BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 1

[Sleiek]

It's not that I expected or wanted to see Superman angry, it's that he gets angry when his mother is threatened. Damn. Moms are great! and that's one good kid coming in defence of his mother. Forget he is Superman. He is a human being in that scene.

 

[kguillou]

It's not that I expected or wanted to see Superman angry, it's that he gets angry when his mother is threatened. Damn. Moms are great! and that's one good kid coming in defence of his mother. Forget he is Superman. He is a human being in that scene.

Well said, that's what I meant. t:

 

[StormC]

I might have cared for the scene more if the movie was able to get me invested in the characters. As-is it's just an okay scene that emphasizes Snyder's need for melodrama and over-the-top action.

 

[Sleiek]

I might have cared for the scene more if the movie was able to get me invested in the characters. As-is it's just an okay scene that emphasizes Snyder's need for melodrama and over-the-top action.

I don't know if it's that or I am just way too empathetic.

Well said, that's what I meant. t:

 

[ApophènX]

Superman felling angry for his mom is super coherent after all the birth/mother situation in MoS. After he killed Zod he is clearly took by Lois in her arm with a forgiving and czlming mother attitude. Our Kal-El is a sensitive little boy

 

[Sleiek]

And after the fight, he comes back to check on his mom and shouts "mom" like a little boy. I might tear up, enough of Man of Steel.

 

[kguillou]

His scenes with his mom really connected with me in MoS. I'm hoping there are more Clark/ Martha scenes in the UC.

 

[chintai80]

the scenes with superman trying to protect and save his mom in MOS and BVS is what humanizes him and makes me connect to the character too.

also it makes a good reflection to affleck's batman - who has major unresolved issues with his own mother - since he feels he failed to save her.

 

[idiot09]

I'm hoping there are more Clark/ Martha scenes in the UC.

 

[Rev]

They do indeed, I was put of from MOS regarding this Superman's indifference to the destruction around him or a lack of empathy for those being killed while he engaged in a slug fest.
I can agree with the fact that he caused destruction what I disagree on is that he was indifferent to said destruction going on around him. He was in the fight of his life against Zod and the fate of the planet hung in the balance if he lost said battle. Destruction and loss of life occurred that is for sure but I believe the fact that the city of Metropolis erected a statue in his honour and that the park is called "Heroe's Park" would appear to indicate that empathy was there in some form even if we did not witness it on screen.

A simple scene highlighting how all the destruction wrought around him affected him greatly would have quelled any criticism I had regarding his actions. Not to mention (I don't care how much you all try and justify it) he let his father die, no decent human being would let their parents die if they had the power to stop it despite the repercussions to themselves. Some people will risk their life for a loved one and will happily die in order to ensure their loved one is safe, that's heroic and selfless not this crap we was presented for the sake of melodrama.
The funny thing about that is the only thing we are sure of is that Clark was super strong. Did they even indicate that he had invulnerability and super speed like previous iterations? Sometimes I think we need to look at what has been presented and judge from there rather than bring in assumptions regarding the character.

Another thing is the constant brooding and frowning he seems upset all the time and his life seems so dreary no joy in it whatsoever. We have one scene in this trilogy of him relishing and enjoying the abilities that his blessed with and after that its more misery. This Superman lacks charisma and doesnt seem like someone that can inspire heroes, Superman is a hero of heroes and this version just seems like someone with power. What happens when guys with similar abilities come on the scene? He cant awe them simply with his power and he lacks no personality. Can you really see this Superman leading the league? Who would follow him? He cant even get his life straight let alone lead a team of metas. After two movies can you even say what this Superman stands for? Besides saying "I am here to help" what drives the character besides his love for Lois and his mum? Trust me guys it pains me to hate a version of Superman this much but I absolutely cant stand this interpretation of the character and the more I examine whats being done with him the more I hate him.

It does not always take charisma or charm to inspire people. We may not like the moodiness or brooding but he is totally justified to display these emotions especially when he is being second guessed and vilified for his actions. He has shown charm on screen but when the situation calls for it I think he is allowed to be that way.

 

[ApophènX]

the scenes with superman trying to protect and save his mom in MOS and BVS is what humanizes him and makes me connect to the character too.

also it makes a good reflection to affleck's batman - who has major unresolved issues with his own mother - since he feels he failed to save her.

Me too. I thought explaining Superman through birth was interesting on many levels: it is supposed to be a fresh start for superman and a story of origin, he is a christic figure and a figure of renewing and it reinforce the bound with his mother and lois.

We could even go for it represent is trauma of loosing his world, he lost his home planet, he find refuge on "mother earth", in his spaceship he too kind of came to terraform, in a softer way, lost hope.

 

[Monochron]

I'll be completely honest, I damn near cheered at the "YOU THINK. YOU CAN THREATEN MY MOTHER!" scene. I can definitely understand the viewpoint that it was a big, reckless action scene for action's sake but I don't care. I had been waiting forever to see Superman get angry and throw down and I just really connected with how Superman came to his mother's defense like that. It's what I would have done and what I would have said to Zod.

The most reckless part being Superman leaving his mother at the mercy of the other Kryptonians that were there with Zod. He was lucky they decided not to take her hostage.

 

[Anita18]

Too often Superman comes off as a plot point and not a person. Even when he's doing good things I don't have an emotional connection to him.

That's how he came off to me too.

Was thinking about how I was raised vs how some of my relatives were raised, and it suddenly occurred to me why the modern versions of cinematic Superman is not very compelling to me.

I was raised in an high-expectations Asian household. You know, the usual - all A's, no B's were allowed, etc, but my parents also instilled in me and my sister real passion for doing good. Not sure how they managed that, since my parents aren't extreme hippies themselves, but OMG do my sister and I have a serious civil service streak. We aren't checking off boxes, we truly care and have passion for helping people. We get EXCITED about it, and have strong feelings about causes.

Whereas the high school we went to was also full of high-expectations Asian families, except the goal for most of them wasn't to help, the goal was to get the A's and go to an Ivy League. That's it, just check off the box and be on your way. You can tell those kids didn't have passion for what they were doing, because they simply didn't care as long as it checked off the box. They were missing that light in their eyes.

When you talk to my cousins, they have no opinion on anything because their parents strong-armed their opinions out of them. Whatever mommy wants them to do, that's what they'll do. One of them's in medical school so he's doing good, but he has no true passion for it. It's just something to check off. Being around them is kind of depressing because they really don't care about anything.

That's the feeling I get when I watched Superman in MoS and BvS, and even SR to a point. He's doing good because he's kind of resigned himself to doing it. (What is the other option besides being a bad guy, and that's obviously onerous in itself!) But it doesn't feel like it drives him, it doesn't feel like he has passion for it. And watching him is kind of like hanging out with my depressing cousins.

 

[STARMAN]

Interesting observations and comparisons to your own life, Anita. I get what you're saying. The actions I see Superman taking come off as burden obligations and not heroics.

The snippets from the UC doesn't change that for me.

 

[chintai80]

That's how he came off to me too.

Was thinking about how I was raised vs how some of my relatives were raised, and it suddenly occurred to me why the modern versions of cinematic Superman is not very compelling to me.

I was raised in an high-expectations Asian household. You know, the usual - all A's, no B's were allowed, etc, but my parents also instilled in me and my sister real passion for doing good. Not sure how they managed that, since my parents aren't extreme hippies themselves, but OMG do my sister and I have a serious civil service streak. We aren't checking off boxes, we truly care and have passion for helping people. We get EXCITED about it, and have strong feelings about causes.

Whereas the high school we went to was also full of high-expectations Asian families, except the goal for most of them wasn't to help, the goal was to get the A's and go to an Ivy League. That's it, just check off the box and be on your way. You can tell those kids didn't have passion for what they were doing, because they simply didn't care as long as it checked off the box. They were missing that light in their eyes.

When you talk to my cousins, they have no opinion on anything because their parents strong-armed their opinions out of them. Whatever mommy wants them to do, that's what they'll do. One of them's in medical school so he's doing good, but he has no true passion for it. It's just something to check off. Being around them is kind of depressing because they really don't care about anything.

That's the feeling I get when I watched Superman in MoS and BvS, and even SR to a point. He's doing good because he's kind of resigned himself to doing it. (What is the other option besides being a bad guy, and that's obviously onerous in itself!) But it doesn't feel like it drives him, it doesn't feel like he has passion for it. And watching him is kind of like hanging out with my depressing cousins.

quit judging your cousins yo. they probably weren't fortunate enough to have the opportunities or upbringing you had.

but yea, i'm sorta conflicted about how i feel about superman in bvs. i liked what they did in mos. and i get what snyder's trying to show in bvs, but i don't think he was even halfway successful in it.
but i'm gonna wait for the extended cut before i make my final assessment. ( i want more superman/clark moments).

 

[ApophènX]

So you have a real passion for helping people and you're blaming Superman for not being the same, i don't find this very empathic.. Moreso here Superman is taken as Christic-alien figure which obviously put distance beetwen him and the world, i want to say i resonate with this beczuse i can identify. It's alwzys sad that we can't relate with what we don't understand, understanding coming from empathy and the ability to find ressemblance with one another. There is a needed projection and will to new structure.

I think it works for movie mzybe if i rewatch a film i didn't like and try to really connect with by chaning myself i'm gonn abe able to fing myself more, as i will be more open. Sorry for the philowsofeel

MoS had great emotional catharsis to me, have to rewatch BvS with UC since i didn't really see it or imply myself in it. I didn't get the burdden feeling in MoS but laybe it is there in BvS, still would be interesting to make feel empathy for a christic figure. Well they already did in SM2. Maybe that reinforce the power of the archetyp

 

[Da-Scribe]

Eh, I grew up in a pretty typical Midwestern household. My parents expected us to do well, but that was a pretty general sorta thing. It wasn't about grades. I could get an F, but as long as I actually tried my hardest (damn you Honors Trig) then it was all good. Go back, reset, find a new way to approach it. As far as any social obligations, that wasn't an expectation per se. It was just something you did. Not because you owed anyone, just because you could. And sometimes you can't. We were low income. I'd wanna buy stuff for homeless people. My ma would have to remind me that we needed to put food on our own table. It was a tough balancing act. To this day it still breaks my heart. Knowing I can't help everyone. Knowing that when I do help some people, I might just be putting others in a worse position.

The other side of that was humility. "You don't do good things for a thank you." My dad always told me that. I remember talking to this homeless guy and offering to get him some basics from Walgreens. He was super appreciative. It made me happy just to see him happy. Then he started saluting me, I didn't deserve that. I'd never been to war like he had. I had no visibility in that realm. "Stop saluting me, sir." I said that a few times. It got to a point where I just got him his stuff and got outta there. I didn't want the extra adulation. I was just a guy. Treating me like more than that just made me uncomfortable.

My point in all this is that not everyone carries that light in their eyes when they're helping. We just help because we happened to be there at the right time. It's just a thing you do. It makes us happy to do it, but when you start treating us like anything more than some average joe, we get freaked out. I had a lady living with a handicap call me an angel over and over for helping her back out of a parking lot. "I'm not an angel. Just happened to be passing through is all."

There are just other shades to humanitarianism I suppose. It's not a black and white, love it or hate it sorta thing. Like I said, it's just a thing you do. No big deal. I think Clark just falls in that gray area. He loves to help and he does it just because. Once you start treating him like a god, it's time for him to bail. There's nothing wrong with having a visible passion. That's a beautiful thing. But for me, there's a charm and familiarity in keeping everything really lowkey. In seeing someone who really just treats these massive acts as heroism as an average day.

Sorry if this a bit all over. It's practically EOD and I'm half way into my bourbon.

 

[Anita18]

So you have a real passion for helping people and you're blaming Superman for not being the same, i don't find this very empathic.. Moreso here Superman is taken as Christic-alien figure which obviously put distance beetwen him and the world, i want to say i resonate with this beczuse i can identify. It's alwzys sad that we can't relate with what we don't understand, understanding coming from empathy and the ability to find ressemblance with one another. There is a needed projection and will to new structure.

I think it works for movie mzybe if i rewatch a film i didn't like and try to really connect with by chaning myself i'm gonn abe able to fing myself more, as i will be more open. Sorry for the philowsofeel

MoS had great emotional catharsis to me, have to rewatch BvS with UC since i didn't really see it or imply myself in it. I didn't get the burdden feeling in MoS but laybe it is there in BvS, still would be interesting to make feel empathy for a christic figure. Well they already did in SM2. Maybe that reinforce the power of the archetyp

I'm not blaming Superman, I'm blaming the writers for writing Superman like an aimless high schooler.

Eh, I grew up in a pretty typical Midwestern household. My parents expected us to do well, but that was a pretty general sorta thing. It wasn't about grades. I could get an F, but as long as I actually tried my hardest (damn you Honors Trig) then it was all good. Go back, reset, find a new way to approach it. As far as any social obligations, that wasn't an expectation per se. It was just something you did. Not because you owed anyone, just because you could. And sometimes you can't. We were low income. I'd wanna buy stuff for homeless people. My ma would have to remind me that we needed to put food on our own table. It was a tough balancing act. To this day it still breaks my heart. Knowing I can't help everyone. Knowing that when I do help some people, I might just be putting others in a worse position.

The other side of that was humility. "You don't do good things for a thank you." My dad always told me that. I remember talking to this homeless guy and offering to get him some basics from Walgreens. He was super appreciative. It made me happy just to see him happy. Then he started saluting me, I didn't deserve that. I'd never been to war like he had. I had no visibility in that realm. "Stop saluting me, sir." I said that a few times. It got to a point where I just got him his stuff and got outta there. I didn't want the extra adulation. I was just a guy. Treating me like more than that just made me uncomfortable.

My point in all this is that not everyone carries that light in their eyes when they're helping. We just help because we happened to be there at the right time. It's just a thing you do. It makes us happy to do it, but when you start treating us like anything more than some average joe, we get freaked out. I had a lady living with a handicap call me an angel over and over for helping her back out of a parking lot. "I'm not an angel. Just happened to be passing through is all."

There are just other shades to humanitarianism I suppose. It's not a black and white, love it or hate it sorta thing. Like I said, it's just a thing you do. No big deal. I think Clark just falls in that gray area. He loves to help and he does it just because. Once you start treating him like a god, it's time for him to bail. There's nothing wrong with having a visible passion. That's a beautiful thing. But for me, there's a charm and familiarity in keeping everything really lowkey. In seeing someone who really just treats these massive acts as heroism as an average day.

Sorry if this a bit all over. It's practically EOD and I'm half way into my bourbon.

There are shades to humanitarianism, for sure. I think most people are where you are - mostly trying to get by and helping where they can. That's commendable in itself. I don't want accolades either, I just really want to help. I seek out jobs where it's built in - I crossed out any jobs having to do with advertising right off the bat because I knew it wouldn't fulfill me. (And it's tough, with so many advertising jobs for the taking in LA!) And I do recognize that I have the privilege to think this way, to choose how to channel that optimism where it makes the most impact. I was given these gifts, so I do my best to pay it forward.

But this is Superman we're talking about. Mentioned here multiple times by multiple people as the best of humanity. He's often equated to Captain America because the eager optimism of both is usually thought of as "square" and "naive." If Superman doesn't have that eager optimism, who is he exactly then?

 

[StormC]

I'm not blaming Superman, I'm blaming the writers for writing Superman like an aimless high schooler.

This is exactly it. How old is Clark supposed to be in MOS? 30? He acts half that age.

 

[ApophènX]

Dos not change my point.

I think they made him 33, the age Jesus supposly die. Clark is here going a change in his approach to the world and reveiling himself, this may look more like something you do in your 20s but it's still accurte in relation to the Christ and the rebirth. Times of change and accessing to the higher state.

 

[The Shape]

That's the feeling I get when I watched Superman in MoS and BvS, and even SR to a point. He's doing good because he's kind of resigned himself to doing it. (What is the other option besides being a bad guy, and that's obviously onerous in itself!) But it doesn't feel like it drives him, it doesn't feel like he has passion for it. And watching him is kind of like hanging out with my depressing cousins.

What option is there for him besides being a bad guy? Well, there are always the options of using his powers to travel the world and sleep with thousands of women, using his powers to become a celebrity and financially benefit from the people all over the world who would pay money to witness his incredible abilities, and of course, there's the option of doing nothing at all with his powers and choosing to live a normal and quiet life -- none of which are things this Superman chose to do.

Instead, he chooses to do good and be Superman -- not because he's forced to, but because he wants to. As far as his "passion" for doing good, I'm not sure exactly what you expect to see or hear from him in this regard based on the things he's done in these films. I have little doubt that many doctors, EMTs, and police offers are truly passionate about what they do and feel joy/satisfaction while helping people, but it wouldn't be easy to see that when they're knee-deep in their work -- frantically trying to keep someone alive in an ambulance, performing emergency surgery at 2am, engaging in gun battle with a terrorist, etc.

In terms of what drives him, maybe a "world savior" isn't something that this Clark had dreamed of becoming since he was a child, or desperately wanted to do in place of living a "normal" life. But it's clear that there is an inherent goodness within him and an inherent desire to help people that drives him. When I say "inherent", I mean that these are permanent, essential, characteristic attributes. This is shown long before he dons the cape, as he saves others as a boy (and risks exposing his abilities while doing so) and stealthily performs rescues and good deeds as a "lost traveler" in MOS -- not because he has to or the world expects him to at that point, but because he wants to and because he can. Maybe he didn't always know why he did those things, and maybe he doesn't always enjoy doing it, but he still wantsa to and does.

Many people dream of following a certain career path in life, of accomplishing something that may or may not actually be realistically achievable for them. We're all told to "follow our dreams" and that we can "be whatever we want to be" in life. With that in mind, what is there to be said of this Clark? What is there to be said of a man who chooses to devote his life to doing something -- a good thing, the right thing, the hard thing -- and perseveres in his chosen path against all odds? His father instilled in him that he shouldn't do this, that the world wouldn't be ready for what he could offer. His people question him, reject him, blame him for things that are out of his control, and suggest that he shouldn't do what he does. Other men try to manipulate him, test him, break him down, endanger his loved ones, kill him, and force him to confront his idealism. He makes mistakes and isn't always 100% successful in what he does, which causes him to question himself and his chosen path, but he continues on. He comes back. He doesn't give up, and ultimately makes the ultimate sacrifice to do what he set out to do, which is to protect and help people.

Sounds like one hell of a man to me. I know there are certain things people wish they could have seen from this Superman, but for me, his actions speak louder than his words could, in some ways. I don't need to hear him verbally express how much he loves being Superman, or how happy it makes him to save people, or frequently monologuing and debating about his ideals and point of view with other characters. But a small thing like the warm expression and gentle smile on his face as he saves someone from a fire and brings her to her family (in the Day of the Dead sequence) tells me what I need to know about him -- he likes what he does, and knows what he's doing is not only right, but worthwhile.

 

[TeeKay]

Did someone really compare Thor and Superman?

 

[AnneFan]

Unfortunately he does not, this movie has him waver and outright drop these so called ideals (I say so called ideals because we dont know what they are). "No one stays good in this world" Superman also implies that if he cannot convince Batman he will have to kill him. This was not a ruse as it was a dire moment where he actually was contemplating this...................how very Superman like.

Disagree. He allows himself some doubt, with Lois and Martha his sources of guidance at points. He's not a robot. To feel down and question yourself is to be human. His walk in the snow gives him peace and quiet to reflect as well. Situations get dire, but when push comes to shove, he doesn't kill. He just wants Batman to stay down and he says as much. When the kryptonite gas is used, it's more a primal fight for survival. He has to fight back or he will be pulverised. He doesn't have a choice.

 

[The Joker]

This is exactly it. How old is Clark supposed to be in MOS? 30? He acts half that age.

That's an insult to 15 year olds!

 

[Da-Scribe]

I'm not blaming Superman, I'm blaming the writers for writing Superman like an aimless high schooler.


There are shades to humanitarianism, for sure. I think most people are where you are - mostly trying to get by and helping where they can. That's commendable in itself. I don't want accolades either, I just really want to help. I seek out jobs where it's built in - I crossed out any jobs having to do with advertising right off the bat because I knew it wouldn't fulfill me. (And it's tough, with so many advertising jobs for the taking in LA!) And I do recognize that I have the privilege to think this way, to choose how to channel that optimism where it makes the most impact. I was given these gifts, so I do my best to pay it forward.

But this is Superman we're talking about. Mentioned here multiple times by multiple people as the best of humanity. He's often equated to Captain America because the eager optimism of both is usually thought of as "square" and "naive." If Superman doesn't have that eager optimism, who is he exactly then?

I get what you're saying, but when does he stop being one of us and start being better than us? On one hand we want relatablility, but on the other we want iconography.

I love Cap. He represents the best of us. But I can't relate to him at all. Superman is the only CBM character right now that I feel like I have anything in common with. He goes through **** and doesn't do everything perfectly. He doubts himself and his mission. Cap never does that. Cap is peak human. Superman is just human.