The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[Herolee10]

Johnson was just not able to write anything interesting with what Abrams prepared for him. Snoke wasted, Phasma wasted, Luke totally wasted, Rey wasted... TFA even though being a huge rehash at least felt like a SW movie, no stupid amounts of bathos, it felt genuine. TLJ felt like a bad fan fiction from someone who does not understand what Star Wars are about. And who can't even write a coherent engaging story.

Imho, TLJ works best as a standalone film that takes place in an alternate continuity.

 

[FunkMiller]

The biggest problem with The Last Jedi appears to be that it wasn’t made for a small section of hardcore Star Wars fans with definite ideas of how they think the story and characters should be, but for a larger, more general audience, who don’t have the expectations or emotional attachment.

500 million and counting.

 

[harlequinade]

The biggest problem was that it wasn't entertaining. I don't know SW that well, but I had great time with TFA. Not with this.

People say JJ left Rian a mess? Just look what Rian left JJ.

 

[Consona]

The biggest problem with The Last Jedi appears to be that it wasn’t made for a small section of hardcore Star Wars fans with definite ideas of how they think the story and characters should be, but for a larger, more general audience, who don’t have the expectations or emotional attachment.

500 million and counting.

Stop using money as some kind of proof of... I don't even know what... Transformers made tons of money, so what?

Bathosy Strange, Guardians 2 and Thor 3 made tons of money, so what?

Is it a proof people just want stupid half-assed-written films? Maybe it is.

And even if TLJ was mainly aimed at general audience, the script was horrible nonetheless.

 

[Consona]

The biggest problem was that it wasn't entertaining. I don't know SW that well, but I had great time with TFA. Not with this.

People say JJ left Rian a mess? Just look what Rian left JJ.

JJ left Johnson everything he needed to make a great sequel. Mysterious powerful Snoke, captain Phasma, power craving Hux that does not like Kylo, the Luke fricking Skywalker in that epic cliff cliffhanger scene, the lost and lonely quite a force sensitive girl Rey... He even rehashed Ep. IV so much to make it feel like Star Wars again!!! And people say he left Johnson a mess?

Now it's funny JJ is the Ep. IX writer. Things has come full circle, JJ basically needs to do a new start again. To repair SW again, like what he had to do after the prequels. And this was supposed to be the TESB of the trilogy, the new highlight and it ended up being the new low for the franchise.

 

[Mjölnir]

It's not so much TFA awakens that's the issue. The issue is there was never any overarching plans in place for a trilogy of movies. If you want to make a story about a nobody who rises to become the new face of the Jedi then that's the story you have to start with. Instead we started the trilogy with the hero being wrapped in a mystery box.

Both films on a foundational level work perfectly fine separately, but as an overarching narrative is where they don't work. You can't intentionally leave all these bread crumbs in film one, ask the audience to invest into these clues and then just disregard them as being unimportant in film two. It's basically trolling the audience and leaves everything feeling uneven and disjointed.

Where they go from here is frankly anyone's guess, because all the major questions and challenges that were presented in TFA have been answered with TLJ.

I agree, TLJ really made it apparent that they don't have a strong sense of what the story is and are sort of making it up as they go.

They don't even seem to know to what extent they should carry the legacy of the OT. TFA was basically an ANH remake but while TLJ still copies many scenes and beats off ESB and RotJ it also goes in the other direction and actually just ignores important established things in the OT, making it mesh pretty jarringly.

Nothing was really more sure to work financially than to make a new Star Wars trilogy so they should really have been able to plan the entire thing from the start and laid out all the ground rules.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think I will end up loving both. Its been a couple years on TFA and I adore it more then even when it opened.

TFA has had an opposite effect on me. I still LIKE the movie a lot, but things bother me about it more than when I first saw it. But like I said, I still like the movie. Also, I realized after seeing TLJ, TFA didn't stick with me after watching it the first time like TLJ did, meaning I didn't reflect on the film's themes, moments, etc. nearly as much. Since seeing TLJ, I have thought about the movie a lot. That tells me it will have staying power with me.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This is what happens when you plan a trilogy of movies without actually planning them out. JJ literally 'pitched' SW9 to Lucasfilm today. No plan, no direction, the DCEU method of making Star Wars.

Lucas never had the OT outlined either. He had ideas of where it was going, but never concrete outlines and it shows in the OT at times. As for JJ pitching his movie, let's not forget the elephants in the room: Episode IX lost its director and Carrie Fisher died! Abrams was not originally attached to the project in any capacity creatively, so he basically has to come in fresh and make a whole new story given what happened to Carrie Fisher. That's not a small task, and crafting a story takes time.

 

[The Chris]

Lucas never had the OT outlined either. He had ideas of where it was going, but never concrete outlines and it shows in the OT at times. As for JJ pitching his movie, let's not forget the elephants in the room: Episode IX lost its director and Carrie Fisher died! Abrams was not originally attached to the project in any capacity creatively, so he basically has to come in fresh and make a whole new story given what happened to Carrie Fisher. That's not a small task, and crafting a story takes time.

Like Leia kissing Luke only to find out they're brother and sister in the next one. I can't watch that scene in Empire anymore. It freaks me out.

 

[Orba]

Lucas never had the OT outlined either. He had ideas of where it was going, but never concrete outlines and it shows in the OT at times. As for JJ pitching his movie, let's not forget the elephants in the room: Episode IX lost its director and Carrie Fisher died! Abrams was not originally attached to the project in any capacity creatively, so he basically has to come in fresh and make a whole new story given what happened to Carrie Fisher. That's not a small task, and crafting a story takes time.

Yup, Obi-Wan's death was added during filming, Vader wasn't Luke's dad (Vader was originally just a standard villain's henchman in a cool suit), Leia wasn't Luke's sister (the real sister was someone on the other side of the galaxy). Lucas was making it up as he went. The big thing that started putting me off GL was the revisionism that appeared during the Special Editions where suddenly he had the whole thing planned right from the start. There was nothing wrong with stories evolving as they are being told.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yup, Obi-Wan's death was added during filming, Vader wasn't Luke's dad (Vader was originally just a standard villain's henchman in a cool suit), Leia wasn't Luke's sister (the real sister was someone on the other side of the galaxy). Lucas was making it up as he went. The big thing that started putting me off GL was the revisionism that appeared during the Special Editions where suddenly he had the whole thing planned right from the start. There was nothing wrong with stories evolving as they are being told.

Exactly! Well, until the backstory you evolve involves Jar Jar Binks The OT evolved over time, so will the ST.

On the topic of the evolution of Star Wars, I just have this to say: the OT is my favorite film trilogy ever. Period. I have watched those 3 films countless times, and I watch the entire trilogy multiple times a year. I understand the attachment to them, believe me. But, the OT is never going anywhere. What happens in the PT, as awful as it was, never ruins those movies for me when I watch them. Have I liked everything about the new ST? No, but nothing they really can do will harm the OT to me. It's a different story. Yes it is evolving the even expanding narrative of Star Wars, but I don't think of it in terms of Episodes 1-9 being one story. I think of them as 3 trilogies, and each trilogy is one story. While we see many of the same characters within the series itself, it still is not the same story to me. Each trilogy has its own distinct beginning, middle, and come Episode IX, end. I think it is best to think of it that way.

 

[FunkMiller]

Stop using money as some kind of proof of... I don't even know what... Transformers made tons of money, so what?

Bathosy Strange, Guardians 2 and Thor 3 made tons of money, so what?

Is it a proof people just want stupid half-assed-written films? Maybe it is.

And even if TLJ was mainly aimed at general audience, the script was horrible nonetheless.

Where do I say that making lots of money is proof of quality?

My point is that the great box office, great reviews, and good CinemaScore would seem to indicate that a vast majority are perfectly happy with the movie, and that those who don’t are vastly in the minority... so there’s nothing really ‘wrong’ with the movie that isn’t a subjective dislike based on preconceived notions and ideas. It isn’t a stupid or half-assed movie, any more than the other three you mention in your post. There’s nothing wrong with disliking a film because you’re not happy with the way characters and storylines were handled, but that doesn’t make it a bad movie, just one you don’t like.

I’d take a lot more critiques seriously around here if they didn’t basically default to: “I didn’t like it so it must be sh**!”

 

[Orba]

Exactly! Well, until the backstory you evolve involves Jar Jar Binks The OT evolved over time, so will the ST.

On the topic of the evolution of Star Wars, I just have this to say: the OT is my favorite film trilogy ever. Period. I have watched those 3 films countless times, and I watch the entire trilogy multiple times a year. I understand the attachment to them, believe me. But, the OT is never going anywhere. What happens in the PT, as awful as it was, never ruins those movies for me when I watch them. Have I liked everything about the new ST? No, but nothing they really can do will harm the OT to me. It's a different story. Yes it is evolving the even expanding narrative of Star Wars, but I don't think of it in terms of Episodes 1-9 being one story. I think of them as 3 trilogies, and each trilogy is one story. While we see many of the same characters within the series itself, it still is not the same story to me. Each trilogy has its own distinct beginning, middle, and come Episode IX, end. I think it is best to think of it that way.

Just remembered another big thing when it comes to revisionism. The reason for Darth Vader's suit (and the look of the Storm Trooper uniforms) was that originally the Imperials would have boarded the Rebel blockade runner by space walking between them rather than docking. So originally Vader only wore the suit because he had been in the vacuum of space, the suit wasn't something he needed to wear because of injuries years before. And the suit was something that McQuarrie came up with rather than Lucas.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Where do I say that making lots of money is proof of quality?

My point is that the great box office, great reviews, and good CinemaScore would seem to indicate that a vast majority are perfectly happy with the movie, and that those who don’t are vastly in the minority... so there’s nothing really ‘wrong’ with the movie that isn’t a subjective dislike based on preconceived notions and ideas. It isn’t a stupid or half-assed movie, any more than the other three you mention in your post. There’s nothing wrong with disliking a film because you’re not happy with the way characters and storylines were handled, but that doesn’t make it a bad movie, just one you don’t like.

I’d take a lot more critiques seriously around here if they didn’t basically default to: “I didn’t like it so it must be sh**!”

Exactly! Just saying this film has the same issues as something like BvS doesn't make it so. Why do we give this film a pass but not something like BvS? BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE IT AS THE SAME THING! I get many people are upset, but grand scale hyperbole is not fact. We can argue the film's merit all day, but posters XYZ just saying that everyone is defending it like blind loyalists because it has no merits doesn't make it so.

If you're going to debate the film's merits, present your case for hating it with DETAILS! Don't make generalizations. To many's credit, most are doing this, as are most who liked it. But some on here are just saying "Yada yada yada, BVS people said the same thing!" without offering anything else. That is not an argument, that is Strawman bullcrap.

 

[FunkMiller]

Exactly! Just saying this film has the same issues as something like BvS doesn't make it so. Why do we give this film a pass but not something like BvS? BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE IT AS THE SAME THING! I get many people are upset, but grand scale hyperbole is not fact. We can argue the film's merit all day, but posters XYZ just saying that everyone is defending it like blind loyalists because it has no merits doesn't make it so.

If you're going to debate the film's merits, present your case for hating it with DETAILS! Don't make generalizations. To many's credit, most are doing this, as are most who liked it. But some on here are just saying "Yada yada yada, BVS people said the same thing!" without offering anything else. That is not an argument, that is Strawman bullcrap.

The BvS comparison holds zero water. It’s entirely the other way from what’s happening with TLJ.

TLJ is popular with the audience, reviewed extremely well by critics, is expected to have great box office legs, and is part of the most successful franchise ever. It is also hated by a small but vocal minority.

BvS was deeply unpopular with the audience, reviewed extremely poorly by critics, had terrible box office legs, and is part of a failing franchise. It is also loved by a small but vocal minority.

 

[Consona]

The BvS comparison holds zero water. It’s entirely the other way from what’s happening with TLJ.

TLJ is popular with the audience, reviewed extremely well by critics, is expected to have great box office legs, and is part of the most successful franchise ever. It is also hated by a small but vocal minority.

BvS was deeply unpopular with the audience, reviewed extremely poorly by critics, had terrible box office legs, and is part of a failing franchise. It is also loved by a small but vocal minority.

By the way, TLJ had a bigger 2nd week drop that BvS! So nice armchair theorizing guys...

Plus BvS has bigger RT audience score, if that's something you find important, so again... What are you talking about?

 

[Spider-Fan]

By the way, TLJ had a bigger 2nd week drop that BvS! So nice armchair theorizing guys...

Plus BvS has bigger RT audience score, if that's something you find important, so again... What are you talking about?

It's easier to have a big weekly drop when you made 220 OW

Why don't you actually, ya know, talk about the movie? Instead of bringing up unrelated DC films that have nothing to do with this one. It seems to me it is all you say, which invalidates your opinion to me. Just saying maybe you should bring up actual valid points. Instead of saying movie sucks, BvS, yada yada yada. Okay, why don't you go into REAL details, and not general statements.

 

[Consona]

Exactly! Just saying this film has the same issues as something like BvS doesn't make it so. Why do we give this film a pass but not something like BvS? BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE IT AS THE SAME THING! I get many people are upset, but grand scale hyperbole is not fact. We can argue the film's merit all day, but posters XYZ just saying that everyone is defending it like blind loyalists because it has no merits doesn't make it so.

If you're going to debate the film's merits, present your case for hating it with DETAILS! Don't make generalizations. To many's credit, most are doing this, as are most who liked it. But some on here are just saying "Yada yada yada, BVS people said the same thing!" without offering anything else. That is not an argument, that is Strawman bullcrap.

Quite a lot of people here actually write arguments why they disliked the movie, at least in the discussions I read.

 

[Consona]

Why don't you actually, ya know, talk about the movie? Instead of bringing up unrelated DC films that have nothing to do with this one.

Where did I do that?

It seems to me it is all you say, which invalidates your opinion to me. Just saying maybe you should bring up actual valid points.

Seems you did not read much of what I wrote in this section.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Where did I do that?

This entire thread for starters and it isn't the first one I have seen. I see complaints, but you just make statements. You don't really elaborate.

Example of what I mean is a statement like "This film is not cohesive." Okay, I see you feel that way, can you elaborate on why you feel that way?

 

[Consona]

This entire thread for starters and it isn't the first one I have seen. I see complaints, but you just make statements. You don't really elaborate.

Miller was asking why I liked "subversive" MoS and BvS and did not TLJ, I gave him an answer. You really think it's "bringing up unrelated DC films that have nothing to do with this one." I think it's quite the opposite. It's very much related.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Miller was asking why I liked "subversive" MoS and BvS and did not TLJ, I gave him an answer. You really think it's "bringing up unrelated DC films that have nothing to do with this one." I think it's quite the opposite. It's very much related.

I don't see that particular exchange in this thread from my brief skimming. Was this elsewhere?

Regardless, the BvS reception has not been brought up in other threads (not by you alone). It's a general thing: BvS has nothing to do with this movie.

 

[BatLobster]

JJ left Johnson everything he needed to make a great sequel. Mysterious powerful Snoke, captain Phasma, power craving Hux that does not like Kylo, the Luke fricking Skywalker in that epic cliff cliffhanger scene, the lost and lonely quite a force sensitive girl Rey... He even rehashed Ep. IV so much to make it feel like Star Wars again!!! And people say he left Johnson a mess?

He didn't leave him a mess, but he did kind of leave him a blank slate because everything is so intentionally vague in TFA. It's main prerogative was just making it feel like classic Star Wars again. He could have made Episode VII a movie that chronicled the rise of the First Order and how the peace ends in the galaxy and made it a Kylo/Snoke origin story along the way, but he wanted to jump right into throwing us into the thick of it. An understandable choice after the prequels. Unfortunately it left us with some "elephant in the room" questions, specifically who Rey was. But Rey's parentage was decided by JJ and Kasdan at the time. They told Daisy Ridley who they were on the set of TFA. Johnson had to check to make sure they were on the same page about that.

Even Mr. Mystery Box himself said the whole idea was to get back to that feeling of limitless possibility that people felt when they first saw ANH. They didn't know Vader was Luke's dad. They didn't know who The Emperor was (and that is NOT even addressed at all in the OT!).

If anything, I think Rian Johnson kind of did him a solid by doubling down and focusing on what I suspect they both thought really mattered more ultimately- the characters, and overall themes that were being hinted at in TFA. Let's not forget JJ was reportedly jealous that he wasn't directing VIII because he thought the script was so good. He was an executive producer on the film. He is also choosing to return, fully knowing this "horrible mess" he's inheriting. Clearly he thinks there's a way he can conclude the story that he'll be happy with.

The only reason JJ is left with a "mess" in a sense is that the fans are so divided. They were still crazily divided before TFA anyway, it's just new camps now, and this is still overall a popular franchise with the general audience. Story-wise, he still has endless directions he can go in and a nice open canvas to bring the themes to a close.

 

[DeadStroke]

TFA has had an opposite effect on me. I still LIKE the movie a lot, but things bother me about it more than when I first saw it. But like I said, I still like the movie.

Also, I realized after seeing TLJ, TFA didn't stick with me after watching it the first time like TLJ did, meaning I didn't reflect on the film's themes, moments, etc. nearly as much. Since seeing TLJ, I have thought about the movie a lot. That tells me it will have staying power with me.

Well said.

To be honest I think the best approach is to think of TLJ as the first one and TFA as just a really long prologue