films like fastfood product , but they always strive for the best films possible.

I think there was a lot of divisiveness with the PT. This isn't particularly new. Hate has been associated with Star Wars for many, many years now. I remember being pleasantly surprised by the initial TFA reactions until the typical Star Wars fan reaction kicked in with that one too.

 

[Brother Jack]

They both strive for their parents. Luke wants to do what he learns that his dead father did Rey thinks her parents are alive so she strives to meet them. Those are negligible differences and it's very clear that, just like TFA in general, they wanted to redo the old stuff.

Kylo is the character that they actually put some effort into making it special.

It's not so much that their stories are closely tied to their parentage but the contextual motives behind the tie to their parents that's important. From the beginning Luke's primary attribute is ambition. He wants to live the kind of adventurous life beyond Tatooine that he believes his father lead, and this is what defines him throughout the OT. It's why he goes with Kenobi, why he leaves Yoda to save his friends. He's headstrong, brash. Rey on the other hand is defined by reluctance. Because she believes her family will come back for her someday (which we now know was a lie she told herself; she already knew the truth) she doesn't want to leave Jakku. She doesn't want to take the lightsaber and become a Jedi, and only accepts it when her back is to the wall. In this way her strength with the force is ironic. If the force chooses those who are especially powerful, you'd think it would pick someone who actually wanted power.

Obviously there are a lot of similarities between Luke and Rey, and I would actually agree with you in the sense that a few go too far into the ripoff category, namely Jakku itself being just another Tatooine. But there are fundamental differences that go deeper than the surface level that don't just set them apart but set them as diametric opposites. By your logic, would it not be unfair to say that Kylo is nothing more than a ripoff of Anakin?

 

[danoyse]

This is film is really the first time in 40 years SW fans have truly been divided over a film, and it shows.

Oh sweet lord, do you not remember the prequels? When "George Lucas raped my childhood" became the rallying cry for every dweeb with internet access?

If you're not old enough to remember how ugly things were with the fandom back in those days, you have no idea how bad it really was.

 

[godisawesome]

Oh sweet lord, do you not remember the prequels? When "George Lucas raped my childhood" became the rallying cry for every dweeb with internet access?

If you're not old enough to remember how ugly things were with the fandom back in those days, you have no idea how bad it really was.

Yeah, I'm with you. This is more a return to form in terms of arguing and debate than some new thing.

I *do* think we may be looking at a situation with almost hilarious reverse arguments and problems from the prequels with TLJ. The prequels had middling (ROTS) to horrific (AOTC) execution in acting and directing, tended to favor plotting over scripting, and we're kind of known for going a bit crazy in scale and new locales. TLJ, and TFA to some extent, seems to have a more restricted sense of scale and a narrower focus, favors scripting over so-so plotting, and has strong acting and directing.

For the record, I do think TLJ is miles better than AOTC. I just also thinks its behind TFA in overall plotting and construction.

 

[Agent Orange]

Anakin's immaculate birth is the franchise's #1 mistake and problem (after Jar Jar). George never should have made Anakin Skywalker "special" in that way.

 

[DerekLake]

Anakin's immaculate birth is the franchise's #1 mistake and problem (after Jar Jar). George never should have made Anakin Skywalker "special" in that way.

Surely there are other, more important issues in the Prequels than that.

 

[Agent Orange]

Surely there are other, more important issues in the Prequels than that.

Sure, but it all stems from that nonsense. And it completely skewed my perspective on the Skywalkers and their place in that galaxy.

 

[godisawesome]

Anakin's immaculate birth is the franchise's #1 mistake and problem (after Jar Jar). George never should have made Anakin Skywalker "special" in that way.

I kind of hold that idea by him above what we're getting (ostensibly) right now with Rey and Ren because Lucas was using the pseudo-Messiah deal for dramatic irony and to subvert most of the Chosen One archetypes. He introduced an immaculate birth and a prophecy for a character who ultimately became infamous as a broken, bitter anti-Christ figure who only fulfilled his prophecy with a fairly pitiable but sacrificial show of compassion right before dying.

It's a dramatic tool designed to further display Anakin's fall from grace and make him an even greater foe for Obi-Wan in the third movie. And even with Lucas's generally horribleness directing, I think he managed to get that part done.

The midichlorians thing was still a mistake. Having a way to measure a Jedi's "chi" made sense, but trying to scientific the entire Force...wrong move.

 

[DerekLake]

Sure, but it all stems from that nonsense. And it completely skewed my perspective on the Skywalkers and their place in that galaxy.

Sure, the “Chosen One” idea elevates the Skywalkers from being important to this saga (the rise and fall of the Empire) to being super important in SW history... but it doesn’t change the idea, from the OT, that the Force is strong in Anakin’s family.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Anakin's immaculate birth is the franchise's #1 mistake and problem (after Jar Jar). George never should have made Anakin Skywalker "special" in that way.

Did that really change much in practice? It was really just to set up the prophecy and he was still going through a long journey before coming into his full power. Where Rey first overpowers and then defeats her well trained dark force user opponent very early on we have the mighty Anakin, after many years of training in the Jedi Order (in it's full glory), actually failing the first time he faced a dark side user.

So while Anakin was Force Jesus he was still written with more moderation for his context, which made him have more of a journey in his character arc. Given that I don't think he amounted to much of a problem in practice.

 

[Spider-Fan]

TLJ is divisive, but each prequel film had similar reaction. I lived it. For years those movies did hurt Star Wars for me

I started not looking at Star Wars as a true 1-6 saga then and looked at them as seperate trilogies. It helped me seperate the PT more and thus I liked Star Wars more, lol

 

[TheVileOne]

The prequels are still mostly badly made and badly written films.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes they are.

 

[TheVileOne]

The prequels are symbolic of how important Lucasfilm's collaborators were in the 70s and 80s. Especially his ex-wife who came up with the idea to have the Death Star moving in on the rebel base to destroy it on Yavin. For the prequels, Lucas didn't have those collaborators who would give him honest or constructive feedback that Lucas would actually heed and listen to.

So those really awkward scenes with Luke at Toshi Station got taken out.

And there is just no getting around how bad Hayden Christensen is as Anakin in Attack of the Clones. His romance with Padme is mind-boggling, especially the moment where she confesses to him before the Geonosis coliseum. John Williams created a beautiful, romantic theme for this story, but the writing and direction were not there.

The Jedi Order being hypocritical and full of hubris? Yes, OK. Ignorant? Yes, alright. But why the heck would the Jedi Order use the Clone army without questioning it at all and go on with the assumption that there's no connection with the Clone army, Jango Fett, Dooku, and the Separatists? When Yoda even says not to assume. The Grandmaster of Jedi Order even says that this army did not have the approval of the Jedi Council. He flat out says that. So why in the seven hells would you use such an army?

Obi-Wan tracked down an assassin to Kamino where he's the template for an entire army. He then tracks down that same assassin straight to Geonosis where he's working for Count Dooku and the Separatists. There's an illegal army you never knew about that was illegally commissioned apparently by the Jedi Order for the Republic.

That's a lot to expect the audience to basically believe that Mace Windu and Master Yoda are more than just hypocritical and full of hubris. They are blithering idiots. Saying the dark side clouding their judgment is not a good way to write that out.

 

[Orba]

For me I would also add "the one that will bring balance to the Force" bit. The Jedi were clearly dominate, they had 10K Jedi wandering the galaxy keeping the peace and a Sith had not been seen in a long time. Why would any Jedi think that it was a situation that needed to be balanced? Anyone with even the slightest bit of intelligence could see that the only way things could be balanced between dark and light would be if Anakin were to go bad and help destroy the Jedi. So why on earth does Kenobi think that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith?

 

[RetroNaz]

I'll wait for the PT remake to find out the true story of Anakin Skywalker, and how he brings balance to the Force for a short while with his son Jake.

 

[eon001]

I agree 100% with the treads sentiments. Rian was asked to build a house on a very shaky foundation laid down by JJ.

JJ was too to lazy to give concrete answers to any of the questions raised in TFA. He tries to use this "mystery box" writing style as an excuse, but to me it's just down right laziness.

It's the same style that killed Lost for me. He leaves these loose ends on purpose with no idea how to tie them. Star Wars isn't the kind of franchise to try this experimental bs with.

 

[Limonade]

Taking a page from Joseph Campbell's Hero of the Thousand Faces theory...

I think my problem went all the way back with JJ's interpretation of VII. That was when Rey's status quo ended up being nearly identical as Luke. (Which we've also seen in the Prequels with Anakin... [Are all heroes born in the desert of nowhere?]) In that sense, it felt like Return of the Jedi did nothing to the Empire as it evolved into the First Order. Which in turn, the First Order learned nothing of the Empire's mistakes...

I felt that there should have been a completely new Status Quo for Rey and how she came into her own journey. JJ and Lawrence Kasdan tried to weave some complexities into the series... but in my opinion, they just did it too soon and left too many threads on the table.

 

[TheVileOne]

For me I would also add "the one that will bring balance to the Force" bit. The Jedi were clearly dominate, they had 10K Jedi wandering the galaxy keeping the peace and a Sith had not been seen in a long time. Why would any Jedi think that it was a situation that needed to be balanced? Anyone with even the slightest bit of intelligence could see that the only way things could be balanced between dark and light would be if Anakin were to go bad and help destroy the Jedi. So why on earth does Kenobi think that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith?

Not sure how canon this is, but based on my reading, Anakin as the Chosen One was supposed to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. I don't think destroying the Jedi was a way of bringing balance. I just can't believe or approve of mass genocide as a way of bringing balance.

I think the reason Kenobi thought that is that the prophesy said the chosen one would destroy the Sith, and I guess in the end, that's technically what Anakin did.

EDIT, regarding the Chosen One prophesy:

These are the unredacted passages from The Jedi Path.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One
By the Grand Master Fae Coven

The Jedi archives contain many prophecies. The prophecy of the Chosen One is one of the oldest prophecies of Mortis held in the ancient Holocrons. In the time of great despair, a child shall be born who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force. The chosen one would surely be a vessel of pure energy, someone who was fathered into existence by the midi-chlorians themselves to act as their agent. Such a being would be beyond the authority of the Jedi Council.

Master Sooloot believed the prophecy dated from the First Greath Schism, and that the line about the Sith was added later to refine the original text. Many will wonder whether the prophecy of the Chosen One still applies to modern time. After all, the shape-changing Sith have been extinct for nearly nine hundred years. But beware, the greed of the darkside acts like a cancer on the living force, and the Sith are its chief agents. The prophecy of the chosen one is both simple and seductive. So although the prophecy may be true, the jedi must act as if it is not. Some may think the prophecy elements/entails that the jedi need do nothing to combat evil besides wait for the Chosen One to arrive. This temptation toward laziness should be shunned, for the Order exists to serve others. Responsibility does not lie with a single savior, but with the Jedi Order.

Jedi with the gift of future sight are able to see where a river empties into the ocean no matter what path or turn it may take along the way. All Jedi students able to see should understand that Fulcrum “balance” does not mean that good accepts the existence of evil in the way that sunlight gives rise to shadow. The dark has nothing to do with balance. Balance is a bed of green algae whose numbers are kept in check by bog-gulpers. Balance is the circle of life present in monolith systems.

So if I am reading this correctly, you can't think of balance as good and evil. You have to think of achieving a balance in life as it were. Or rather a presence of too much good doesn't create greater evil. Or eliminating both means balance has been achieved.

 

[Limonade]

Not sure how canon this is, but based on my reading, Anakin as the Chosen One was supposed to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. I don't think destroying the Jedi was a way of bringing balance. I just can't believe or approve of mass genocide as a way of bringing balance.

I think the reason Kenobi thought that is that the prophesy said the chosen one would destroy the Sith, and I guess in the end, that's technically what Anakin did.

EDIT, regarding the Chosen One prophesy:

These are the unredacted passages from The Jedi Path.



So if I am reading this correctly, you can't think of balance as good and evil. You have to think of achieving a balance in life as it were. Or rather a presence of too much good doesn't create greater evil. Or eliminating both means balance has been achieved.

I always thought the dual nature of The Force is similar to that as the Ying and the Yang.

Order cannot exist without Chaos.

Case in point: What happens when there's too much Order? What does a society look like when Order is the law of the land? Should we break from it? Or be subservient to it?

The Star Wars series could have shown what happens when peace ruled the land and Order was brought by the Rebels only to have it take shape in a malevolent form. Until someone who of the Status Quo began to break from this Order and turns to the "dark side" which really is what the society needs to break from it's chain into something beautiful... which is of course: balance. The balance is easily lost when focusing on one side too much.

 

[TheVileOne]

I always thought the dual nature of The Force is similar to that as the Ying and the Yang.

Order cannot exist without Chaos.

Case in point: What happens when there's too much Order? What does a society look like when Order is the law of the land? Should we break from it? Or be subservient to it?

The Star Wars series could have shown what happens when peace ruled the land and Order was brought by the Rebels only to have it take shape in a malevolent form. Until someone who of the Status Quo began to break from this Order and turns to the "dark side" which really is what the society needs to break from it's chain into something beautiful... which is of course: balance. The balance is easily lost when focusing on one side too much.

Except that the dark side is the path to Evil. Chaos in and of itself is not necessarily evil. The natural order of life and death, like nature, is not evil. Animals eating other animals to survive is not evil. But the dark side's pursuit of personal gain due to greed and envy is evil. So having good to counter that evil in an epic struggle, that is not a balance...at least if we are to treat this philosopher's words as factual. It's not about a balance between good and evil. It's a balance of the natural order...I think...

Also, the prophesy apparently didn't add the chosen one defeating the Sith until later to make it more "refined." Here is the prophesy in its original form:

"…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUNS."

 

[Limonade]

Except that the dark side is the path to Evil. Chaos in and of itself is not necessarily evil. The natural order of life and death, like nature, is not evil. Animals eating other animals to survive is not evil. But the dark side's pursuit of personal gain due to greed and envy is evil. So having good to counter that evil in an epic struggle, that is not a balance...at least if we are to treat this philosopher's words as factual. It's not about a balance between good and evil. It's a balance of the natural order...I think...

Also, the prophesy apparently didn't add the chosen one defeating the Sith until later to make it more "refined." Here is the prophesy in its original form:

"…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUNS."

As far as I know. Jedi and Sith are both Orders. They both define what balance means to them. I don't know if there's any Sith scriptures out in the canon. But the Jedi Order seems to see the Sith ways as evil through the acts of it's followers.

It isn't until Luke Skywalker comes in and brings the Sith's greatest warrior Darth Vader into balance, becoming Anakin Skywalker, in which we see that both Orders are misguided in their beliefs.

Of course, this pretty abstract and could be seen another way.