The Dark Knight Returns

[larryfilmmaker]

Joker says "I don't keep count, but you do" quote]

Yeah, that line does rule. Still... Batman is not a killer and Miller has manipulated the reader into absolutely having no choice but to believe that killing Joker is the only option. Batman is above that and there are plenty of good arguments on why it's not weak, naive, or unrealistic not to kill your enemies. Miller just conveniently ignores them and exaggerates the consequences of not killing.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Coherent enough to me and others.Maybe you need to work on you're comprehension

That's your opinion. To some, didn't have a coherent story line. To others it just wasn't that great.

No, it enriches them.

That's a matter of opinion again.

Actually it was very insightful.And groundbreaking.No one had done it in comics before.

Opinion

It's supposed to be overblown.These our 20th century Gods.

But Batman is not supposed to be written as a god. He's supposed to be a man among gods. The symbol of human perfection. But nowhere near the god-like levels of Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, the Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman.

Next you'll be saying the same thing about Alan Moore.

Not good.Go back to the drawing board.

You'll be proven wrong.

Obviously...cause you're on of the ones that seem incapable of doing just that.

You are really reaching to rediculous proportions of fanboyism.

 

[Punch]

But Batman is not supposed to be written as a god. He's supposed to be a man among gods. The symbol of human perfection. But nowhere near the god-like levels of Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, the Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman.

Opinion

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Opinion

No it's not. He's a man in a bat costume. He's not a God. He's been stabbed, shot, and beat up by powerless thugs. That's a fact.

 

[Rockbottom]

I think its great, i just finished re-reading it again the other day, I 'got' more of the story this time, although i think Batman should of really died at the end rather than setting up underground, also he didnt really show much care for the fact Alfred died, but i love the way he achieves his goal of Gotham were Batman is no longer needed and the Crime alley fight. I didnt like the Joker However i thought he was too wooden for the Joker, I think he only laughed about two or three times.

 

[Punch]

No it's not. He's a man in a bat costume. He's not a God. He's been stabbed, shot, and beat up by powerless thugs. That's a fact.

LOL it's not a fact because he doesn't exist!
Yes he has his faults and weaknesses but he is still a larger than life symbol, the whole point of the bat costume in the first place

 

[FreeRadical]

LOL it's not a fact because he doesn't exist!
Yes he has his faults and weaknesses but he is still a larger than life symbol, the whole point of the bat costume in the first place

I can go out now, buy a Bat costume, wear it and beat up thugs. Doesn't mean I am a god.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Yeah, call Miller genius all you want but making your lead characters all the same (Wolverine, Batman, Marv, etc) isn't genius... it's selfish.

I wouldn't say that they're all EXACTLY the same. Most of his characters are dark, gritty anti-heroes, sure, but most of them have at least something different to bring to the table.

For example, Wolverine has background in the Samurai world, and tries to use the code of Bushido to calm the inner beast inside of him.

Marv is a brutal, lonely man who has a concrete mental disorder, so much so, that one could question the validity of the actual events that took place in the story.

The "integrity-based" characters in Miller's world are always naive, moronic sell outs (Superman, or any religious or government character)

I wouldn't say that either. There are plenty of strong characters who have balanced moral codes.

For example, John Hartigan in "That Yellow Bastard" is practically a saint, who sacrifices his name, his body, his soul, and eventually, his life to save a young girl.

King Leondias and his bodyguards in "300" also sacrifice their lives to keep their values of freedom and democracy alive and inspired their people to fight.

As for all religious characters being sell-outs...I take it you never read about a character named DAREDEVIL, did you?

 

[larryfilmmaker]

John Hartigan's monologues are so similar to Batman's in DKR and Marv's in Sin City that it's ridiculous. Of course there are little differences, but the OVER ALL characters Miller creates for them are the same. Miller's Marv, Dwight, Hartigan, Wolverine, Batman all kill in the name of good, which they aren't sure even exists.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

he is still a larger than life symbol, the whole point of the bat costume in the first place

Yes, but he's not a God. Just like it's a fact taht the suit is there to make him a "larger than life" symbol in the story, it's a fact that he's not on part with Gods. Just like Spidey or Wolverine. Not God-like. Still awesome characters.

 

[lixdexia]

Yes, but he's not a God. Just like it's a fact taht the suit is there to make him a "larger than life" symbol in the story, it's a fact that he's not on part with Gods. Just like Spidey or Wolverine. Not God-like. Still awesome characters.

you know you're right! near imortaltiy , the ability to stick to vertical serfaces and precognition aren't god like powers at all!

 

[Agentsands77]

Near-immortality? When has Batman exhibited anything like that?

The ability to stick to vertical surfaces is certainly not god-like when it's done with mechanical devices.

And precognition? To the best of my knowledge, Batman is not clairvoyant.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

John Hartigan's monologues are so similar to Batman's in DKR and Marv's in Sin City that it's ridiculous. Of course there are little differences, but the OVER ALL characters Miller creates for them are the same. Miller's Marv, Dwight, Hartigan, Wolverine, Batman all kill in the name of good, which they aren't sure even exists.

Uh...I'm pretty sure that Batman has not killed anyone. The only time that can actually be said is the Mutant holding the baby hostage, and that is very vague and looks it could have gone either way.

I also noticed that you didn't even mention any of the other examples. They break your arguement?

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Yes, you SHATTERED my argument with your amazing debate on why Frank Miller's lead characters aren't all the same cliche stereotype. No but seriously Daredevil is a good point and I haven't read 300... tho I very much want to before I see the movie. Batman kills the Joker and the Mutant Leader.


Also, Superman at the end of Strikes Again, is more or less about to murder Batman on the last panel. He decides that it's time to make it "his world" just like Batman. It does not fit characters AT ALL.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

you know you're right! near imortaltiy , the ability to stick to vertical serfaces and precognition aren't god like powers at all!

Bugs can stick to surfaces. Near mortality doesn't count for crap if you can drown in a swimming pool. A spider-sense doesn't save you from dying if you're dropped out of a plane. They are superpowers... but they aren't Godlike. Superman, GL, Flash, Wonder Woman, Silver Surfer, and Thor are gods, or the SUPER superheroes. This is a silly argument and I know you are plenty smart enough to understand exactly what I'm saying when I say that Batman is not God-like. He's not.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Opinion

That's not an opinion. Batman is a man who has no freaking superpowers. AT ALL. Out of the core 7 members of the Justice League, he is the one who has the highest chance of getting killed by a mere gun, fire, knife, etc.

 

[Agentsands77]

Yes, you SHATTERED my argument with your amazing debate on why Frank Miller's lead characters aren't all the same cliche stereotype. No but seriously Daredevil is a good point and I haven't read 300... tho I very much want to before I see the movie. Batman kills the Joker and the Mutant Leader.

Leonidas isn't all that different from what we've come to expect from Miller. It's essentially his same super-male stereotype (not unlike his Batman), just under a Spartan coat of paint.

 

[Punch]

Yes, but he's not a God. Just like it's a fact taht the suit is there to make him a "larger than life" symbol in the story, it's a fact that he's not on part with Gods. Just like Spidey or Wolverine. Not God-like. Still awesome characters.

No one said he's on a par with gods, at least I didn't. I just wanted to point out that he's not just a guy in a suit to anyone really.

 

[Punch]

That's not an opinion. Batman is a man who has no freaking superpowers. AT ALL. Out of the core 7 members of the Justice League, he is the one who has the highest chance of getting killed by a mere gun, fire, knife, etc.

But he won't get killed by guns or knives. We know this, so his supposed vulnerability is a moot point.

 

[Agentsands77]

But he won't get killed by a guns or knives. We know this, so his supposed vulnerability is a moot point.

Well, we know Indiana Jones won't get killed during his adventures, or James Bond, or most movie franchise heroes. Doesn't make them gods.

 

[Punch]

Well, we know Indiana Jones won't get killed during his adventures, or James Bond, or most movie franchise heroes. Doesn't make them gods.

Indiana Jones and James Bond also don't use a symbolic costume to invoke fear. If Batman was just guy in a suit, a ninja outfit would much more practical.
Once again my only contention was that there is not one factual way to write Batman. I don't even know where the topic of Batman as a god came from. It ceratinly isn't in DKR.

 

[Agentsands77]

Indiana Jones and James Bond also don't use a symbolic costume to invoke fear.

Of course not. Otherwise they'd be Batman. Doesn't mean he's any less human than they are.

Once again my only contention was that there is not one factual way to write Batman.

I don't believe anybody asserted as much. I do believe people were asserting that there are poor and/or wrong ways to write Batman.

I don't even know where the topic of Batman as a god came from. It ceratinly isn't in DKR.

Someone suggested the idea of Batman as a god to defend DKR.

 

[Punch]

I don't believe anybody asserted as much. I do believe people were asserting that there are poor and/or wrong ways to write Batman.

Exactly, and that is a matter of opinion.

Someone suggested the idea of Batman as a god to defend DKR.

That was a misinterpretation of what was said. I believe the poster was saying that superheros have taken the place of gods in our culture, not that Batman should be written as a god.

 

[Nepenthes]

What exactly is he even fighting for in these books? A city where mutants don't go around enforcing their views with violence because Batman does it himself? And when he tells Superman to remember the one man who beat him, does that mean Superman is supposed to forget the other two who helped?

He's fighting rid the city of mutants but more so to shake people out of apathy. They don't stand up for the themselves anymore, they take a casual view to corruption, violence, injustice etc. They make excuses for EVERYTHING rather than facing problems and making them right on their own.

He beats Superman in an ideological sense. He proved that people need a hero they can see, not one that operates in secret. By taking order in the city and then dying he becomes an immortal legend that will be far more powerful than he ever was in life, where Superman was willing to deny that heroes existed. Batman also beat Superman by 'dying' rather than letting himself be taken in and exposed. And in the end Superman was no match for his plans - Batman achieved everything h wanted.

He just seems like a slightly less evil Luthor in these books.

Lex Luthor isn't evil he's only concerned with himself and that's it. Batman sees a city sinking into pathetic acquiescence and puts himself on the line again when really he should be retiring in Florida.

Batman is not a killer and Miller has manipulated the reader into absolutely having no choice but to believe that killing Joker is the only option. Batman is above that and there are plenty of good arguments on why it's not weak, naive, or unrealistic not to kill your enemies. Miller just conveniently ignores them and exaggerates the consequences of not killing.

Killing the Joker.....well that was Miller acknowledging a pretty important question. Batman knows that by letting the Joker live he is letting more people die. Does he actually value his own 'no murder' principle more than he does the lives of others? Miller merely acknowledged that one day Batman might change his mind, and considering his life and career it wouldn't be hard to see why. This is the future, and he didn't just kill some 2nd tier villain. It was the ****en Joker on the day he murdered 200+ people only to spite Batmans existence.

Batman retired out of guilt because the Joker killed Robin, and then when he comes back, he causes the Joker kills MORE kids. How would that feel?

To just say 'Batman doesn't kill - end of story' is silly and lazy. It's worth examining and that's what Miller did.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

He beats Superman in an ideological sense. He proved that people need a hero they can see, not one that operates in secret. By taking order in the city and then dying he becomes an immortal legend that will be far more powerful than he ever was in life, where Superman was willing to deny that heroes existed. Batman also beat Superman by 'dying' rather than letting himself be taken in and exposed. And in the end Superman was no match for his plans - Batman achieved everything h wanted. .

Wait, Batman fakes his death no to inspire anybody... he dies attacking Superman, who doesn't want to fight. That's not going out in a blaze of glory like dying saving lives, it's just all his plan to "disappear" mixed with his jealousy of Superman. Batman then goes into hiding, in a way denying his OWN existance until he deems the time right to start "reforging the world". Superman could have taken him in and "exposed" him the moment he heard a heartbeat at the cemetery but he chose not to. Superman lets him get away with so much stuff all throughout the books that the reader is thinking "okay, Supes, just show him who's boss and move on" but he never does. I hate the end of Strikes Again when Superman is pretty much vowing to murder Batman and reforge the world to his own liking. So out of character...

To just say 'Batman doesn't kill - end of story' is silly and lazy. It's worth examining and that's what Miller did.

I respectfully disagree 100% and believe that to have Batman (and later Superman on the last panel of Strikes Again) give in to killing makes him just like all the others and it is the laziest possible thing to do. Miller wrote an absolutely ridiculously unrealistic and lopsided world where no matter what, Joker would get out and murder again no matter how many times he was brought to Justice. He backed the reader into a corner, forcing them to accept that killing the Joker was finally necessary and you'd be a naive moron not to agree with it. It's extremely forceful of Miller to shove his view down the reader's throat and openly spit on the "no-kill" rule of the two biggest icons in comic history. Life isn't as cut and dry as murderer goes to jail, breaks out, murders again, goes to jail, is released on technicality, murders again, forever and ever. How is it all that different from Marv killing the evil priest because he's sick and needs to be killed and there is no justice system that will hold him because of technicalities? It's just Frank Miller taking an iconic character, removing the ideals that he personally doesn't agree with, and forcing his own onto the character in their place.