BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 1

[Boom]

And watching some clips of the UC, I'm this close to throwing in the towel on Cavill. It may not entirely be his fault, but he's just not doing it for me outside of looking like the character.

 

[KillerWolf]

Again... TDKT pretty much renders this argument null and void.

While I do get where you're coming from with this, I wouldn't say that TDKT can be really compared to BvS in that manner, as none of those films had this somber, heavily dramatic, almost Shakespearian approach that BvS has. BB was a pretty straight action film, TDK was a thriller that was rather "dark" for a mainstream CBM and TDKR was in fact often criticized for its slow pace and lack of Batman in action in the first half of the film. I don't like TDKR much, but my problems with it lay elsewhere.

I'd say that only real comparison is in the fact that both TDKT and MOS and BvS share the same bildungsroman structure, being primarily a character study, and that they tend to be more serious than your usual CBM blockbuster, but other than that I don't see much similarity between those films.

Times are scary and people in general don't like to be reminded, especially by a character who in the past was a shining beacon of hope and safety.

MOS and BvS are leading up to that rendition but up til now have been somber reminders of the human condition. Most people don't like their faces rubbed in it.

BvS ASKS questions and does not give concrete positive answers. Nolans films did too but that was THE DARK KNIGHT and was more acceptable.

Superman is expected to be LIGHT and LITE. Snyder's portrayal is unexpected and unwelcome by most.

I reckon it just doesn't go in line with the escapism people tend to expect from blockbusters.

As for TDK, I'd say that Nolan also knew how to pander to the audience and balance out some of the uglier truths more... the film redeemed its presumed darkness by what was to me one of the most nonsensical scenes in the recent history of cinematography - the notorious ferry scene where those passengers behaved in a way people just don't behave in such situation. It is to this day ridiculous to me whenever I watch the film, but I kinda get it why it was done that way and I'm willing to bet that Nolan was well aware what he was doing when he made it. It was more of a case of such scene being needed at that part of the film than it being realistic and making sense.

 

[Erzengel]

So, instead of comparing it to films that got the SAME, or similar scores, you've exclusively cherry picked only those BELOW BvS for comparison?

I'm not saying the company will be exclusively shining examples, but it would be FAR more honest to compare to other films that received the SAME score, or at least in the same RANGE. Not just exclusively BELOW it.

So, let's compare to other CB films that were in the 3-4 range for RT score, and 6-8/10 on Metacritic and IMDB.

THAT would be the appropriate comparison. I don't have those comparisons though, and I don't know hoe much better they will look, if at all. Just saying they would be the way to compare WITHOUT being disingenuous.

Here's the thing. TDK considered to be one of if not the top CBM of all time.

RT: 4.4/5
Metacrtic: 8.9
IMDB: 9.0

Now look at BvS

RT: 3.6/5
Metacritic: 7.0
IMDB: 7.0

If you just look it at it like that, you'd would say, hey it's a pretty decent score.

Now let's look at GL

RT: 3.1/5
Metacrtic: 6.0
IMDB: 5.6

It's like using Cinemascore, where someone who wouldn't know better would say "Hey BvS got a B." That's good. Until you realize that Green Lantern also got a B. I don't necessarily think BvS is the same as GL but it seems to be rated closer to GL than it is to TDK.

 

[gdw]

Seriousness isn't the problem. Dreariness is. I speak only for myself. I found these characters dull. I did not engage with these characters and found them lifeless thus giving off a tone that is susceptible to criticism.

Absolutely, and that's a fully valid, personal critique.
The UC is starting to sound like that's almost the ONLY valid criticism left from the critics original reactions.

For me, I find that tone still works int he film. I did not need (that much) more uplifting moments to improve the film for me, and it sounds like the UC does touch on a few of these moments.

While I am looking forward to when we can, and DO get to see Superman really shine in these regards, I do not know if THIS film would have been the best for them. At least not in what they set up, and the themes they wanted to explore for Clark.
Maybe they could have, but I found it worked as they did it, and when he returns, that will be the time for more hope and optimism.

When he returns, I think the world will finally have "accepted" him, or at least he will have accepted his acceptance, and he can be less affected by the detractors. More standing as a shining example despite them, rather than focusing on them, and letting them bring him down.

I look forward to finally getting this Superman, and to these films EARNING that Superman. At least that's where I'm hoping things are going with the JL films, and, an eventual solo Superman followup.

 

[I Am The Knight]

And watching some clips of the UC, I'm this close to throwing in the towel on Cavill. It may not entirely be his fault, but he's just not doing it for me outside of looking like the character.

I don't think he's a great actor or anything (I have only seen him in these DCEU films) but I'm pretty sure it's the direction and the way the character is written. Under a different vision I think he could have been this generation's Superman. He has the looks and the charm as evident in his interviews. He is more Superman in real life than in the films

 

[STARMAN]

In response to GDW, I respect that and am glad there are those who find enjoyment in either the TC or UC. I'm just not one of them.

 

[OutOfBoose]

What's the point in comparing it to anything? The film got a reputation of The Phantom Menace (Jar-Jar Binks included) and it will stay that way. UE will make more people defend the film, but it won't be enough. Again, since it's a shared universe film, future films can retro-actively change perception of it, along with UE. So it will be really interesting to see how the movie fits into a bigger picture 5-10 years later.

 

[gdw]

A thousand times this. It goes back to what I said in a previous post: the story was silly, the characters weren't engaging, so a lighter tone would have at least made the experience more palatable.




It wouldn't have been received that differently. There's obviously no way to know for sure, I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd bet my bottom dollar on it.

TDKT were all good to great movies and would be praised no matter what context they were released in. BvS, on the other hand, is not a good movie would not have been praised no matter what context it was released in.

I think the focus would have been VERY much on how they were NOT following the example Marvel was setting. ESPECIALLY considering how much Nolan's Bat films were adamantly in their own world, with no other heroes.
Hell, they already WERE being criticized for that back then, it would have been that much WORSE today. The tone would likely also be lumped into this criticism, despite the fact that it works very much for those films.

Just look at how much of the focus of the BvS criticism was comparing to the Marvel mold.

They would still be recognized as good, and great, films ultimately, I believe that. That doesn't mean the reception would have been remotely the same though.

The BvS TC was a mess in a lot of ways. Had the UC been what was actually released, then tone, and comparison to Marvel, would have been the main focus of "criticism," just like it probably would be were Begins released post Avengers and the MCU.

Well, maybe not just Begins, as, unless Nolan was being just as explicit in person, you could assume they could still introduce other heroes. But the tone being so dramatically different in approach, that would absolutely been a focus.

 

[gdw]

Here's the thing. TDK considered to be one of if not the top CBM of all time.

RT: 4.4/5
Metacrtic: 8.9
IMDB: 9.0

Now look at BvS

RT: 3.6/5
Metacritic: 7.0
IMDB: 7.0

If you just look it at it like that, you'd would say, hey it's a pretty decent score.

Now let's look at GL

RT: 3.1/5
Metacrtic: 6.0
IMDB: 5.6

It's like using Cinemascore, where someone who wouldn't know better would say "Hey BvS got a B." That's good. Until you realize that Green Lantern also got a B. I don't necessarily think BvS is the same as GL but it seems to be rated closer to GL than it is to TDK.

Now you're just doing the exact opposite, cherry picking in the OTHER direction.

I said compare to SIMILAR ratings, 3-4, 6-8. GL still, mostly, falls in that range. TDK is far OUTSIDE that range. Comparing BvS, on that level, to TDK, is ALMOST as ludicrous as comparing it to Batman and Robin.

 

[gdw]

In response to GDW, I respect that and am glad there are those who find enjoyment in either the TC or UC. I'm just not one of them.

 

[Erzengel]

But that's the thing. 3.6 to even 3.8 or even 7.0 to 7.2 is almost like the Cinemascores of a B to an B+.

 

[gdw]

What's the point in comparing it to anything? The film got a reputation of The Phantom Menace (Jar-Jar Binks included) and it will stay that way. . .

No, YOU view this film on that level. It's general reputation is far removed from that.

I'd say it's MUCH closer to Iron Man 3, in terms of reputation and divided reception.

 

[idiot09]

I actually do feel that you can adequately criticize a movie for it's tone if it isn't earned; in this case, the movie was overtly dour and serious when it had no reason to be.

Okay thats a very valid criticism,and you are entitled to that.I however disagree.Now I would perfectly understand if you dont wish to respond to this,because I believe this topic has already been debated to death.HoweverI'll just tell you how I felt about these characters and the seriousness of the movie.

MOS was Clark's origin story.We saw him saving people,multiple times in the film.One would argue thats all he did throughout the movie.He was hopeful.He was happy..He was smiling,however he was lost and rudderless.Then Zod came,and he was forced to become Superman,as Jor-El inspired him to become "an ideal of hope".Then we see "Mankind being introduced to The Superman".And here we see the world being divided over this alien,who some view as a god,while others view as a threat.

Lex Luthor tries to set the whole world against him(and in the UC you will see to what length he goes I wont say any further) ,and succeeds.This makes Clark sad,as he is just a guy trying to do the right thing.Throughout this film we see Clark at the lowest point in his life,where people are bashing and hating on him,for something he is not,whatever he does,he is criticised.This is Clark's worst moments in life.I felt the sad tone,was justified here.

Bruce Wayne after losing so many people in his life(parents,"son",many other allies) is a world weary figure.He is on the brink of losing it,when this Superman figure drops from the sky and levels a city.Suddenly his 20years worth of crimefighting seems meaningless to him.He takes it upon himself to save the world from this danger(again under Lex's manipulation).This is a Batman who has nearly lost all his morals.Again here,I thought the sad tone was justified.

As you can see,this movie tried to show us these two characters at the very worst moments of their life,at their points of moral bankruptcy.I think therefore the tone was justified.

However my favourite part(and if it was not there I would have hated it) was the fact both heroes go through this "cleansing " at the end of the film.Superman finally accepts the world as his own("this is my world",smiles to Lois,and sacrifices his life for humanity that had rejected him.Bruce understands how good Clark is as a human being,feels ashamed(this is touched on in the UC) and tries to set it right("I failed him in life.I wont fail him in death").He chooses not to brand Luthor.And the film really ends on a positive note as we see the dirt rising.

Thats how I saw it,thats why I thought the serious tone was justified throughout the movie,and I loved that the film ended on a hopeful way,which also signifies("its always darker before the dawn","dawn of justice") how Justice League is going to be a much lighter,more hopeful film(confirmed by Terrio).

Nice discussion.

 

[gdw]

But that's the thing. 3.6 to even 3.8 or even 7.0 to 7.2 is almost like the Cinemascores of a B to an B+.

I do not know what you're point is, sorry.

These numbers are no where NEAR the ones you were just using for comparison. These numbers are FAR more in line with what I was SAYING you should be looking at.

Not TDK with scores of RT: 4.4/5, Metacrtic: 8.9, and IMDB: 9.0.

 

[idiot09]

Absolutely, and that's a fully valid, personal critique.
The UC is starting to sound like that's almost the ONLY valid criticism left from the critics original reactions.

For me, I find that tone still works int he film. I did not need (that much) more uplifting moments to improve the film for me, and it sounds like the UC does touch on a few of these moments.

While I am looking forward to when we can, and DO get to see Superman really shine in these regards, I do not know if THIS film would have been the best for them. At least not in what they set up, and the themes they wanted to explore for Clark.
Maybe they could have, but I found it worked as they did it, and when he returns, that will be the time for more hope and optimism.

When he returns, I think the world will finally have "accepted" him, or at least he will have accepted his acceptance, and he can be less affected by the detractors. More standing as a shining example despite them, rather than focusing on them, and letting them bring him down.

I look forward to finally getting this Superman, and to these films EARNING that Superman. At least that's where I'm hoping things are going with the JL films, and, an eventual solo Superman followup.

Also lets not forget in MOS,throughtout the film literally all Clark does is save people.Its not as if this Superman does not care.Also we do see Superman doing Superman things in the UC(without spoiling anything).This film just showed Clark at the lowest in his life.Also I do agree JL will show us the true Superman(Henry Cavill confirmed it too,saying through MOS-BvS-JL is basically Superman's arc to becoming the true Superman.

 

[souperman]

While I do get where you're coming from with this, I wouldn't say that TDKT can be really compared to BvS in that manner, as none of those films had this somber, heavily dramatic, almost Shakespearian approach that BvS has. BB was a pretty straight action film, TDK was a thriller that was rather "dark" for a mainstream CBM and TDKR was in fact often criticized for its slow pace and lack of Batman in action in the first half of the film. I don't like TDKR much, but my problems with it lay elsewhere.

I'd say that only real comparison is in the fact that both TDKT and MOS and BvS share the same bildungsroman structure, being primarily a character study, and that they tend to be more serious than your usual CBM blockbuster, but other than that I don't see much similarity between those films.




I reckon it just doesn't go in line with the escapism people tend to expect from blockbusters.

As for TDK, I'd say that Nolan also knew how to pander to the audience and balance out some of the uglier truths more... the film redeemed its presumed darkness by what was to me one of the most nonsensical scenes in the recent history of cinematography - the notorious ferry scene where those passengers behaved in a way people just don't behave in such situation. It is to this day ridiculous to me whenever I watch the film, but I kinda get it why it was done that way and I'm willing to bet that Nolan was well aware what he was doing when he made it. It was more of a case of such scene being needed at that part of the film than it being realistic and making sense.

I think one reason the Nolan Batman did so well is because of the preceding Batman films. There was a lot of build up/marketing with various versions so the audience was primed for more. The ones directly before got very campy and more "kid"-centric and comic-booky so when Nolan came along with a more "realistic" version, the audience had grown up and was ready to see a more gritty version. They had grown into the Nolanverse. It was good timing IMO.

 

[gdw]

Okay thats a very valid criticism,and you are entitled to that.I however disagree.Now I would perfectly understand if you dont wish to respond to this,because I believe this topic has already been debated to death.HoweverI'll just tell you how I felt about these characters and the seriousness of the movie.

MOS was Clark's origin story.We saw him saving people,multiple times in the film.One would argue thats all he did throughout the movie.He was hopeful.He was happy..He was smiling,however he was lost and rudderless.Then Zod came,and he was forced to become Superman,as Jor-El inspired him to become "an ideal of hope".Then we see "Mankind being introduced to The Superman".And here we see the world being divided over this alien,who some view as a god,while others view as a threat.

Lex Luthor tries to set the whole world against him(and in the UC you will see to what length he goes I wont say any further) ,and succeeds.This makes Clark sad,as he is just a guy trying to do the right thing.Throughout this film we see Clark at the lowest point in his life,where people are bashing and hating on him,for something he is not,whatever he does,he is criticised.This is Clark's worst moments in life.I felt the sad tone,was justified here.

Bruce Wayne after losing so many people in his life(parents,"son",many other allies) is a world weary figure.He is on the brink of losing it,when this Superman figure drops from the sky and levels a city.Suddenly his 20years worth of crimefighting seems meaningless to him.He takes it upon himself to save the world from this danger(again under Lex's manipulation).This is a Batman who has nearly lost all his morals.Again here,I thought the sad tone was justified.

As you can see,this movie tried to show us these two characters at the very worst moments of their life,at their points of moral bankruptcy.I think therefore the tone was justified.

However my favourite part(and if it was not there I would have hated it) was the fact both heroes go through this "cleansing " at the end of the film.Superman finally accepts the world as his own("this is my world",smiles to Lois,and sacrifices his life for humanity that had rejected him.Bruce understands how good Clark is as a human being,feels ashamed(this is touched on in the UC) and tries to set it right("I failed him in life.I wont fail him in death").He chooses not to brand Luthor.And the film really ends on a positive note as we see the dirt rising.

Thats how I saw it,thats why I thought the serious tone was justified throughout the movie,and I loved that the film ended on a hopeful way,which also signifies("its always darker before the dawn","dawn of justice") how Justice League is going to be a much lighter,more hopeful film(confirmed by Terrio).

Nice discussion.

With the exception of the fact that Clark was HARDLY "happy" and "hopeful" in MOS.
Maybe more so than we see in BvS, but I don't think anyone else would consider that to be an apt description of the general mood and attitude of Clark on MOS.

 

[OutOfBoose]

No, YOU view this film on that level. It's general reputation is far removed from that.

I'd say it's MUCH closer to Iron Man 3, in terms of reputation and divided reception.

I actually love this film. But critic reception won't go anywhere. It left many fans disappointed for whatever reason. But critics and fans are most vocal, so they will be establishing the aura, that surrounds the movie in coming years. I mean, I bet Phantom Menace wasn't hated by GA as much as it's being hated by Star Wars fans, but there you go.

 

[gdw]

I actually love this film. But critic reception won't go anywhere.

Critic reception can change a LOT over time. Many of the greatest films in history were panned when released.

Not that BvS is on the level of Citizen Cain, et al, but the critical reception is definitely NOT anywhere near TPM and Jar Jar.

 

[Erzengel]

I do not know what you're point is, sorry.

These numbers are no where NEAR the ones you were just using for comparison. These numbers are FAR more in line with what I was SAYING you should be looking at.

Not TDK with scores of RT: 4.4/5, Metacrtic: 8.9, and IMDB: 9.0.

You essentially want the comparison in the ranges of a 3-4 for RT? Or a 7-8 for metacritic or IMDB?

My point is that a 3.6 for BvS shouldn't be seen as "within" the ballpark for say Ant-Man or X-Men: First Class that got 4.0. Especially when Wolverine Origins or TASM2 got a 3.6 and are seen as the lower tier of CBM.

 

[KillerWolf]

I think one reason the Nolan Batman did so well is because of the preceding Batman films. There was a lot of build up/marketing with various versions so the audience was primed for more. The ones directly before got very campy and more "kid"-centric and comic-booky so when Nolan came along with a more "realistic" version, the audience had grown up and was ready to see a more gritty version. They had grown into the Nolanverse. It was good timing IMO.

Oh this too, for sure. All the pieces just fell together.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Critic reception can change a LOT over time. Many of the greatest films in history were panned when released.

The only way I can see BvS's reputation grow - DCEU finds success. OR, CBM genre gets so plagued by similar CW-TA-AoU type films, so people will go nostalgic like "remember the time when CBM took risks?"...

 

[The Joker]

BvS didn't take any risks. It was just a poorly made movie.

 

[idiot09]

With the exception of the fact that Clark was HARDLY "happy" and "hopeful" in MOS.
Maybe more so than we see in BvS, but I don't think anyone else would consider that to be an apt description of the general mood and attitude of Clark on MOS.

Fair enough.I loved the scenes Clark shared with Ma Kent.He was smiling,and happy and it felt so right.I also loved the interrogation scene with him and Lois.He just seems so Superman in this.

These are the two scenes I had in mind,when I said it

[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7clp3s-15I[/YT]

[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VFCfx_rKbI[/YT]

Just take a look at them,it will make your day better

 

[OutOfBoose]

BvS didn't take any risks. It was just a poorly made movie.

Sure. That's why you complain to no end how Batman kills in this film (and it was a deliberate choice, not some accident everyone pretends didn't happen Nolan-style). Or that Superman is killed in the second film of DCEU. Even pitting Batman against Superman in a deadly duel was a huge risk and many doubted it from the very start.