BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 1

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They're taking the Craig James Bond approach. Each film is a new origin story. :woot:

Do you view the Craig - Bond's as all origin stories or just being funny?

They are an interconnected ongoing story as far as I can tell.
 
That's fine as your opinion. Some are enjoying the agonizing wait !:cwink:

Your issue is simply as you stated. You are waiting to see what you want rather than enjoying to twists and turns of the journey. Guess you prefer trains or planes but some of us like roadsters driving the winding road.

What do you have better to do?... besides sticking around here talking to us? :sly:

You realise financially WB can't afford to be stringing audience along right?
 
You realise financially WB can't afford to be stringing audience along right?

That's their problem...unless you own stock.

We as an audience don't need to concern ourselves with that. Our job is to view the product.

I don't care how the hot dogs are made.


...and besides, they didn't loose money.

On most films they are happy to break even after costs...at least that's what they tell the shareholders.
 
I've got no problem with a character having to fight against the darkness, but I don't think what's happened with this Superman is him having to fight against darkness, it's him being the darkness. It's the shadow that is hovering over him questioning whether he's actually of any value. I don't feel like in two films we've been given a positive answer as to why the world needs a Superman. I've got no issue putting Superman through tests, but I do have issues of not really addressing in detail what's actually good about the character.

As I said before, if you want to bring who he is as a person into question that's very valid, I don't even have a problem with him asking questions of himself, but at the end of the day you have to stop asking those questions and start answering them positively. "Yes, we need a Superman. Yes I'm determined to do this no matter what", that's what matters in the end. If the argument is that we'll get that Superman eventually in the end my rebuttal is I, and many others, are not going to stick around waiting on the basis we'll get there eventually. A long journey does not make a good one. No-one should have to sit through 9 hours of movie just to get something resembling that character, something that could easily have been completed in one movie. This is not television, this is not netflix, it's film, and the vast majority of people want a complete story and complete character journey in one sitting.
Right, WB is letting Superman's God-like qualities bring a seriousness to their modern Superman films that's so heavy, nothing they can do within that idea can make him inspiring.

I don't think it's useful to have Superman answer the question "Do we need a Superman?" because it invites so many parallels to religion and more God-like questions. And it's honestly just not his place to do it. But what Superman can do is be like, "Hey everyone, I'm here, I will do what is right, and nobody can change my mind about it." Then people will have no choice but to circle around him, inspiring faith and trust in good because there doesn't need to be an answer to that question. He can just be himself, that's all.
 
Right, WB is letting Superman's God-like qualities bring a seriousness to their modern Superman films that's so heavy, nothing they can do within that idea can make him inspiring.

I don't think it's useful to have Superman answer the question "Do we need a Superman?" because it invites so many parallels to religion and more God-like questions. And it's honestly just not his place to do it. But what Superman can do is be like, "Hey everyone, I'm here, I will do what is right, and nobody can change my mind about it." Then people will have no choice but to circle around him, inspiring faith and trust in good because there doesn't need to be an answer to that question. He can just be himself, that's all.


I agree ad don't think he could because he has bags of humility.:cwink:

I think after the sacrifice, people will rally to his side and "trust" him. They will know that he has the best intentions and give him the benefit of doubt even if bad things happen. I don't think people will now blame Superman for collateral damage knowing that he is doing his best to minimize it and save the world...again.
 
Do you view the Craig - Bond's as all origin stories or just being funny?

They are an interconnected ongoing story as far as I can tell.

They're the longest origin story I've ever seen.
 
Here's the issue. Superman has always been a romanticised character, he's the best possible version of who we are as a species, despite not being one of us and like it or not that's what people like about the character. When you bring him down to this world's level what you're doing is stripping that character of everything that people look up to and aspire to be. Like it or not, that 'S' symbol means a hell of a lot to people in real life and that counts for something when you're telling a story about the character.

The counter argument of course is why should Superman not be allowed to evolve, why should we not challenge who Superman is, and the answer is simply because that's not what people want to see. Making a film about Superman, Batman, spider-Man, whoever it is, comes with certain limitations creatively. It's not fair but that's just the rules you have to play with when you're dealing with these characters. In all honesty, if you want some type of deconstruction of a superhero you're best off leaving Superman alone and finding a character who fits.

In all honesty both MoS and BvS bring up very valid questions about Superman, questions like do we need a Superman, but not once are these answered positively, and that's a huge problem for a character for many people like. If you ask the question 'Does the world need Superman?' you answer that within your story with an emphatic 'Yes'. What is there to grab onto if the answer is, at best, 'maybe'?

These characters, like it or not, are symbols of inspiration. It's easy to make a story that tears down those characters values, it's much harder to write a story that sticks to those values. Anyone who says you can't make a movie in 2016 with a positive perspective of Superman has either a very pessimistic view of the world or is not trying hard enough. There's plenty there to craft a story that is optimistic whilst also asking questions about who the character is, you've just got to embrace the symbol not reject it.


“It’s about going back to the source material,” Cavill replies when asked how he approached the role a second time around. “There’s an awful lot of psychology in Superman, because it’s the one way that you can find to crack the shell. When it comes to playing the character – especially in this movie, because we still get to see the growth of Superman before we see the fully developed character that we know and love from the comic books – it’s about delving into the psychology and discovering the weaknesses therein. It’s about playing upon the conflicts that he has.”
How has Superman changed in Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice? “For me, this felt very much like the development of Superman, and the development of the character that we know and love from the comic book,” Cavill replies. “We’re still not there yet. We’re looking at the guy growing up. He’s become this super man after discovering that he was Kal-El in the first movie, and now he’s facing off against this second guy. It’s a tough outing for him, because it’s against a psychological enemy, as opposed to a physical enemy like General Zod was. We see him make mistakes, and we see him grow from those mistakes.”


Basically the whole arc of Clark is growing to be the Superman we know from MOS-BvS-JL.

And the guys saying he didnt do anything hopeful in the movie : Did you miss the last thing he did?Declaring this world as his own and sacrificing himself for it?And then the whole world accepting him as "If you seek his monument,look around you".If thats not hopeful nothing is.
 
Hey, so do we know if the violence is the only reason the Ultimate Cut got the R rating? Like, is there an f-bomb dropped in there or something, too? Or is the language and sexual content about the same and the added violence is the only real cause of the upped rating?

That's the only reason the MPAA gave it R. There is one f bomb and of course the Batass. Both of which would be okay in PG13, just look at DOFP.
 
I've got no problem with a character having to fight against the darkness, but I don't think what's happened with this Superman is him having to fight against darkness, it's him being the darkness. It's the shadow that is hovering over him questioning whether he's actually of any value. I don't feel like in two films we've been given a positive answer as to why the world needs a Superman. I've got no issue putting Superman through tests, but I do have issues of not really addressing in detail what's actually good about the character.

As I said before, if you want to bring who he is as a person into question that's very valid, I don't even have a problem with him asking questions of himself, but at the end of the day you have to stop asking those questions and start answering them positively. "Yes, we need a Superman. Yes I'm determined to do this no matter what", that's what matters in the end. If the argument is that we'll get that Superman eventually in the end my rebuttal is I, and many others, are not going to stick around waiting on the basis we'll get there eventually. A long journey does not make a good one. No-one should have to sit through 9 hours of movie just to get something resembling that character, something that could easily have been completed in one movie. This is not television, this is not netflix, it's film, and the vast majority of people want a complete story and complete character journey in one sitting.

Not a fan of trilogies are you?

Also the vast majority want a lot of things that are ****. It won't kill them to watch a few films dealing with the development and evolution and growth of a character. It's not like WB and Zack are taking 9 hours to give the charactes his powers. He has them and he is Superman. JuBut he is an emotionally complex and growing character. Not some prepackaged cookie cutter archetype from the get go, and nor should he be after a single film.

I'm not sure what I hate more. That origin films happen as much as they do or that they try to cram a complex journey and massive character growth into only two-thirds of a film. A character should never stop growing and evolving. And they shouldn't go from being one type of person to being a flawless superhero in only 90 - 120 minutes.
 
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Not a fan of trilogies are you?

Also the vast majority want a lot of things that are ****. It won't kill them to watch a few films dealing with the development and evolution and growth of a character. It's not like WB and Zack are taking 9 hours to give the charactes his powers. He has them and he is Superman. JuBut he is an emotionally complex and growing character. Not some prepackaged cookie cutter archetype from the get go, and nor should he be after a single film.

I'm not sure what I hate more. That origin films happen as much as they do or that they try to cram a complex journey and massive character growth into only two-thirds of a film. A character should never stop growing and evolving. And they shouldn't go from being one type of person to being a flawless superhero in only 90 - 120 minutes.
:applaud
 
Not a fan of trilogies are you?

Also the vast majority want a lot of things that are ****. It won't kill them to watch a few films dealing with the development and evolution and growth of a character. It's not like WB and Zack are taking 9 hours to give the charactes his powers. He has them and he is Superman. JuBut he is an emotionally complex and growing character. Not some prepackaged cookie cutter archetype from the get go, and nor should he be after a single film.

I'm not sure what I hate more. That origin films happen as much as they do or that they try to cram a complex journey and massive character growth into only two-thirds of a film. A character should never stop growing and evolving. And they shouldn't go from being one type of person to being a flawless superhero in only 90 - 120 minutes.

This goes beyond trilogies and impatience of some fans, this Superman is simply unrecognizable and criticism of that is met with a "wait to the next movie" from the apologist. The only thing Snyder Superman has in common with Superman is the name and powers as he clearly does not embody the spirit of the character. I don't go into a Superman movie wanting to leave depressed and underwhelmed but hopeful and inspired to go on and be better. No one is asking for this Superman to come full circle in two movies but at least have him be recognizable as the character he is meant to be.
 
Ok,I want to ask this question respectfully because I think I've been seeing this come up a lot, why is it that people see Cavill's Superman as "unrecognizable?" Because he doesn't yet have the warmth and confidence of his comic book counterpart? Why is it that people will not look at Superman's actions in the past two films? Actions speak louder than words.

One of my favorite moments from Man of Steel was when he was about to go stop the World Engine and Lois says to him "If that thing is from Krypton, won't you be weaker around it?" and then he replies "Maybe....but I'm not about to let that stop me from trying." I mean, damn, is that NOT SUPERMAN in a nutshell? An alien with a good heart thats out to do the right thing no matter what? Without the slightest hesitation the guy gave his life to stop a monster that was going wreak tons of havoc. Thats pretty Superman, imo. I get that people want more warmth from the character and I even agree that he could be written a little less serious all the time. But, to say that this is an "unrecogizable" Superman, I'm sorry, I dont see it. Judging from this guy's actions, he's pretty Superman.
 
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The thing is, most reboot trilogies are doing what Snyder is doing with Superman. Lencho mentioned the Daniel Craig Bond films, and that's a perfect example. We never really saw Batman in his prime in the Nolan trilogy. He went from learning the ropes in BB/TDK to being older in TDKR. And we've yet to see Chris Pine's Captain Kirk become the archetypal version.

However, the thing with Bale/Craig/Pine is, their performances still have the iconic traits of their respective characters. For many people, that's not the case with Cavill's Superman. IMO, he seems more like a generic 21st Century Film Superhero than Superman.
 
I dunno, he looks pretty iconic to me.
Yesetrday I watched MOS again and it struck me that his greatest moment was him destroying the World Enigine. It took everything he had and just as in BvS he was willing to give his live for the people on earth.
Sure he doesn't hug anyone or rescues a kitten out of tree, but there's no other Superman movie that shows Superman actually willing to give up his life to save the human race other than MOS and BvS twice.

To me it doesn't get more Super than that.
 
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Ok,I want to ask this question respectfully because I think I've been seeing this come up a lot, why is it that people see Cavill's Superman as "unrecognizable?" Because he doesn't yet have the warmth and confidence of his comic book counterpart? Why is it that people will not look at Superman's actions in the past two films? Actions speak louder than words.

One of my favorite moments from Man of Steel was when he was about to go stop the World Engine and Lois says to him "If that thing is from Krypton, won't you be weaker around it?" and then he replies "Maybe....but I'm not about to let that stop me from trying." I mean, damn, is that NOT SUPERMAN in a nutshell? An alien with a good heart thats out to do the right thing no matter what? Without the slightest hesitation the guy gave his life to stop a monster that was going wreak tons of havoc. Thats pretty Superman, imo. I get that people want more warmth from the character and I even agree that he could be written a little less serious all the time. But, to say that this is an "unrecogizable" Superman, I'm sorry, I dont see it. Judging from this guy's actions, he's pretty Superman.

Also he was very Superman in this movie.

One of the best moments was he saved the man,who kidnapped his girlfriend,kidnapped his mother and threatened to burn her alive and then created a monster to kill him from that monster.I mean how much more altruistic can you get.And apart from the montage in which we see him helping people...
Saves the village from the air missiles.And helps the people after the explosion

And finally he gives up his life for humanity.Now tell me mate,that is not inspiring?
 
Pushing Doomsday further into space and accepting he'll be nuked too.
Saving Lex by catching Doomsday's fist.
Driving the spear into Doomsday while the spike pushes further into himself.
The Day of the Dead montage and pulling the ship.
Clark's views about Batman thinking he's above the law.
The aftermath of the Senate bombing.

The character is Superman to me. Selfless, heroic and saving the day.
 
The thing is, most reboot trilogies are doing what Snyder is doing with Superman. Lencho mentioned the Daniel Craig Bond films, and that's a perfect example. We never really saw Batman in his prime in the Nolan trilogy. He went from learning the ropes in BB/TDK to being older in TDKR. And we've yet to see Chris Pine's Captain Kirk become the archetypal version.

However, the thing with Bale/Craig/Pine is, their performances still have the iconic traits of their respective characters. For many people, that's not the case with Cavill's Superman. IMO, he seems more like a generic 21st Century Film Superhero than Superman.

Forget Superman, Snyder's Kal-El barely feels like a character at all.
 
Forget Superman, Snyder's Kal-El barely feels like a character at all.
Superman is judged and doubted, but he remains firm in his ideals. It's Batman and the rest of the world that comes over to his side. They realise he really was a good man with good intentions. That's a strong portrayal of Superman in my mind. He doesn't budge even though it's a rocky road.
 
Too often Superman comes off as a plot point and not a person. Even when he's doing good things I don't have an emotional connection to him. The UC won't change that. My best hope is that the resurrection will.
 
Superman is judged and doubted, but he remains firm in his ideals. It's Batman and the rest of the world that comes over to his side. They realise he really was a good man with good intentions. That's a strong portrayal of Superman in my mind. He doesn't budge even though it's a rocky road.
I think, he allows himself some doubt, but he never stops being a good and selfless person. I agree it's a strong portrayal of Superman. It's an interesting portrayal.
 
Superman is judged and doubted, but he remains firm in his ideals. It's Batman and the rest of the world that comes over to his side. They realise he really was a good man with good intentions. That's a strong portrayal of Superman in my mind. He doesn't budge even though it's a rocky road.

I like how the division of Kal's aspects played out. Clark was his philosophy, ready to confront people on their myopia and indifference. Superman was the implementation of that philosophy. Words were often useless things for him. He was tireless in his noble action regardless of what the rest of the world thought.
 
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