The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

[GarysMyOldman]

Yeah so this whole movie has been bothering me to no end and I came up with what I think is a good fix for some parts of the movie.

For the scene where Rey is being intimidated by Snoke and the whole fight breaks out this is what I would i done and it would of made SO much more sense & tied things together perfectly.

Snoke should of had Rey in this force grip pretty much killing her slowly since he's come to the realization that she won't turn & just before he crushes her Kylo Ren yells out, "Stop! She's my family!" and the grip is released. Rey ends up being Ben Solos sister just like the skywalker brother/sister Leia had 2 children and separated them as they did in the 3rd/4th film.

Ren convinces Snoke he can turn her, she plays along, Ren and Rey disappear and he tries to get her to turn on Snoke w/ him in exchange for turning & she agrees. Just then Snoke enters the room and draws a lightsaber, Ren & Snoke fight until Ren eventually chopped his arm off, Rey force grabs Snokes lightsaber and chops his head off. A scene that calls back to limb-losing characters & I would place this in a similar setting to the Palapatine/Emperor reveal in Episode 3.

They still get to a similar place with now Ren expecting Rey to join the First Order but she expects him to be Jedi Ben Solo and they have their force fight and separate there like in the film.

Next the a Luke Skywalker situation is disrespectful in Ep. 8, so I will also rewrite that.

We meet Luke on the island, Rey hands him the lightsaber. Luke puts the saber on his belt after a moment with it, and tells Rey he knows who she is, he sees her in the force. They go straight to the falcon, Han's dead speech, Falcon needs fixing & Rey needs training, the secret island tribe is strong with the force, there is a dark side force ghost on the island as well. While training Luke, Rey & Chewie go on a mission to meet someone similar to the Canto Bright mission but faster, & also alerting the First Order. Ren arrives to meet them on the island, along with the Knights of Ren the Jedi are all but defeated & Rey is abducted.

Now we're at a place where many questions have been answered from the previous EPISODE & elements of TLJ are still used bc its not ALL bad, its a well made movie but the story is just egregious.

Crystal foxes gotta go, Porgs are fine esp the Chewie BBQ scene, Luke would join the resistance on Crait in real life, take down the AT-ATs and most of the First Order to his own surprise with just the force & laser sword. Ren decends to fight Skywalker, Luke defeats Ren infront of the First Order & Rey. Ren force pulls Reys new lightsaber she receives earlier thats Obi Wan's lightsaber Luke gave to her and Ren slays Luke through the chest like he did his father. Rey fights Ren, she gets him to say his name is Ben Solo & the force again breaks them apart some how.

These little changes would make so much of a difference.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Uh... Huh...

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

It's a disappointing missed opportunity to mix up the political situation just to transform the Resistance into a new Rebellion. I hope Abrams quietly uses a time skip and background material to make the new war more unique, with say, equal numbers on both sides, but a large logistical advantage to the First Order.

I just hope the reason they did all this was not just to get back to what's cool, but rather to make a point about it all, to show history tragically repeating itself, but also showing how the next generation could do something different and learn from the previous Rebellion/Republic's mistakes.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I just hope the reason they did all this was not just to get back to what's cool, but rather to make a point about it all, to show history tragically repeating itself, but also showing how the next generation could do something different and learn from the previous Rebellion/Republic's mistakes.

I would say that is one of the lessons/themes of THIS film. Things "rhyme" with the past but don't play out exactly as they did (Rey's thoughts about how Kylo can become Ben again is an example) and the mistake of idealizing the past, even one's own past, is shown to be folly.

 

[kickass]

Yeah so this whole movie has been bothering me to no end and I came up with what I think is a good fix for some parts of the movie.

For the scene where Rey is being intimidated by Snoke and the whole fight breaks out this is what I would i done and it would of made SO much more sense & tied things together perfectly.

Snoke should of had Rey in this force grip pretty much killing her slowly since he's come to the realization that she won't turn & just before he crushes her Kylo Ren yells out, "Stop! She's my family!" and the grip is released. Rey ends up being Ben Solos sister just like the skywalker brother/sister Leia had 2 children and separated them as they did in the 3rd/4th film.

Ren convinces Snoke he can turn her, she plays along, Ren and Rey disappear and he tries to get her to turn on Snoke w/ him in exchange for turning & she agrees. Just then Snoke enters the room and draws a lightsaber, Ren & Snoke fight until Ren eventually chopped his arm off, Rey force grabs Snokes lightsaber and chops his head off. A scene that calls back to limb-losing characters & I would place this in a similar setting to the Palapatine/Emperor reveal in Episode 3.

They still get to a similar place with now Ren expecting Rey to join the First Order but she expects him to be Jedi Ben Solo and they have their force fight and separate there like in the film.

Next the a Luke Skywalker situation is disrespectful in Ep. 8, so I will also rewrite that.

We meet Luke on the island, Rey hands him the lightsaber. Luke puts the saber on his belt after a moment with it, and tells Rey he knows who she is, he sees her in the force. They go straight to the falcon, Han's dead speech, Falcon needs fixing & Rey needs training, the secret island tribe is strong with the force, there is a dark side force ghost on the island as well. While training Luke, Rey & Chewie go on a mission to meet someone similar to the Canto Bright mission but faster, & also alerting the First Order. Ren arrives to meet them on the island, along with the Knights of Ren the Jedi are all but defeated & Rey is abducted.

Now we're at a place where many questions have been answered from the previous EPISODE & elements of TLJ are still used bc its not ALL bad, its a well made movie but the story is just egregious.

Crystal foxes gotta go, Porgs are fine esp the Chewie BBQ scene, Luke would join the resistance on Crait in real life, take down the AT-ATs and most of the First Order to his own surprise with just the force & laser sword. Ren decends to fight Skywalker, Luke defeats Ren infront of the First Order & Rey. Ren force pulls Reys new lightsaber she receives earlier thats Obi Wan's lightsaber Luke gave to her and Ren slays Luke through the chest like he did his father. Rey fights Ren, she gets him to say his name is Ben Solo & the force again breaks them apart some how.

These little changes would make so much of a difference.

Thank God Rian did what he did lol

 

[Grootster]

This is what happens when you plan a trilogy of movies without actually planning them out. JJ literally 'pitched' SW9 to Lucasfilm today. No plan, no direction, the DCEU method of making Star Wars.

Yeah, this is what I've been saying for a while.

Yes, people will use the excuse that "this is the way the OT did it". The problem is that the OT wasn't all that well-thought-out either. Leia being Luke's sister? That probably wasn't the greatest progression of the story considering we saw them kiss in ESB (and she was pretty clearly the traditional love-interest role in ANH.) Death Star 2?

The difference is that the OT was made back in the 70s and early 80s when Star Wars was still getting off the ground. Before ANH came out, George Lucas wasn't even sure that Star Wars would be a hit. He couldn't plan out the series in advance back then. Lucas had the chance to plan out the prequel trilogy, but he didn't and it turned out terrible.

Now it's 2017, and there's really no good excuse for not planning out these movies in advance. We're not talking about a failing franchise that's running low on budget or a small indie project that's trying to get off the ground. We're talking about Star Wars, which is possibly the biggest and most popular brand ever...and they've managed to completely screw up the chance for a great new trilogy.

(And I'm not saying they have to over-plan it. I'm not even sure I'd want a Star Wars series to be as interconnected and complex as Marvel. Just having a solid storyline planned for this trilogy since day one and tighter control over the directors would be a major improvement.)

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah so this whole movie has been bothering me to no end and I came up with what I think is a good fix for some parts of the movie.

For the scene where Rey is being intimidated by Snoke and the whole fight breaks out this is what I would i done and it would of made SO much more sense & tied things together perfectly.

Snoke should of had Rey in this force grip pretty much killing her slowly since he's come to the realization that she won't turn & just before he crushes her Kylo Ren yells out, "Stop! She's my family!" and the grip is released. Rey ends up being Ben Solos sister just like the skywalker brother/sister Leia had 2 children and separated them as they did in the 3rd/4th film.

Ren convinces Snoke he can turn her, she plays along, Ren and Rey disappear and he tries to get her to turn on Snoke w/ him in exchange for turning & she agrees. Just then Snoke enters the room and draws a lightsaber, Ren & Snoke fight until Ren eventually chopped his arm off, Rey force grabs Snokes lightsaber and chops his head off. A scene that calls back to limb-losing characters & I would place this in a similar setting to the Palapatine/Emperor reveal in Episode 3.

They still get to a similar place with now Ren expecting Rey to join the First Order but she expects him to be Jedi Ben Solo and they have their force fight and separate there like in the film.

Next the a Luke Skywalker situation is disrespectful in Ep. 8, so I will also rewrite that.

We meet Luke on the island, Rey hands him the lightsaber. Luke puts the saber on his belt after a moment with it, and tells Rey he knows who she is, he sees her in the force. They go straight to the falcon, Han's dead speech, Falcon needs fixing & Rey needs training, the secret island tribe is strong with the force, there is a dark side force ghost on the island as well. While training Luke, Rey & Chewie go on a mission to meet someone similar to the Canto Bright mission but faster, & also alerting the First Order. Ren arrives to meet them on the island, along with the Knights of Ren the Jedi are all but defeated & Rey is abducted.

Now we're at a place where many questions have been answered from the previous EPISODE & elements of TLJ are still used bc its not ALL bad, its a well made movie but the story is just egregious.

Crystal foxes gotta go, Porgs are fine esp the Chewie BBQ scene, Luke would join the resistance on Crait in real life, take down the AT-ATs and most of the First Order to his own surprise with just the force & laser sword. Ren decends to fight Skywalker, Luke defeats Ren infront of the First Order & Rey. Ren force pulls Reys new lightsaber she receives earlier thats Obi Wan's lightsaber Luke gave to her and Ren slays Luke through the chest like he did his father. Rey fights Ren, she gets him to say his name is Ben Solo & the force again breaks them apart some how.

These little changes would make so much of a difference.

I am sorry man, but this is very Fan Fic to me. I would have hated it.

 

[I'm Old Greg]

https://youtu.be/BX7tleH0Q9M

 

[CaptainWagner]

Yeah, this is what I've been saying for a while.

Yes, people will use the excuse that "this is the way the OT did it". The problem is that the OT wasn't all that well-thought-out either. Leia being Luke's sister? That probably wasn't the greatest progression of the story considering we saw them kiss in ESB (and she was pretty clearly the traditional love-interest role in ANH.) Death Star 2?

The difference is that the OT was made back in the 70s and early 80s when Star Wars was still getting off the ground. Before ANH came out, George Lucas wasn't even sure that Star Wars would be a hit. He couldn't plan out the series in advance back then. Lucas had the chance to plan out the prequel trilogy, but he didn't and it turned out terrible.

Now it's 2017, and there's really no good excuse for not planning out these movies in advance. We're not talking about a failing franchise that's running low on budget or a small indie project that's trying to get off the ground. We're talking about Star Wars, which is possibly the biggest and most popular brand ever...and they've managed to completely screw up the chance for a great new trilogy.

(And I'm not saying they have to over-plan it. I'm not even sure I'd want a Star Wars series to be as interconnected and complex as Marvel. Just having a solid storyline planned for this trilogy since day one and tighter control over the directors would be a major improvement.)

So your argument is "It doesn't matter what the OT did because the fans turned Star Wars into something completely different from what it was ever meant to be"? I mean, that's accurate to a lot of the reactions I've seen, but I'm not sure it helps the case you're trying to make.

I see so many people saying "This isn't Star Wars", but then demanding things to align with a vision of the OT that is completely separate from what the OT actually was. It was made up as it went along, subverting expectations. It was a lived-in universe that didn't need to explain everything or offer endless backstory to the viewer. Things were simply there because that's how the universe worked. Those are some of the big things that made the OT so special.

 

[Frodo]

At this point, if we're truly going to move on from the past and do things as different as people are praising Johnson for , I don't see why we should continue the saga films after 9 .

Just do one offs and other trilogies unconnected to the Skywalker legacy and each being there own thing. Give Rey her own series of films for example.

If SW is more than the Skywalker's the Solo's etc , then why go back to the format and constraints of the saga films.

Go all the way and as Kylo Ren said "Let the past die" and don't do an episode 10-12 and instead just tell new unrelated SW stories which aren't bound by the constraints of 9 other films and the Skywalker legacy.

With Rouge One, Solo, and Johnson's trilogy it looks like they're dipping their toes in that water anyway, so why not go all the way?

 

[Spider-Fan]

At this point, if we're truly going to move on from the past and do things as different as people are praising Johnson for , I don't see why we should continue the saga films after 9 .

Just do one offs and other trilogies unconnected to the Skywalker legacy and each being there own thing. Give Rey her own series of films for example.

If SW is more than the Skywalker's the Solo's etc , then why go back to the format and constraints of the saga films.

Go all the way and as Kylo Ren said "Let the past die" and don't do an episode 10-12 and instead just tell new unrelated SW stories which aren't bound by the constraints of 9 other films and the Skywalker legacy.

With Rouge One, Solo, and Johnson's trilogy it looks like they're dipping their toes in that water anyway, so why not go all the way?

The answer is easy: Because Star Wars Episode XI sells more tickets than Insert Character: A Star Wars Story.

I think doing one offs are fine, but I also want to see formal trilogies with new characters and not always emphasizing the same things. Like I have been saying, I think we are already are seeing how limited the current Star Wars formula is by how many plot points repeat in the various Saga films, and I think eventually these Star Wars tropes will become boring. The formula will need to change at some point. Why not move toward that now?

 

[BatLobster]

Personally, I still do kind of like the idea of the saga ending. To me there has to be an interconnected-ness to those films, not unlike Harry Potter/LOTR/Game of Thrones, etc. Spread across generations, but still one big story. If you keep making saga films forever, there's never going to be any resolution to the story and I feel like the Star Wars saga is a myth that deserves that finality. Or at the very least, let the finality of Episode IX live with us for a decade or two so it has more meaning if/when they decide to bring it back.

For me, TLJ actually made me want to see the saga end even more, and eager to see brand new ideas like Rian Johnson's trilogy take center stage.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Personally, I still do kind of like the idea of the saga ending. To me there has to be an interconnected-ness to those films, not unlike Harry Potter/LOTR/Game of Thrones, etc. Spread across generations, but still one big story. If you keep making saga films forever, there's never going to be any resolution to the story and I feel like the Star Wars saga is a myth that deserves that finality. Or at the very least, let the finality of Episode IX live with us for a decade or two so it has more meaning if/when they decide to bring it back.

For me, TLJ actually made me want to see the saga end even more, and eager to see brand new ideas like Rian Johnson's trilogy take center stage.

I personally would want the saga to be frozen. I don't want Episode X in like, 6 years. Like you, I like the generational aspect of the Saga, but in like, 15 years from now? Yes, I would want Episode X right around then. But I agree, it should be something that only happens once a generation. Realistically, I don't see Disney doing that. That Episode _ tag sells a lot of tickets. But, I would love it.

 

[Brother Jack]

It's pretty clear to me now that IX will be the end of the Skywalker story. Kylo is the last Skywalker/Solo, and barring some big twist involving Rey, the lineage will likely end with his destruction.

 

[Grootster]

So your argument is "It doesn't matter what the OT did because the fans turned Star Wars into something completely different from what it was ever meant to be"? I mean, that's accurate to a lot of the reactions I've seen, but I'm not sure it helps the case you're trying to make.

I see so many people saying "This isn't Star Wars", but then demanding things to align with a vision of the OT that is completely separate from what the OT actually was. It was made up as it went along, subverting expectations. It was a lived-in universe that didn't need to explain everything or offer endless backstory to the viewer. Things were simply there because that's how the universe worked. Those are some of the big things that made the OT so special.

Oh no, I'm not commenting on whether or not Star Wars should evolve in terms of appeal. I'm simply saying that filmmaking has evolved since the 70s, and these new movies shouldn't necessarily be made the same way.

Star Wars was expected to flop in 1977 before release, Lucas was working on a very limited budget and working in a genre that was generally looked down on by the masses. Star Wars was made as a standalone film because of limitations, he wasn't even sure if a sequel would be made.

Keeping the original appeal of Star Wars is fine, but if the writers of the new trilogy have the chance to plan this trilogy out in advance, why not take that opportunity?

Saying "we want to make these movies as we go because that's what Lucas did in 1977" is like saying "let's not put power windows on modern cars because most beloved classic cars don't have power windows".

 

[Frodo]

The answer is easy: Because Star Wars Episode XI sells more tickets than Insert Character: A Star Wars Story.

I think doing one offs are fine, but I also want to see formal trilogies with new characters and not always emphasizing the same things. Like I have been saying, I think we are already are seeing how limited the current Star Wars formula is by how many plot points repeat in the various Saga films, and I think eventually these Star Wars tropes will become boring. The formula will need to change at some point. Why not move toward that now?

You could still do formal trilogies which aren't saga films , but you're not gonna get anything fresh from episode 10, 11, 12 , 13, 14, infinity worth of saga films.

Disney has to put on their big boy pants and let the saga series end and branch off into new trilogies, which would be spin offs in themselves anyway, and other one shot and spin off films. It'd be kinda doing what they're already doing with Marvel films minus the build up to a team up film.

If Disney can't sell a SW film without it being part 12 or 20 then why bother. If they really want to make this break from the past and do something new, you do that by letting go of the past, not repeating the same format and story beats and expecting a different result.

They can't have their cake and eat it too long term. Sooner or later they're going to have to make a break from trying to please longtime fans of the OT with endless saga films yet trying to up with the demand of taking risks and having creative freedom.

It's not gonna happen. Its either one or the other imo.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

It's pretty clear to me now that IX will be the end of the Skywalker story. Kylo is the last Skywalker/Solo, and barring some big twist involving Rey, the lineage will likely end with his destruction.

Too bad they are replaced with someone that doesn't really have much going for her other than being a copy of Luke. It certainly won't happen but I'd be fine with keeping Kylo/Ben and getting rid of Rey. He at least has had a fresh take on the familiar thing.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You could still do formal trilogies which aren't saga films , but you're not gonna get anything fresh from episode 10, 11, 12 , 13, 14, infinity worth of saga films.

Disney has to put on their big boy pants and let the saga series end and branch off into new trilogies, which would be spin offs in themselves anyway, and other one shot and spin off films. It'd be kinda doing what they're already doing with Marvel films minus the build up to a team up film.

If Disney can't sell a SW film without it being part 12 or 20 then why bother. If they really want to make this break from the past and do something new, you do that by letting go of the past, not repeating the same format and story beats and expecting a different result.

They can't have their cake and eat it too long term. Sooner or later they're going to have to make a break from trying to please longtime fans of the OT with endless saga films yet trying to up with the demand of taking risks and having creative freedom.

It's not gonna happen. Its either one or the other imo.

I agree to a point. I don't want say, Episode X, XI, and XII's saga to begin in like, 2024. Part of what makes the Saga special is the fact it has had long periods between them. It keeps them an event. Making a new Saga trilogy like 3 years once Episode IX ends would start to cheapen that aspect of the saga. Therefore, I want them to do solo things instead. But, in like 2033 or whatever, I would like the Saga to come back so that generation could have their Star Wars Trilogy. I don't think Disney will just retire the Saga, and I don't think they will wait as long as I would want them too (again, those Episode ____ films make huge bank), but it's what I would like to see happen.

 

[Brother Jack]

Too bad they are replaced with someone that doesn't really have much going for her other than being a copy of Luke. It certainly won't happen but I'd be fine with keeping Kylo/Ben and getting rid of Rey. He at least has had a fresh take on the familiar thing.

Rey's motivation (and now we know, her backstory) is the inverse of Luke's. She doesn't want to leave Jakku, whereas Luke wanted nothing more than to leave Tatooine.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Rey's motivation (and now we know, her backstory) is the inverse of Luke's. She doesn't want to leave Jakku, whereas Luke wanted nothing more than to leave Tatooine.

They both strive for their parents. Luke wants to do what he learns that his dead father did Rey thinks her parents are alive so she strives to meet them. Those are negligible differences and it's very clear that, just like TFA in general, they wanted to redo the old stuff.

Kylo is the character that they actually put some effort into making it special.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Oh no, I'm not commenting on whether or not Star Wars should evolve in terms of appeal. I'm simply saying that filmmaking has evolved since the 70s, and these new movies shouldn't necessarily be made the same way.

Star Wars was expected to flop in 1977 before release, Lucas was working on a very limited budget and working in a genre that was generally looked down on by the masses. Star Wars was made as a standalone film because of limitations, he wasn't even sure if a sequel would be made.

Keeping the original appeal of Star Wars is fine, but if the writers of the new trilogy have the chance to plan this trilogy out in advance, why not take that opportunity?

Saying "we want to make these movies as we go because that's what Lucas did in 1977" is like saying "let's not put power windows on modern cars because most beloved classic cars don't have power windows".

I think these movies are more planned then a lot of people think, though. Just because TLJ didn't take what JJ set up in the way people expected doesn't mean that it was a completely disconnected change of plans. We know that Rian was working on TLJ while Abrams was working on TFA. He even had input on the final shot, JJ was going to leave BB-8 with Rey, but Rian said not to do that.

 

[DerekLake]

So your argument is "It doesn't matter what the OT did because the fans turned Star Wars into something completely different from what it was ever meant to be"? I mean, that's accurate to a lot of the reactions I've seen, but I'm not sure it helps the case you're trying to make.

I see so many people saying "This isn't Star Wars", but then demanding things to align with a vision of the OT that is completely separate from what the OT actually was. It was made up as it went along, subverting expectations. It was a lived-in universe that didn't need to explain everything or offer endless backstory to the viewer. Things were simply there because that's how the universe worked. Those are some of the big things that made the OT so special.

I keep seeing this excuse for why TFA and then TLJ left gaping holes in key pieces of the backstory. There are reasons why it works in the OT and it doesn’t in the ST, the chief of which being that the OT actually does explain everything the audience needs to know where the ST doesn’t, and that’s even taking into account that Vader wasn’t Luke’s dad and Leia wasn’t his sister at first. So let’s walk through it:

A New Hope begins by telling us there is a civil war between hidden Rebels and an evil Galactic Empire (i.e., an Empire that controls a galaxy). It tells us why the Rebels are fighting, to restore freedom to the galaxy. That’s our context.

Then, via various points of dialogue (between Leia and Vader, and between Tarkin and Tagge), we learn that there is an Imperial Senate that has enough influence and wields enough power to make Vader want to lie about what happened to Leia’s ship. That tells us that this is not entirely a totalitarian government, but that there is some form of legitimate representation.

Later, through Obi-Wan, we learn that there was a thousand-generation Republic protected by Jedi Knights who guarded peace and justice. We learn that Obi-Wan and Luke’s father once fought for the Republic as Jedi under Leia’s father (and that Obi-Wan held the rank of General). It is strongly implied that Luke’s father was recruited by Obi-Wan to become a Jedi and fight in the Clone Wars. We also learn that Obi-Wan’s pupil, Darth Vader, killed Luke’s father and helped the Empire destroy the Jedi.

We later learn that enough members of the Imperial Senate are supportive of the Rebellion to make Tagge fearful of the “well-equipped” Rebels, who yet operate out of one primary, hidden fortress. We learn soon afterward that the “Emperor” has dissolved that council, replacing bureaucratic rule over the galaxy’s systems with martial law and sweeping away the last remnants of the Old Republic. This tells us that the Empire emerged out of the Republic.

We also later learn that entire star systems have begun to oppose the Emperor as he tightens control.

So by the halfway point of A New Hope, we pretty much know exactly how the Empire came to be, how the Jedi were destroyed, and in a way how the Rebel Alliance came to be. That’s pretty much all we needed to know at that point.

Other things we learn:
1. Princess Leia of Alderaan holds diplomatic rank and runs secret “mercy missions” for the Rebellion.

2. Luke is an orphan and adopted kid who lives with his moisture farmer uncle and aunt, and is also a burgeoning pilot who wants to join the [Imperial] Academy like his friends.

3. Han Solo is a smuggler who owes a large debt to Jabba the Hutt and has been caught by Imperial cruisers several times (despite claiming to outrun them).

So in one film, we pretty much learn everything we need to know about the story, and then we get the remaining pieces (hints to Vader’s turn, a little bit more about Leia’s mother, a bit more about the Emperor’s power over Vader, Vader’s true name, etc.).

The reason the slow trickle works here is because there are more pieces to the story that are added later. This is not the same for The Force Awakens, which sets up too much but refuses to tell us the details.

TFA begins by telling us that the “sinister” First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire in the wake of Luke’s disappearance, and wants to kill the last jedi. It then also tells us that Leia leads a Resistance (presumably against the First Order) with the Republic’s support, and is also looking for Luke to help restore peace and justice (presumably, by defeating the First Order).

We learn that Leia has an old ally who had the missing piece of a map to Luke; from his dialogue, he knew Kylo Ren when he was much younger (and it is implied that he was far abler than he is now), and likely helped keep the map hidden for many years. He claims that the First Order arose from the dark side.

We later learn that Snoke seduced Ben Solo, who destroyed Luke’s Order, that Luke blamed himself and left, possibly to find the first Jedi Temple, and Han left Leia to return to a life of smuggling (and eventually the Falcon was stolen from him). We also learn that Kylo Ren is the master of the “Knights of Ren,” and wants to complete Darth Vader’s legacy by destroying the Jedi. We later learn that Kylo Ren wants to become as powerful in the Force as Vader.

We are also given indications that Snoke, like Palpatine, is a Dark Side user, since he can sense the Force and trained Kylo Ren. He hates the Jedi, which is why he wants to find Luke.

We learn that the First Order has access to the Empire’s archives, has presumably conquered at least a few star systems, and has built a larger version of the Death Star. The Republic, which has a Senate, has a fleet that could challenge the First Order, and enough Senators back the Resistance to keep it going, but it is not as strong as the Rebellion.

We do learn a few things about the other characters. Poe is a Resistance pilot, the best Leia has. Finn is a Stormtrooper, but though he has been with the First Order from birth, he wasn’t programmed to be a Stormtrooper from birth (he was a sanitation worker before being used in combat). Rey is a scavenger whose parents abandoned her and who is now working in a junkyard world. She has some piloting skills and scrappy fighting skills, and the Force. Maz Kanata is a very old Force-sensitive “pirate/smuggler queen” who has seen much of the old conflicts but is not a Jedi. She somehow recovered Anakin’s lightsaber.

I’m sure there are other things I missed from TFA, but that’s enough. We learn about the same or more in TFA than we do in ANH. The difference is that the information we learn in ANH is largely complete, and helps us to understand the setting and story. We learned what the Empire is, how (generally) it came to power, how it defeated the Jedi, how Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke and Leia fit into the story, and what the Rebellion is fighting for. In TFA, the only truly complete and useful information we learn is that Luke and Han ran away after Ben’s betrayal, and that Leia’s Resistance is somewhat backed by the Republic. But the more relevant pieces of information that we don’t learn are 1) who is Snoke and what is the First Order in relation to the Empire (is it an actual remnant or a separately new version), 2) who is Leia’s ally (the film doesn’t even tell us his name onscreen) and how exactly does he fit in with Kylo’s history and Luke’s Order, and 3) how the New Republic came to be so reluctant to fight the First Order. Essentially, we don’t know the necessary information about the First Order, Luke’s aborted Jedi Order, or the New Republic and Resistance.

Of course, the other issue is that TFA also sets up supposedly big mysteries, including Rey’s parentage, that make easily explained minor backstories far more important than they should have been. And there’s also the issue that unlike the OT, this is a sequel trilogy coming off of a seemingly clear ending victory in ROTJ, which means some more explanation of the intervening period is required (including how and why the Republic refused to deal with the First Order). And, finally, TFA is a far more complex story than ANH, meaning, again, more explanation was warranted.

We get a lot of these answers in books and other media, but not in the film, which is the problem. Just note how much time in ANH was used to explain the background, but also how natural that exposition was weaves into the story. TFA could have done the same, if it had spent just a little more time characterizing the conflict with the First Order and the characters’ history between ROTJ and TFA, rather than simply trying to avoid the prequels’ over-exposition and overcomplexity while also introducing unnecessary characters like Maz Kanata (because JJ wanted a vague Yoda-like character in a cantina).

Just a few more lines of dialogue here and there, such as explaining more of the history leading up to the Republic, the Jedi fall, the Resistance and the First Order — something as simple as, “We restored the Republic, and things were peaceful for a time. Luke met other believers in the Force, allies, and began to found a new Jedi Order with their help, but a [insert basic background] named Snoke appeared and seduced Ben, who was Luke’s apprentice, to destroy Luke’s Order. Luke disappeared, and soon afterward, the First Order emerged, led by Snoke and Kylo Ren, to conquered the galaxy. But the Republic has grown weak, so Leia formed the Resistance to hold them off until the Republic would recognize the threat and act.” Even if it were just broad strokes, it would have sufficed. Even showing this, rather than telling it, would have been fine, but that would have required more scenes with the Republic and Leia, slightly more from Lor San Tekka, and perhaps more explanation from Han, Leia, Snoke, Kylo or Hux.

Instead, we got next to nothing to actually fill in the gaps. TLJ could have at least filled in some of these pieces (especially on Snoke and his First Order).

 

[Spider-Fan]

But, even if TESB and ROTJ were never made, ANH stands on its own and the remaining context is not needed. I will agree TFA doesn't fill in the backstory as satisfactorily as ANH does, though. But, TLJ's job was not to establish exposition for events prior to TFA, only the portion that is relevent to TLJ. All the essential backstory should have been provided in TFA, much like ANH did. ANH works as a stand alone movie, TFA does not.

 

[godisawesome]

Just got done rewatching The Force Awakens, and I kind of feel the title of this thread is even more accurate, though not just due to the mystery boxes.

I think TFA is simply a better overall movie with a stronger plot than TLJ.

That's not to say that TLJ is a bad movie; it's a good movie. It's also not to say TFA is a great movie; it has its flaws, and is highly derivative. I'd argue TFA simply has better pacing, more internal consistency, and a better usage of its overall cast, even as a stand alone movie. TLJ does have elements of greatness and a lot of ambition, but has serious flaws in plotting and doesn't really move beyond some of the flaws its predecessor had. And some of those elements seem self-inflicted.

The biggest issue structural-wise with TLJ are the subplots. As others have argued, they may serve to further drive home the "failure is the greatest teacher" theme. But if you're going to do that, than you have to makes sure your subplot don't become redundant, and you have to make sure they're well written. TLJ fails on that front: numerous people have pointed out several inadequacies with the logic and presentation behind the space chase, and Finn's subplot has openly been admitted as one that got chopped up over production. TFA, in contrast, has a very neat and tidy collection of subplots; while they may lack a theme, per se, they do all contribute to the overall narrative and follow logic much better than TLJ.

TFA also succeeds very well at maximizing its ensemble cast and writing characters consistently. I will praise TLJ for its handling of Kylo Ren and Luke as being more ambitious and successful enough to fulfill most god that ambition, but I feel there's issues with the rest. TFA gives us a fantastic new lead duo of Finn and Rey, both of whom have character arcs which, even giving some credit to the Force storyline in TLJ, are somewhat larger and more rewarding in TFA. Han is a treat in TFA, but we see he's still support for the new cast. In contrast, while I think Luke maybe deserved one more shot at the position of protagonist, he does end up kind of demoting a bunch of new characters to do so. Poe and Leia are also more supporting characters in TFA, but again, that's their role. TLJ also struggles a bit with characters like Holdo, who are schizophrenically written in order to pull off Poe's story.

Oddly enough, the First Order is quite a bit more intimidating in TFA than in TLJ, even though we see more of their conventional forces, experience a more lopsided conflict, and have them technically win in TLJ. Now, I will have to admit some of this is likely attributable to me rolling my eyes at the attempt to immediately instate the OT's paradigm of overwhelming evil and miniscule, outmatched heroes... But I do think I can easily argue that element of OT Revanchism is stronger in TLJ than in TFA in regards to the First Order. And more importantly, TFA simply has a more energetic, logical, and competent depiction of the First Order; officers don't waste time smugly chuckling, they get #### done.

Hux doesn't just stand there acting like a cartoon villain; he's actually on point, quick to react, and arguably outperforms both Ren and Phasma in serving the First Order, all while being more terrifying because he seems like a fanatic instead of a comedic weasel. TLJ does give us the wonderful Captain Canady, leading his cool Dreadnaught into battle. But the film's attempt to contrast his professionalism with the other First Order officers exposes the issue; his temperament and activity only contrast in TLJ, and would just be par for the course in TFA. When the Resistance launches an attack on Starkiller Base, we see the First Order mount a solid, if failed defense: Hux immediately deploys all fighters, and it takes a lot of work to actually expose the base's weak spot, showing these guys did learn something from the Empire's idiocy. But in TLJ, everyone's suddenly an idiot. Canady has to launch his own fighters to defend his Dreadnaught, Hux can't see that two fighters almost destroy the Raddus, so go ahead and use the hundreds of fighters you must have to finish the job instead of just following them like idiots, and even though it seems like even an idiot would theorize about a hyperspace ramming tactic, nobody has any preparation for it.

I can totally understand loving TLJ. But I don't think you can argue that it's as consistent as TFA, and that feels like a major issue to me.

 

[chaseter]

This is the dumbest “movement” I’ve read in a while. That’s like me blaming Mercedes for driving too fast and having a wreck. You know what you bought...it’s easy not to wreck your vehicle.