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So Spaulding is Baby's father, which he was either a previous lover/husband to Mother Firefly. But Baby refers to Otis as her brother, so does that make him Spaulding's son, too? Or is he simply a half brother along with Rufus?
Otis isn't really Baby's brother. Otis was abused as a childhood and ran away and he ended up meeting Spaulding, who introduced him to Mamma Firefly, Baby, Rufus, Tiny... and Otis bonded with them so much that he considered them like family. Baby is like a sister to him so they call each other brother and sister, though there are no actual blood relations between them.
Baby, Tiny, and Rufus are the children of Spaulding and Mamma Firefly.
Now, the reason why I am responding to your comment above is because I have found (in both personal discussions, discussions on websites and in reviews) that many people seem to state that "you begin to feel for the Firefly clan by the end and think that they are victimized by Sheriff Wydell". When I hear people make statements of the like you did, it is the perfect testament that Rob Zombie has not only made a great western/horror/revenge/road movie, but in doing so he has also demonstrated the current situation in America where people (especially men) seem to relate to stylized violence. The Firelfly caln has committed hundreds of the most vile and sickening murders (well 70+ on record are discovered after the raid) that if one actually imagined them happening to one of their own loved ones would make one almost cry on the spot. However, because one of them is a complete babe (Baby) and another is an extremly funny foul-mouthed clown (Spaulding) many of the people who watch this movie relate to them more than a Sheriff who decides to punsih these people in the same way that they have punished countless victims before. I think it is very ironic that the majority of the audience for this movie seem to hate Sheriff Wydell and love the Firefly clan. Wow, Rob Zombie has truly shown that violence in America has been so glorified that people today root for the truly vile and evil people who have committed these rapes and murders rather than root for a man who is avenging the horrifc death of his brother and dozens and upon dozens of other innocent people. What have we become of as a society that many people relate more to one of the most sadistic, evil families in movie history simply because one of them is a hot woman and the other is a foul-mouthed clown and the two of them happen to enjoy tooty-fruity ice-cream and that there are a bunch of classic rock songs that play over their vile and evil murders and tortures?
It's not so much that people automatically identify with stylized murder - I think you're missing the point. The way Zombie portrays them, the Fireflys appear to be having the most fun throughout the picture. They're joking around, partying it up left and right, Capt. Spaulding gets a ton of the best lines in the film, the family bond between them is clear. They're likable DESPITE the fact that Zombie has also shown them to be depraved killers. Kinda like Freddy Krueger, for another example. Freddy's got lots of personality - he may be a child-killer, but you enjoy spending time with him anyway. He's typically more interesting in the Elm Street films than any of his victims.
I see this more as a choice of Rob Zombie's as writer/director, rather than an indication of our affinity for violence as a society. If Zombie hadn't worked so hard to make the Fireflys sympathetic - if he'd played them as straight, cold-blooded killers - people wouldn't have the same reaction, even with the classic rock songs. It's clear watching that the film's POV is that you should identify with these killers somewhat. And Wydell's torture at the end - well, if you pull that sequence out of context from the rest of the picture, it mirrors any other horror film where Wydell is the bad guy and the Fireflys are the victims. The scene where he chases Baby Girl could be the end sequence of about a zillion horror films, with her as the female victim running from the killer. All Zombie's done is flip it. And that IS pretty clever on his part. But it's also intentional, and works to get a reaction from the audience that's not as surprising as you make it sound.
rooting for the sheriff. She cheered during the torture scenes in the house and when they died.
?????
First off, I loved this movie (also really enjoyed House of 1000 Corpses), so I don't want to hear nonsense that I am stating what I am about to state because I didn't like the movie, couldn't handle the violence, etc, etc...
Now, the reason why I am responding to your comment above is because I have found (in both personal discussions, discussions on websites and in reviews) that many people seem to state that "you begin to feel for the Firefly clan by the end and think that they are victimized by Sheriff Wydell". When I hear people make statements of the like you did, it is the perfect testament that Rob Zombie has not only made a great western/horror/revenge/road movie, but in doing so he has also demonstrated the current situation in America where people (especially men) seem to relate to stylized violence. The Firelfly caln has committed hundreds of the most vile and sickening murders (well 70+ on record are discovered after the raid) that if one actually imagined them happening to one of their own loved ones would make one almost cry on the spot. However, because one of them is a complete babe (Baby) and another is an extremly funny foul-mouthed clown (Spaulding) many of the people who watch this movie relate to them more than a Sheriff who decides to punsih these people in the same way that they have punished countless victims before. I think it is very ironic that the majority of the audience for this movie seem to hate Sheriff Wydell and love the Firefly clan. Wow, Rob Zombie has truly shown that violence in America has been so glorified that people today root for the truly vile and evil people who have committed these rapes and murders rather than root for a man who is avenging the horrifc death of his brother and dozens and upon dozens of other innocent people. What have we become of as a society that many people relate more to one of the most sadistic, evil families in movie history simply because one of them is a hot woman and the other is a foul-mouthed clown and the two of them happen to enjoy tooty-fruity ice-cream and that there are a bunch of classic rock songs that play over their vile and evil murders and tortures?
Think again about why "the woman behind me was
rooting for the sheriff. She cheered during the torture scenes in the house and when they died.
" and why this bothered you because you may need a deep examination of your soul.
Hmm. I think it's just that violence is wrong no matter who's on the recieving end and Rob did a good job portraying that. To put it in lesser words, "Evil is in the eye of the beholder.".
Otis isn't really Baby's brother. Otis was abused as a childhood and ran away and he ended up meeting Spaulding, who introduced him to Mamma Firefly, Baby, Rufus, Tiny... and Otis bonded with them so much that he considered them like family. Baby is like a sister to him so they call each other brother and sister, though there are no actual blood relations between them.
Baby, Tiny, and Rufus are the children of Spaulding and Mamma Firefly.
Actually Tiny is Earl's kid. The guy who burned him alive. Was in Dr. Satan's place at the end with an axe chasing that girl...Who knows where Rufus came from. Mother Firefly was a prostitute for christ's sake. He's the most normal one there honestly.
Otis isn't really Baby's brother. Otis was abused as a childhood and ran away and he ended up meeting Spaulding, who introduced him to Mamma Firefly, Baby, Rufus, Tiny... and Otis bonded with them so much that he considered them like family. Baby is like a sister to him so they call each other brother and sister, though there are no actual blood relations between them.
Baby, Tiny, and Rufus are the children of Spaulding and Mamma Firefly.
Otis isn't really Baby's brother. Otis was abused as a childhood and ran away and he ended up meeting Spaulding, who introduced him to Mamma Firefly, Baby, Rufus, Tiny... and Otis bonded with them so much that he considered them like family. Baby is like a sister to him so they call each other brother and sister, though there are no actual blood relations between them.
Baby, Tiny, and Rufus are the children of Spaulding and Mamma Firefly.
Hmm. I think it's just that violence is wrong no matter who's on the recieving end and Rob did a good job portraying that. To put it in lesser words, "Evil is in the eye of the beholder.".
I definitely think this is a point Zombie is trying to get across. Whether in the name of the devil or an "avenging angel," sadistic violence and torture should make you uneasy, make you feel sympathy for the victim, etc.
There are levels to this picture, which automatically separates it from about 90% of the pablum crap that typically comes out of Hollywood - and also may account for a lot of the positive reviews from critics, who ordinarily pan movies like this.
It's not so much that people automatically identify with stylized murder - I think you're missing the point. The way Zombie portrays them, the Fireflys appear to be having the most fun throughout the picture. They're joking around, partying it up left and right, Capt. Spaulding gets a ton of the best lines in the film, the family bond between them is clear. They're likable DESPITE the fact that Zombie has also shown them to be depraved killers. Kinda like Freddy Krueger, for another example. Freddy's got lots of personality - he may be a child-killer, but you enjoy spending time with him anyway. He's typically more interesting in the Elm Street films than any of his victims.
I see this more as a choice of Rob Zombie's as writer/director, rather than an indication of our affinity for violence as a society. If Zombie hadn't worked so hard to make the Fireflys sympathetic - if he'd played them as straight, cold-blooded killers - people wouldn't have the same reaction, even with the classic rock songs. It's clear watching that the film's POV is that you should identify with these killers somewhat. And Wydell's torture at the end - well, if you pull that sequence out of context from the rest of the picture, it mirrors any other horror film where Wydell is the bad guy and the Fireflys are the victims. The scene where he chases Baby Girl could be the end sequence of about a zillion horror films, with her as the female victim running from the killer. All Zombie's done is flip it. And that IS pretty clever on his part. But it's also intentional, and works to get a reaction from the audience that's not as surprising as you make it sound.
No, that was my point exactly. People "feel" for these depraved murderers simply because Zombie made them have funny lines and that they had "fun" and people seem to look beyond what they are actually doing. Oh, they seemed to have a "family bond" - WHO CARES? They bonded over the sadistic torture and brutalization of innocent vitims. Actaully READ & TRY AND COMPREHEND my post as I gave Zombie total credit for making many people identify with these characters. I was simply pointing out how THE LUMBERJACK got mad at a woman in the theater for actually rooting for justice to triumph over evil. I mentioned the irony of how so many viewers of this movie relate to the villians more than justice because Zombie made one a total bade and the other a very funny clown and how it was taken to the extremene where THE LUMBERJACK actually got mad at someone in the theater who based how she viewed these people on their actions instead of their witty lines and hot buns.
Read what I wrote again and perhaps you will comprehend that I already pointed out "because one of them is a complete babe (Baby) and another is an extremly funny foul-mouthed clown (Spaulding) many of the people who watch this movie relate to them more than a Sheriff who decides to punsih these people in the same way that they have punished countless victims before" Yeah, I totally undrestood what Zombie did with this film. However, I also pointed out that the woman in the theater with THE LUMBERJACK was able to look beyond the tricks that Zombie used that typical American men couldn't look beyond and see this family for the depraved evil lunatics that they are, so she actaully realated to Wydell more because she was able to look beyond the funny lines, great 70s rock songs and a clown who is very funny.
Look into why you related to the Firefly clan and see if you can up with a real reason to relaet to them othetr than this nonsense that it was touching that Tiny made some sort of "heroic" return at the end of the film. Look at who Tiny is and who he was saving. You stated "It's clear watching that the film's POV is that you should identify with these killers somewhat" No, you shouldn't as evident by the woman in THE LUMBERJACK's theater. You really shouldn't relate to these people, but men in this country have no morals anymore that they do relate to them. If you are a "pure" soul or a person who has not been corrupted by the stylized violence, like the woman in the theater, Zombie's POV on the killers will not matter and the veiwer will not relate to them. Of course I get what Zombie achived witrh this film and he was only able to acheive this because of what has happened to men in this country (this includes film critics as this film is only 51% fresh at rottentomatoes). I get it far more than you can comprehend.
No, that was my point exactly. People "feel" for these depraved murderers simply because Zombie made them have funny lines and that they had "fun" and people seem to look beyond what they are actually doing. Oh, they seemed to have a "family bond" - WHO CARES? They bonded over the sadistic torture and brutalization of innocent vitims. Actaully READ & TRY AND COMPREHEND my post as I gave Zombie total credit for making many people identify with these characters. I was simply pointing out how THE LUMBERJACK got mad at a woman in the theater for actually rooting for justice to triumph over evil. I mentioned the irony of how so many viewers of this movie relate to the villians more than justice because Zombie made one a total bade and the other a very funny clown and how it was taken to the extremene where THE LUMBERJACK actually got mad at someone in the theater who based how she viewed these people on their actions instead of their witty lines and hot buns.
Read what I wrote again and perhaps you will comprehend that I already pointed out "because one of them is a complete babe (Baby) and another is an extremly funny foul-mouthed clown (Spaulding) many of the people who watch this movie relate to them more than a Sheriff who decides to punsih these people in the same way that they have punished countless victims before" Yeah, I totally undrestood what Zombie did with this film. However, I also pointed out that the woman in the theater with THE LUMBERJACK was able to look beyond the tricks that Zombie used that typical American men couldn't look beyond and see this family for the depraved evil lunatics that they are, so she actaully realated to Wydell more because she was able to look beyond the funny lines, great 70s rock songs and a clown who is very funny.
Look into why you related to the Firefly clan and see if you can up with a real reason to relaet to them othetr than this nonsense that it was touching that Tiny made some sort of "heroic" return at the end of the film. Look at who Tiny is and who he was saving. You stated "It's clear watching that the film's POV is that you should identify with these killers somewhat" No, you shouldn't as evident by the woman in THE LUMBERJACK's theater. You really shouldn't relate to these people, but men in this country have no morals anymore that they do relate to them. If you are a "pure" soul or a person who has not been corrupted by the stylized violence, like the woman in the theater, Zombie's POV on the killers will not matter and the veiwer will not relate to them. Of course I get what Zombie achived witrh this film and he was only able to acheive this because of what has happened to men in this country (this includes film critics as this film is only 51% fresh at rottentomatoes). I get it far more than you can comprehend.
Look, it's obvious you have your POV about "men in this country" and how they relate to violence - I don't think I missed that part of your message at all, and you obviously re-iterated it at the bottom of your rant. No one's going to change your already-set mind, so it's a waste of time discussing anything with you. I will say, however, that the charming or sympathetic killer isn't exactly a new thing in film. It's been done before lots of times - I gave you one example above. Keep going back in time beyond A Nightmare on Elm Street. Hitchcock...film noir - I guess we men have been tapped into violence for a while now.
I'd argue your lumberjack is a knuckle-dragger, and your woman missed the point of the picture if she was cheering for the angel of vengeance. But everyone has their own POV. Maybe you should consider that before reading too much into the squabblings at your local multiplex.
you guys are a riot to read! with your role playing made up backgrounds where in the hell did you read all these family tree confirmations? id love to hear. really i would...
and p.s. in House about tiny s father, if shes lying why do they cut to a flashback?
you guys are a riot to read! with your role playing made up backgrounds where in the hell did you read all these family tree confirmations? id love to hear. really i would...
and p.s. in House about tiny s father, if shes lying why do they cut to a flashback?
Actually the background can be found on just about any of their products. I have the soundtrack for example and it talks about it. Zombie's web site as well, the comics he had out (which they CANCELLED the rat bastards), and as mentioned, the action figures.
Look, it's obvious you have your POV about "men in this country" and how they relate to violence - I don't think I missed that part of your message at all, and you obviously re-iterated it at the bottom of your rant. No one's going to change your already-set mind, so it's a waste of time discussing anything with you. I will say, however, that the charming or sympathetic killer isn't exactly a new thing in film. It's been done before lots of times - I gave you one example above. Keep going back in time beyond A Nightmare on Elm Street. Hitchcock...film noir - I guess we men have been tapped into violence for a while now.
I'd argue your lumberjack is a knuckle-dragger, and your woman missed the point of the picture if she was cheering for the angel of vengeance. But everyone has their own POV. Maybe you should consider that before reading too much into the squabblings at your local multiplex.
The main diference between Nightmare On Elm Street movies (you can't include film noir ala Hitchcock, etc... as the majority of the criminals, even murderers, in film noir have a motivation beyond simple torture and slaughter) is that in Freddy films and the like, you have a "villian" who is pursuing victims thoughout the film. In Devil's Rejects, the killers are on the run which is completely opposite of about 99% of other horror films. BTW, Devils' Rejects is not a horror film, so comparing the Firefly clan with Freddy doesn't really work as they should be compared more to Kit & Holly from Badlands or Mickey & Mallory from NBK or even the group in the Wild Bunch.
The point is that in Badlands or even Natural Born Killers or The Wild Bunch, the films present the protaganists (murderers all of them) as sympathetic characters based on their backgrounds (okay not Mickey but certainly Mallory). So, when the audience "feels" or "sympathizes" with these characters, it is because a clear background to their motivations has been established and these characters have been developed so that the audience understands why they became what they became (murderers). Heck, even the background of what happened to Feddy Kruger is established so that the audience understands what made him turn into what he became. Now, in The Devil's Rejects, Rob Zombie was able to make a huge portoin of the audience of his film relate to a bunch of homicidal, sadistic murderers without EVER developing the history of these characters and perhaps what would have driven them into the life that they lead. So, when I argue that Rob Zombie was able to accomplish having a vast majority of the audience relate to these characters without ever giving the audience a "real/developed" reason to sympathize with these characters, I believe that I am correct in my assumption that the only reason that he was able to accomplish this task was because of how many people relate to stylized violence in today's society. See, I am not only examining the film but also then social climate of today's society and how Rob Zombie was able to accomplish the task of having the majority of the audience who enjoyed this film relate to these characters simply based on the fact that one was a hot babe and one was very funny clown. I believe that you are missing the point when you state that "that the charming or sympathetic killer isn't exactly a new thing in film" as, of course, it is not new in film. However, in those past instances, the motivations and past histories of what drove these charming or sympathetic killers to become what they become has been established in the film (for example what happened to Freddy Kruger when the town killed him or Mallory's father's constant abuse and child molestation during her youth).
So, I pose this question to you, what exactly in the Devil's Rejects or even H1000C, did Zombie establish that would allow the audience to sympathize or relate to the Firefly family that would allow one to root for a bunch of total sadistic, homicidal, people who seem to show absolutely no remorse for their actions nor any motivation for these actions beyond the simple pleasure of ritualistic torture, rape and murder? When you can find these examples of the development of the Firefly family's history and why they are what they are, get back to me....until then raffle down.
I think this film is brilliant because it is the perfect indication of just how far our society has fallen that people can sympathize with charcaters like the Firefly family where the the film gave no reason to relate to them other than the fact that they were funnier (and hot in Baby's case) than the force of good that pursuing them throughout the movie.
Okay, I don't know about everybody else but I didn't sympathize with them simply because one was hot, the other funny, and another badass. I sypathized because despite being psychotic hillbilly scum, they were just as human as the family they murdered in the hotel. That no matter who's hand the gun is in, killing is wrong and Zombie emphasized that. I wouldn't care less if they were ugly, boring folk. It's their family unity that got me. They are honestly just like any other america family. They have traditions, sadistic as they may be. They have fun and eat ice cream and joke around like anyone else and their buddies. Their concept of life and death is just f**ked up as all hell.
The way I see it, it's not who dies but the fact that someone DOES indeed die and that sucks. They can be punished for their crimes but nobody deserves death. No-one. And Rob Zombie did an awesome job showing that. If anything, someone cheering the execution of someone show's how little society has progressed. There's a quote I used to have in my sig from The Flash of all people and it went "The problem with an eye for an eye is everybody ends up blind.".
Okay, I don't know about everybody else but I didn't sympathize with them simply because one was hot, the other funny, and another badass. I sypathized because despite being psychotic hillbilly scum, they were just as human as the family they murdered in the hotel. That no matter who's hand the gun is in, killing is wrong and Zombie emphasized that. I wouldn't care less if they were ugly, boring folk. It's their family unity that got me. They are honestly just like any other america family. They have traditions, sadistic as they may be. They have fun and eat ice cream and joke around like anyone else and their buddies. Their concept of life and death is just f**ked up as all hell.
The way I see it, it's not who dies but the fact that someone DOES indeed die and that sucks. They can be punished for their crimes but nobody deserves death. No-one. And Rob Zombie did an awesome job showing that. If anything, someone cheering the execution of someone show's how little society has progressed. There's a quote I used to have in my sig from The Flash of all people and it went "The problem with an eye for an eye is everybody ends up blind.".
I hear yah...personally, I don't think that they were really developed as characters or as a family and that was why I posed the question about the character development or lack there of....
But it didn't characterize them, it's just random redneck ranting.
I love the film with a passion, I seen it for the 4th time today, and everytime that scene comes up I keep thinking "wtf did Zombie put this in the movie? "
I saw this yesterday. I honestly can't say yet how I felt about it. Its the first movie that I can ever remember seeing that honestly nauseated me, but I guess that's the whole point. It wasn't bad by any means, but I don't think I can say I like it either. Most of the actors were pretty decent, excpet for Sherri Moon Zombie, whose "psycho-Barbie" performance was about as convincing as Keanu Reeves starring in a remake of The Godfather.
I saw this yesterday. I honestly can't say yet how I felt about it. Its the first movie that I can ever remember seeing that honestly nauseated me, but I guess that's the whole point. It wasn't bad by any means, but I don't think I can say I like it either. Most of the actors were pretty decent, excpet for Sherri Moon Zombie, whose "psycho-Barbie" performance was about as convincing as Keanu Reeves starring in a remake of The Godfather.
I thought she was great. She makes the character far more intense and adds emotion to it(ie. when Wydell is tormenting her at the end)instead of just the over the top eccentric routine in Corpses.
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