The Dark Knight Returns

[silentflute]

I don't think I'm underestimating anything. If you conisder my post in its entirety, I repeatedly acknowledge what Miller accomplished with DKR, in that he attributed greater depth and pathos to the Batman, thereby enhancing elements of his persona that the public already loved.

However, you asked if Batman would be as popular as he is today without the book's publishing. I feel Batman's popularity does not hinge on the work of one individual. Such a sentiment would be a great discredit to the hundreds of writers, artists and editors that have collaborated to reinvent the character time and again, not to mention his creators themselves.

I can't see how Tim Burton could have been inspired by it, since, by his own admittal, he has never read a comic book. in. his. life. (If you ask me, that fact is made painfully obvious through his attempts at two films based off a comic book character.) So, since Batman the film is completely a product of Timmy's imagination, and since there are no direct references or homages to DKR in any of its minutes, I'm fairly certain that I'd have to sit through the same crock of s*** that I did back in '89. That's with or without Miller's grizzled old warhorse ever seeing print.

You do have a point regarding TAS. Warner's definitely banked on a Batman cartoon due to the success of the movie's marketing with kids. Not really the movie itself, per se, but the fact that every piece of crap with a Batsymbol on it sold out. I remember girls at school with big Batsymbol earings, and they didn't even see the movie or know what the hell it represented. Batman was just the cool brand to be seen in that year. So yeah, that paved the way for my favorite American 'toon.

But sorry, Cobby, I don't see a straight line drawn from Burton to Miller.

-- END!

Actually it's been stated in several interviews that Tim had a deep appreciation for The Killing Joke.He also looked at DKR, but wasn't as impressed with it.This makes perfect sense,considering how Batman 89 turned out.

That being said though,WB and the producers were certainly feeling DKR's presence.And certainly used it as a reference point.Therefore, Tim would have had to acknowledge it.The primary influence of DKR on Batman 89 is strictly in tone/mood.

 

[Cobblepot]

This is all pure speculation but I do believe that if,
DKR and Year One weren't the big successes they are, WB would not have had "Batman 1989" made. Face it DKR (and Watchmen) is what put comics back on the map again, especially for a broader audience. This is mainly why WB's allowed Tim Burton to use a "darker" Batman. Otherwise I'm pretty sure it would have been another kids movie.

 

[silentflute]

This is all pure speculation but I do believe that if,
DKR and Year One weren't the big successes they are, WB would not have had "Batman 1989" made. Face it DKR (and Watchmen) is what put comics back on the map again, especially for a broader audience. This is mainly why WB's allowed Tim Burton to use a "darker" Batman. Otherwise I'm pretty sure it would have been another kids movie.

Agreed.The Batman film was in limbo for 10 years because there were conflicting opinions on how it should be done.DKR enabled the powers that be to agree that "dark" was the way to go.

The funny thing though, is that if you really look at Batman 89, there's nothing really dark about any of it.It's equally as campy as the 60's tv show - the only difference is that it 's veiled in this "dark" cloak--the sets,costume designs and gothic look of the city.

 

[crazy monkey]

Actually it's been stated in several interviews that Tim had a deep appreciation for The Killing Joke.He also looked at DKR, but wasn't as impressed with it.This makes perfect sense,considering how Batman 89 turned out.

I remember reading that the picture's screenwriter, Sam Hamm, was influenced by Killing Joke, not Burton. I do remember Tim saying that he tried picking up a comic or two, but could never finish them because he found navigating the panels to be confusing.

That being said though,WB and the producers were certainly feeling DKR's presence.And certainly used it as a reference point.Therefore, Tim would have had to acknowledge it.The primary influence of DKR on Batman 89 is strictly in tone/mood.

Well, yes, reflecting the darker 'grim and gritty' movement of comics in general was part of the pitch for Batman. (Who produced that again? MacGregor-Scott? Or was it Uslan?) Touche, flute!

-- END!

 

[crazy monkey]

The funny thing though, is that if you really look at Batman 89, there's nothing really dark about any of it.It's equally as campy as the 60's tv show - the only difference is that it 's veiled in this "dark" cloak--the sets,costume designs and gothic look of the city.

Congragulations! You get it! 2,000 points to you, flute, and you go to the lightening round! Seriously, I've never known anyone else to see through the 'cloak' surrounding Burton's Batman, as you so aptly put it. Good show!

-- END!

 

[silentflute]

Congragulations! You get it! 2,000 points to you, flute, and you go to the lightening round! Seriously, I've never known anyone else to see through the 'cloak' surrounding Burton's Batman, as you so aptly put it. Good show!

-- END!

Do you have anything valid to contribute to this conversation, or are you still attempting to be a comedian?

 

[silentflute]

I remember reading that the picture's screenwriter, Sam Hamm, was influenced by Killing Joke, not Burton.

They both were.I specifically remember eithe Hamm or one of the producers saying Tim loved the Killing Joke.


I do remember Tim saying that he tried picking up a comic or two, but could never finish them because he found navigating the panels to be confusing.

Yeah, he has said that several times.But honestly, he would have had to have looked at/read the source material in order to get a handle of what it was the studio was looking to do.

 

[crazy monkey]

Do you have anything valid to contribute to this conversation, or are you still attempting to be a comedian?

OK... did you think I was being sarcastic or something? Because I was not. I was compeletely serious. I have always felt the same way about that movie and Returns, that they weren't actually dark at all, just dressed that way. In short: I was agreeing with you, dude.

That whole game show bit is something I do when people agree with me, y'know, as if my opinion is a 'correct response.' Sorry if you didn't get that. Not really trying for laugh-out-loud comedy there, just having a little fun. Sometimes tone gets lost in text. Guess I should've been clearer.

And yes, I've contributed two extensive, literate posts on this topic, specifically regarding Cobblepot's opinions on the impact of DKR on Batman's popularity and the Tim Burton feature.

Oh, but you'd know that, wouldn't you, since you've been quoting them in your posts and interjecting into my conversation with him?

-- END!

 

[silentflute]

OK... did you think I was being sarcastic or something? Because I was not. I was compeletely serious. I have always felt the same way about that movie and Returns, that they weren't actually dark at all, just dressed that way. In short: I was agreeing with you, dude.

That whole game show bit is something I do when people agree with me, y'know, as if my opinion is a 'correct response.' Sorry if you didn't get that. Not really trying for laugh-out-loud comedy there, just having a little fun. Sometimes tone gets lost in text. Guess I should've been clearer.

And yes, I've contributed two extensive, literate posts on this topic, specifically regarding Cobblepot's opinions on the impact of DKR on Batman's popularity and the Tim Burton feature.

Oh, but you'd know that, wouldn't you, since you've been quoting them in your posts and interjecting into my conversation with him?

-- END!

Apologies CM. I guess you can tell I've been around these boards long enough to have become jaded.

Anyhoo, I'm glad I have a partner in crime when it comes to really seeing those Burton flicks for what they are;in a way you gotta give Burton is the ultimate hustler.I mean, to have fooled that many fanboys(a lot of 'em on these boards)into believeing that his version is the genuine article for this long...

I honestly never thought the studios would nail it, so Batman Begins was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Kraven]

I do have one question about this book... At the beginning Bruce mentions something along the lines of him not talking with Dick anymore. Has it been explained why, or is that what Frank's trying to explain in All Star?

 

[crazy monkey]

Not explained in full, no. But, Dick's nauseating 'return' in DKSA insinuated that the rift between him and Bruce that led to their initial seperation in the actual comic canon was never repaired. (All Batman says to him is, "I remember firing you because you couldn't cut the mustard," or some such dreck.)

I think the real explaination is simplest: Frank had plans for Batman, not Grayson, and so he dropped him like a hot brick for the first instalment, and then turns him into a freak show (that Batman decapitates ) in the second. Which is a criminal degree of waste, I think.

Although, as an aside, I did like Carrie as Robin. She had cool slang.

Oh, and no worries, flute. 'Tis forgotten!

-- END!

 

[Liquid_Mind]

I've recently gone through a Batman TPB collecting craze, and finally had a chance to read DKR twenty long years after its publication. I may get a few tomatoes thrown at me for this, but after reading it, I found DKR a bit . . . underwhelming, at least in relation to the hype behind it. I do think that DKR tells a very good story, but I don't know, there were a few too many things that took me out of the story.

I understand that to fully appreciate DKR, one must consider the time period it was published in, but its also the very reason that DKR is stagnated in the 80's when the story is supposed to be the possible future of Batman. It's hyper-realism inclusion of "Ronald Reagan" or "David Letterman" (Letterman given a different name, but an obvious appearance) destroys that image of the future because I'm stuck realizing these are past celebrities/presidents. Not to mention that Russia is still considered the Soviet Union in the story. It's because of these reasons that I find Batman Year One to be a far more timeless and better story than DKR, even though its set in the past. Personally, if DKR was not set in the "future" these 80's metaphors probably wouldn't affect my interpretation of the story.

I also got a bit irritated by the many tiny panels of TV Reporters reminding us again and again and again that Gotham is a crappy world. In the first book, it was cool, but as I got to the second to third book, I started saying "OK I GET IT. GOTHAM still SUCKS even after Batman's return."

Though I have gripes with DKR, I'm sure my criticism exists solely because a lot of people have made DKR out to be one of the, if not THE BEST, Batman story told. That said, I still like DKR a lot. I'd certainly put it up there as one of the top five Batman TPB's I've read.

There are still a lot of memorable panels in DKR that make it a top TPB for me, which are:

Carrie Kelley as Robin - I admit, I loved how Miller portrayed her innocence in this dark gritty world even as she was fighting the crime around her. Not to mention the VERY touching scene where she introduced herself, then renamed herself as Robin. Batman repaying her kindness by introducing himself as Bruce and then holding her hand and acknowedging her as "Robin" sealed the deal for me.

I also love the almost fatherly relationship he has with Carrie, like in one scene where she almost falls to her death and she grabs Batman's cape and he pulls her up and hugs her while saying "Good soldier, good soldier."

I was also pleased by the Harvey Dent arc, even though a part of me was hoping it wasn't him, but if it wasn't, the dramatic effect would've faltered.

Joker/Batman and Superman/Batman were very memorable for obvious reasons.

I can go on about the positives about DKR, but I don't want to bore everyone in this thread.

How I would rank DKR on my Batman TPB list is this:
1) Batman: The Long Halloween

2) Batman: Year One (I can already sense the outrage at this being number 2 after Long Halloween. Sorry, I just found Halloween to have a more engrossing story for me.)

3) Batman: Dark Victory

4) Batman: Dark Knight Returns

 

[Punch]

The funny thing though, is that if you really look at Batman 89, there's nothing really dark about any of it.It's equally as campy as the 60's tv show - the only difference is that it 's veiled in this "dark" cloak--the sets,costume designs and gothic look of the city.

I agree to a point. It is campy (not nearly as campy as the TV show) but so is Begins in it's way.
89 was a long way from the TV show. Remember this is before TAS, and all the rest of the movies, so to everyone outside of the very small comics audience, Adam West was Batman, downing buttermilk, POWing and BOFFing away. As Campy as 89 was, it was also very violent and literally dark.

I do remember Tim saying that he tried picking up a comic or two, but could never finish them because he found navigating the panels to be confusing.

It sounds crazy, but I have heard that before. One of my painting teachers said the same thing when I tried to get her into comics.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

The Dark Knight Returns remains one of the best Batman stories ever told, and perhaps my favorite.

The book is not overrated. Batman does not kill in the book (He fires AROUND the Mutant holding the child, doesn't anybody look at what they're reading anymore?). It's a deeply unsettling but fulfilling book.

I fail to see how Frank Miller's "lost it." The guy's always been incredible. Offbeat and always interesting.

This book so perfectly defined the aspect of Batman I've always loved. The deeply psychological borderline-obsessive-but-not-crazy aspect that Michael Keaton epitomized and Batman Beyond also questioned. That, even at fifty-five, Bruce would still do what it takes. That he simply HAS to save Gotham, because he's the only one who can, as Keaton so perfectly captured that in his conversation with Vicki in the cave in B89. For all that Miller feels the Burton films "ruined" his material, he sure missed some of the glaring and obvious elements he directly inspired in them.

I don't care what anybody says. DKR is a masterpiece and Frank Miller is a genius.

 

[The Empire Ape]

I just can't stand it when people claim that TDKR returned Batman to his dark roots.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I love TDKR, it has a great story however I think the drawings are very crappy. But that's just Miller's style.

But Dark Knight Strikes Again is where he really dropped the ball.

 

[Lazlo Panaflex]

I loved it in fact it took me several days to finish it, very big and operatic.

 

[Cain]

Say what you want about Miller and his entire body of Batman comic work but you could never take DKR or Year One away from him. Those two right there are definite top 5 material. Best part is that you get to see Bats whoop Superman's ass.

>>>>

 

[silentflute]

I just can't stand it when people claim that TDKR returned Batman to his dark roots.

It did though.That's not open to debate.It's fact.

 

[Agentsands77]

It did though.That's not open to debate.It's fact.

Denny O'Neil returned Batman to his dark roots, not Frank Miller.

That said, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS was a lot louder about that return than anything that had come before. It was a huge statement.

 

[BubbaGump]

I love Dark Knight Returns not because of the comic itself (though it's a great cinematic story), but because it paved the way for Batman: The Animated Series, the greatest superhero show of all time.

 

[The Empire Ape]

It did though.That's not open to debate.It's fact.

No, it did not. It turned Batman into a paranoid *******.

 

[The Empire Ape]

I love Dark Knight Returns not because of the comic itself (though it's a great cinematic story), but because it paved the way for Batman: The Animated Series, the greatest superhero show of all time.

The Batman of BTAS is basically the Bronze Age Batman.

 

[BubbaGump]

The Batman of BTAS is basically the Bronze Age Batman.

Don't think so. Bruce Timm has stated his influences included DKR and the Fleischer Superman cartoons (for animation). Kevin Conroy's Batman is in no way Bronze Age.

 

[The Empire Ape]

Don't think so. Bruce Timm has stated his influences included DKR and the Fleischer Superman cartoons (for animation). Kevin Conroy's Batman is in no way Bronze Age.

Of course. "Influenced by DKR" can mean anything. I just don't see any DKR in the cartoon. Batman is not violent, doesn't act like a psycho, is very friendly to his friends and lurks in the shadows => 70s/early 80s Batman