The Last Jedi The Biggest Problem with The Last Jedi is The Force Awakens.

Well said.

To be honest I think the best approach is to think of TLJ as the first one and TFA as just a really long prologue :oldrazz:

Pretty much. I mean, the fact that TLJ picks up immediately after TFA helps support that feeling too. That's a first for a SW film.

In a similar way, I always felt TPM was kind of a prologue to the whole saga.
 
I think the idea that your going to blame the chicken or an egg on this current movies downfall is kind of crazy.

Honestly, for me the worst part of this movie is I feel it has crapped on the entire Skywalker legacy, and doesn't feel like it belongs in episodes 1-9, I do feel like JJ Abrams has a much stronger connection and understands that ultimately the chapters of starwars main story has to do with family, and that family in general being the skywalker family.

I also am not buying they don't have this trilogy planned out, I feel there's some over arcing details that are set in stone (Killing off certain characters) to ensure that the audience has to move on from any remnants of the original.

but as a fan of the OT - the send-offs have been less than satisfactory, starting with the ones in TFA. (the scenes have been good, but to think that is the conclusion of their life and everything they did.)
 
The biggest problem with The Last Jedi appears to be that it wasn’t made for a small section of hardcore Star Wars fans with definite ideas of how they think the story and characters should be, but for a larger, more general audience, who don’t have the expectations or emotional attachment.

500 million and counting.

Yeah ignore the fans who buy the merchandise and read the books. When planning the movies lets just make them for the general audience.

Going forward look at the films like any other popcorn flick. Who cares if you agree with the plot or if it makes sense, just as long as we get action and lazor sword fighting. Why discuss the character arcs or story direction till IX comes out, we shouldn't have attachment or expectations. Just put it in the same group with all the other action flicks that come out, watch it and never have much thought about what you just watched.
 
Yeah ignore the fans who buy the merchandise and read the books. When planning the movies lets just make them for the general audience.

Going forward look at the films like any other popcorn flick. Who cares if you agree with the plot or if it makes sense, just as long as we get action and lazor sword fighting. Why discuss the character arcs or story direction till IX comes out, we shouldn't have attachment or expectations. Just put it in the same group with all the other action flicks that come out, watch it and never have much thought about what you just watched.

That’s exactly what they do, every single time. And they’re right to do it. For any hardcore fans to complain about it screams of massive entitlement.

And I’m not saying you don’t have the right to hate the movie, of course you do, but not everybody thinks it was bad. Sure, it suffers from some story issues, but nothing that ruins the experience. It is a perfectly decent movie that’s well made, well acted, well put together. And popular.

We’re all free to be disappointed that our expectations aren’t matched, but unmatched expectations do not equal ‘terrible movie.’
 
That’s exactly what they do, every single time. And they’re right to do it. For any hardcore fans to complain about it screams of massive entitlement.

And I’m not saying you don’t have the right to hate the movie, of course you do, but not everybody thinks it was bad. Sure, it suffers from some story issues, but nothing that ruins the experience. It is a perfectly decent movie that’s well made, well acted, well put together. And popular.

We’re all free to be disappointed that our expectations aren’t matched, but unmatched expectations do not equal ‘terrible movie.’

I never said completely ignore the casual movie fan, I don't advocate putting in so many Easter Eggs and making the plot so complex you would have to read all the books and comics just to understand what is going on. I didn't go into TLJ with the mindset Snoke is Plageuis or riot, or Luke better be OP or riot. Most of my complaints are plot holes, character development, and how I personally don't feel it matches up with TFA well.

You can also love the movie, you have the right to say it was well made etc. Though I'm not sure you can state it is popular for absolute fact. The reaction feels about 50/50 on liked it, didn't like it as far as fans go. I've read enough comments on other places and here to know this isn't just some hardcore fans who are trolling and had their minds made up to hate the film right from the get go. This is sincere back lash by a large number and to say otherwise, in my opinion is denial.

I would just like to see people refrain from the "fanboy" "entitled" insult when thinking about those who don't agree with you. I'm not on here saying the people who loved it are just a bunch of yes-men who will like anything simply because it says Star Wars on it.
 
Pretty much. I mean, the fact that TLJ picks up immediately after TFA helps support that feeling too. That's a first for a SW film.

In a similar way, I always felt TPM was kind of a prologue to the whole saga.

You're damn right. I feel like once TLJ comes out on home media they would make a rather harmonious single viewing. With TFA acting as the underwhelming first half, TLJ the richer second half. You would stop the video right when TFA ends, before the credits, pop in TLJ, skip the opening crawl, and you've got yourself a single movie. Or better yet, combine the two in your computer for even more seamless an experience.
 
You're damn right. I feel like once TLJ comes out on home media they would make a rather harmonious single viewing. With TFA acting as the underwhelming first half, TLJ the richer second half. You would stop the video right when TFA ends, before the credits, pop in TLJ, skip the opening crawl, and you've got yourself a single movie. Or better yet, combine the two in your computer for even more seamless an experience.

Can't wait for the youtube or vimeo cut to hit online. :woot:
 
I wish TFA had set The First Order up better. Who are these people? Do they have supporters throughout the new Republic? Where did they get the money required to build the Starkiller? Did the new Republic even realize this massive threat was building up against them in the Outer Rim? If not, why not? How did they take over the galaxy after blowing up the Senate? Did they encounter any localized resistance? TLJ didn't have time to answer these questions. It should've been done by TFA.
 
I wish TFA had set The First Order up better. Who are these people? Do they have supporters throughout the new Republic? Where did they get the money required to build the Starkiller? Did the new Republic even realize this massive threat was building up against them in the Outer Rim? If not, why not? How did they take over the galaxy after blowing up the Senate? Did they encounter any localized resistance? TLJ didn't have time to answer these questions. It should've been done by TFA.

Yup, I agree. It was clear JJ wanted to hit the ground running and not get bogged down with the political backstory too much (ie remind anyone of the prequels).

I mean we basically have most of the answers in novels and stuff now, but it's part of what made TFA feel like a reboot.
 
The difference between the new trilogy and the previous trilogies is the lack of a single creative vision. George Lucas created this universe (with plenty of outside influence, obviously, but he was always strongly involved) and now he's gone and we have two movies each made by two completely separate people with different creative visions. So there's a feeling of creative whiplash that is very jarring.

I still think is very possible for Ep 9 to tie everything together in a way that feels cohesive, though, since J.J. Abrams will be returning as director and I feel like his creative vision was closer to George Lucas's (perhaps even too close, but now TLJ will force him to branch out and explore new concepts rather than retreading old ones from the OT). I'd be a lot more worried if Ep 9 was being handed off to yet another brand new director.
 
Not every director gets an opportunity to reboot the same franchise twice.
 
The difference between the new trilogy and the previous trilogies is the lack of a single creative vision. George Lucas created this universe (with plenty of outside influence, obviously, but he was always strongly involved) and now he's gone and we have two movies each made by two completely separate people with different creative visions. So there's a feeling of creative whiplash that is very jarring.

I still think is very possible for Ep 9 to tie everything together in a way that feels cohesive, though, since J.J. Abrams will be returning as director and I feel like his creative vision was closer to George Lucas's (perhaps even too close, but now TLJ will force him to branch out and explore new concepts rather than retreading old ones from the OT). I'd be a lot more worried if Ep 9 was being handed off to yet another brand new director.

Every Star Wars Film has to be signed off by Kathleen Kennedy and the higher ups at Disney. It’s not like Rian Johnson held everybody hostage in his trailer until the film was released HIS WAY.

And there is nothing in TLJ that doesn’t follow on logically from what they set up in TFA.
 
Every Star Wars Film has to be signed off by Kathleen Kennedy and the higher ups at Disney. It’s not like Rian Johnson held everybody hostage in his trailer until the film was released HIS WAY.

And there is nothing in TLJ that doesn’t follow on logically from what they set up in TFA.

No, it is not logical (or more accurately, indicative of a single creative vision) to set up numerous questions and unanswered plot threads only to say "jk those things aren't important". Based on what J.J. Abrams has said it seems like he approves of the direction Johnson went in, but I'm certain it was not his original intention at all.

Also, Rian Johnson outright said that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted, so we know he was able to exercise his own creative vision uninhibited. The higher ups obviously would have signed off on it but that doesn't mean they made any changes or had any creative influence on his story.
 
Johnson was just not able to write anything interesting with what Abrams prepared for him. Snoke wasted, Phasma wasted, Luke totally wasted, Rey wasted... TFA even though being a huge rehash at least felt like a SW movie, no stupid amounts of bathos, it felt genuine. TLJ felt like a bad fan fiction from someone who does not understand what Star Wars are about. And who can't even write a coherent engaging story.

Snoke is easily the cheesiest villain the Star Wars film saga has delivered. His dialogue was hilarious. He looked like Play-Dough. But not as hilarious as the goofy red samurai armor guy with the paper clip helmet. That took the cake.
 
Snoke is easily the cheesiest villain the Star Wars film saga has delivered. His dialogue was hilarious. He looked like Play-Dough. But not as hilarious as the goofy red samurai armor guy with the paper clip helmet. That took the cake.

Yea, you mean these dumb plastic toy design nonsenses. Will the amount of stupid in this movie ever end?

P81vLy6.jpg
 
Where do I say that making lots of money is proof of quality?

My point is that the great box office, great reviews, and good CinemaScore would seem to indicate that a vast majority are perfectly happy with the movie, and that those who don’t are vastly in the minority... so there’s nothing really ‘wrong’ with the movie that isn’t a subjective dislike based on preconceived notions and ideas. It isn’t a stupid or half-assed movie, any more than the other three you mention in your post. There’s nothing wrong with disliking a film because you’re not happy with the way characters and storylines were handled, but that doesn’t make it a bad movie, just one you don’t like.

I’d take a lot more critiques seriously around here if they didn’t basically default to: “I didn’t like it so it must be sh**!”

Like the 55% audience approval rating on RT? Oh, it's down to 54%.

Loads of mixed reviews on IMDb. This movie isn't the crowd-pleaser you think it is. Tasty VFX don't always compensate for two mediocre acts and a splendid third act. I could have gone and taken a dump in the second act and not missed a thing.
 
No, it is not logical (or more accurately, indicative of a single creative vision) to set up numerous questions and unanswered plot threads only to say "jk those things aren't important". Based on what J.J. Abrams has said it seems like he approves of the direction Johnson went in, but I'm certain it was not his original intention at all.

Also, Rian Johnson outright said that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted, so we know he was able to exercise his own creative vision uninhibited. The higher ups obviously would have signed off on it but that doesn't mean they made any changes or had any creative influence on his story.

You got answers. You just didn’t like them.

You think the higher ups wouldn’t have changed any aspect of Johnson’s writing, if they weren’t happy it sat with the kind of vision they had for the series?
 
Like the 55% audience approval rating on RT? Oh, it's down to 54%.

Loads of mixed reviews on IMDb. This movie isn't the crowd-pleaser you think it is. Tasty VFX don't always compensate for two mediocre acts and a splendid third act. I could have gone and taken a dump in the second act and not missed a thing.

You might want to have a look at all the articles that have popped up in the past couple of days about how the RT audience score has been heavily skewed by sad little fanboys.

Also take a look at the CinemaScore.
 
You got answers. You just didn’t like them.

You think the higher ups wouldn’t have changed any aspect of Johnson’s writing, if they weren’t happy it sat with the kind of vision they had for the series?

The higher-ups have to be responsible for that stupid sojourn Rose and Finn took to the one planet with the giraffe-steeds through what must surely be a Star Trek-styled trans-temporal warp.

I can't imagine Johnson came up with that nonsense. If he did...that's appalling.
 
You might want to have a look at all the articles that have popped up in the past couple of days about how the RT audience score has been heavily skewed by sad little fanboys.

Nice try. Authenticity verified.

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